OT - Rolex watch market

[mistermo]

Originally Posted by ntb1001

What is a superlative chronometer? Is it a quantifiable measure?

BTW, I think Doug F nailed it, and I'd be very curious who his "Rolex" builders are.

[Doug Fattic]

Originally Posted by mstateglfr

I bet it is difficult for those who dont build to know why you(and presumably others) view one builder as a Rolex type builder while another is a Casio or Citizen type builder.

I took Jeff Bock's frame class 4+ years ago and learned a ton. He is, to me, incredibly detailed and puts out a product that shows the time and effort involved.
At the same time, he doesnt do disc, doesnt fabricate a ton of frame bits, and doesnt manipulate tubes, so he is very much a niche builder at this point. When it seems most want bikes that are disc and electronic capable with unique fabricated features, is he a Rolex type builder?

Jeff Bock is a perfect example of building and painting a nicer made lugged frame than others. When Jeff and I were walking around the Philly show (also with Jeff's original teacher Mike Bornstien) I asked a couple of the other Rolex type of builders how long they took to make a frame and our group answer was about 100 hours. It is possible that a Timex builder can do a lugged frame in less than 8 hours. When I was apprenticing in Europe I found out it was common for a UK builder to make at least 1 a day. American Seiko builders average 16 ti 20 hours. This is the sweet spot for doing a reasonable job to get a reasonable financial return. I can tig an entire frame in less time than it takes me to finish file one lug.

I see a parallel comparing a lugged steel frame and a mechanical watch. I get why like Angry says there is a desire for a Rolex or similar. If you want technology you get an Apple or Garmin. I would think that those that love a Patek Philippe would be calling up Jeff and getting in line. Why is the Rolex buyer buying a Seiko bicycle instead? That is the mystery to me.

One of the problems of a steel custom frame w/discs is that the fork blades and chain stays needed are so much heavier and that just kills the sweet ride a custom frame can get with thin walled tubing.

I suggest that the type of frame Jeff and my framebuilding class students make is more like a "gentleman's bike". They are beautiful and refined and comfortable to ride. They aren't like the racing frames we made in the 70's. Well not usually anyway. My perception is that the same kind buyer that wants a Rolex would also want the kind of frame that can be made to be the most beautiful.

[wc1934]

Originally Posted by ntb1001

I love watches. I purchase a Rolex because I admire it for what it is, not that it tells time better or worse than a Casio or Timex.
It’s functional jewelry. A silver ring does the same job as a 18k band with huge diamond, but people get what they like.
I have 3 big expensive vices, Bikes(including Campagnolo parts)Watches, Camera equipment.
There are much cheaper, functionality equivalent alternatives, but I buy what I enjoy. Just personal decisions.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Exactly - Beauty is in the eye of the beholder - To me, fine jewelry (which some watches are) is like art.

[jghall]

Originally Posted by mistermo

What is a superlative chronometer? Is it a quantifiable measure?

BTW, I think Doug F nailed it, and I'd be very curious who his "Rolex" builders are.

Me too. Also somewhat agree with the sentiment. Though would maybe expand to custom builders.

While not to discount, buzz word like in cycling.

https://www.fhs.swiss/eng/2016_04_28_01_Rolex.html

[rwsaunders]

Originally Posted by ntb1001

I love watches. I purchase a Rolex because I admire it for what it is, not that it tells time better or worse than a Casio or Timex.
It’s functional jewelry. A silver ring does the same job as a 18k band with huge diamond, but people get what they like. I have 3 big expensive vices, Bikes (including Campagnolo parts) Watches, Camera equipment. There are much cheaper, functionality equivalent alternatives, but I buy what I enjoy. Just personal decisions. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

+1 and I don't think that you'll lose a dime on your Sea Dweller. You can't say that about many other hobbies (vices).

[rice rocket]

Originally Posted by mistermo

What is a superlative chronometer? Is it a quantifiable measure?

BTW, I think Doug F nailed it, and I'd be very curious who his "Rolex" builders are.

https://timeandtidewatches.com/what-...eter-standard/

[rice rocket]

This is an interesting article too, linked below.

https://timeandtidewatches.com/how-t...rollercoaster/

[FlashUNC]

Originally Posted by mistermo

What is a superlative chronometer? Is it a quantifiable measure?

BTW, I think Doug F nailed it, and I'd be very curious who his "Rolex" builders are.

+/- 2 seconds a day of a cased movement. At least that's how Rolex defines it.

Omega's METAS certification on their newest watches is between 0 and +5 seconds a day.

Jaeger LeCoultre's Master Control specification tests movements for 1,000 hours cased, across a range of positions and temperature ranges to their own accuracy standard as well.

So they all do it a bit differently.

[Ozz]

How much do the diamond engagement rings we buy for our wives cost?* I would guess $2000 to $50,000 would cover most of us here (I could be wrong....been out the market for 25 years). What use do those have other than they are pretty and they make her happy? Does it need to do anything other than that?

A watch is really the only "jewelry" most guys have.....buy what makes you happy (as long as all your other bills are paid too....)

* - I know, stereotyping, old-school, traditional, out of step...whatever criticism you want....still, lots of engagement rings are sold.

[NHAero]

Originally Posted by ntb1001

I love watches. I purchase a Rolex because I admire it for what it is, not that it tells time better or worse than a Casio or Timex.
It’s functional jewelry. A silver ring does the same job as a 18k band with huge diamond, but people get what they like.
I have 3 big expensive vices, Bikes(including Campagnolo parts)Watches, Camera equipment.
There are much cheaper, functionality equivalent alternatives, but I buy what I enjoy. Just personal decisions.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

This makes sense to me. If you can afford it, you get what to you is the best, and enjoy it on multiple levels. And as the price of the object goes up, you get to be a member of an increasingly more exclusive group.

My favorite Thoreau quote is "A man is rich in proportion to the number of things he can afford to let alone." I am happy that an iPhone serves me as both a timepiece and a camera. Alas, it's a poor excuse for a bike, and so that's where my money goes

My analogy to your Rolex is how I feel about my new Bingham, vs. the previous custom all road frame I had. The ride is so similar, as the geo on both bikes is virtually identical, so the handling and fit is the same (and I moved all the components from one to the other.) But everywhere I look on the Bingham, it shows an unwavering pursuit of excellence and perfection, and that is very pleasing, even while JRA.

[JedB]

Originally Posted by mistermo

What is a superlative chronometer? Is it a quantifiable measure?

BTW, I think Doug F nailed it, and I'd be very curious who his "Rolex" builders are.

The COSC standard is pretty rigorous.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/COSC

Think back to when manufacturing the small gears/parts inside a watch were NOT machined by CNC. To get those exacting calculations correctly translated into a part that met those standards was very impressive, and an indirect implication of quality craftsmanship.

[sg8357]

So we have Rolex builders and Timex builders.

Peter Weigle would be a Roger W. Smith builder ?

[retropean]

I've seen a lot of stories like this. But looking at the watchcharts.com chart (and furthest out I can see is 6M view), prices are downward trending but still only roughly in line with Feb 2022 prices, a level substantially higher than anytime in the past - even Feb was 10% higher than Jan 2022. I'm not sure how much lower it will go but it's not exactly fire sale territory.

[krooj]

Eh - I wouldn't equate Rolex with a boutique frame builder. I tend to think of Rolex as akin to Moots: a proven, relatively invariant, volume producer of a high quality item that will hold its value.

The funny thing is that I've more or less settled on my 116610LN as what works on my wrist. It tells me the time, date, is super reliable, not flashy, and unlike an Apple Watch, not a constant annoyance. The whole North American ethos of manly men eschewing all frivolities is really sad and puritanical; enjoy your life.

OP - that's a chonker of a watch that not too many have the wrist size to pull off. 'grats!

[Pdxbmw]

I’m glad the prices on the grey market are slowly coming back down. The AD/grey market relationships ruin it for the guy that just wants to buy a watch. I’ll stick with my Aquis until used prices drop below MSRP.