"Experts"

[JMT3]

First up my rules are that fit is the most important thing if you want to go fast. If your fit is correct then you are comfortable and can push your bike fast and sustain it.

2nd I too at 6 foot tall went to 165’s and like it. I converted all my bikes and went shorter on the gravel and mtb but 170mm.

I like my 5000S at 25mm which when I measure with my calipers and once stretched are really 27mm. Never went wider on the road and don’t plan to unless I am not comfortable. Do ride 83 psi front and 79 psi rear. Lower pressure definitely helps.

[fried bake]

My favorite was: “You can climb anything with a compact 11-32”.

Cycling had to invent a whole new genre (gravel) to justify what should be fairly obvious: when climbing, lower gears are better for a lot of people—not just folks on touring bikes.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[mcteague]

Originally Posted by fiamme red

If you live in Arizona, Pluto is still a planet.

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/arizona...-not-a-planet/

Scroopy noopers would like a word with Arizona.

Rick and Morty Pluto Is A Planet
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zvcXC-VEUXQ

Tim

[Tandem Rider]

I think fit is the most important part of a bike. For some people, fit is a moving target as their body ages, they move things around. I think some people just want to follow the latest trends set by the "experts". There was a study done at the OTC in the 80s, the "experts" of the day had established the ideal seat position due to a bunch of body measurements. They tested everyone in their current position with an ergometer, adjusted the bikes to the "new and improved" position, gave everyone some time to adapt, re-tested and found that almost everyone was just as powerful in their old position as the new one. My takeaway was to establish a painfree, powerful, aero position and leave it there. I still use the same position from the 80s.

Look at the positions of guys racing from the 70s, 80s, 90s, etc. they are all still pretty close to what we are seeing now in the 2020s, but their positions are being poohpoohed just because of some tweaks here and there.

My gravel bike came with 172.5 cranks instead of my usual 175s, I'm still trying to make friends with them, but it is getting better.

[Nomadmax]

My biggest problem, and asset, is that I don't know what I don't know. So that makes me go down the rabbit hole of research until I find:

1 The latest thing is BS

2 The latest thing works 100% and is a massive improvement

3 The latest thing works, but not 100% and not in all situations

4 There's no clear answer the latest thing works or doesn't work

Number 4 makes me a little sick because I know there will be a thousand forum threads, full of world class arguments, for and against. The good news is these threads, before they get locked, often drift to subjects that have nothing to do with the original post and I learn something. Like, where does mohair come from?

[OtayBW]

All I know is that I sure as hull am not riding my 700x23 Vredsteins at 145psi anymore. That is all....

[sweitee]

Originally Posted by fiamme red

If you live in Arizona, Pluto is still a planet.

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/arizona...-not-a-planet/

In Illinois too - https://fox2now.com/news/illinois/pl...over-illinois/

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pluto#Classification

Also true in New Mexico and possibly California

[nmrt]

This "truth" is actually a lie as well. 120 psi (or even more!) 23s are faster, in the wooden track.

On a tangential note, are the truths revealed to us via science not truths anymore because they could be revised or changed later? No, they are still truths that we know as best we can. One cannot (or should not) discard these truths simply because they will be revised later. If one does, how are they going to find truths? Via beliefs and opinions? I would rather pick the scientific truth over opinions and beliefs any day.

Discarding scientific truths by the populace because they could be revised later and then believing something else with even less evidence captures the zeitgeist of our USA and perhaps even this world. It is depressingly sad that in the age of internet, anyone with a internet connection and a computer can expound their beliefs as truths and have hordes and hordes of people believe it as truths.

Originally Posted by bicycletricycle

I see very few “to the best of our knowledges”


We have very limited, possibly no access to truth. This means our “truths” will always turn out wrong or at least incomplete.

Nobody needs to be blamed for that.

The problem is when people are misled or bullied by overconfident “experts”. We should all recognize the limits of our own knowledge and knowledge in general

A reminder, 65 psi 700x35 tires are no slower than 120 psi 23s. We were all
amazingly wrong.

[spoonrobot]

Originally Posted by bicycletricycle

I see very few “to the best of our knowledges”


We have very limited, possibly no access to truth. This means our “truths” will always turn out wrong or at least incomplete.

Nobody needs to be blamed for that.

The problem is when people are misled or bullied by overconfident “experts”. We should all recognize the limits of our own knowledge and knowledge in general

A reminder, 65 psi 700x35 tires are no slower than 120 psi 23s. We were all
amazingly wrong.

The fact that brings us all back down to Earth: at what point in time would you be able to make this statement and have it be a broadly true statement?

I know it wasn't true in the recent past because I went out and bought the fastest 700cx35 tires I could find, and they were significantly slower than regular high-level 700cx23 tires.

So, it apparently wasn't true in 2014, or 2004, or 1994. So 2019? 2021?

Is it broadly true today?

Does this heuristic apply to anything else?

For example, at what point does bicycle geometry (and the ergonomics of the average cycling population) change such that KOPS no longer applies, if it ever did?

The point is not to nitpick, but to understand that looking back with the technology we have today as well as the iterative experimentation - almost always carried out by others! Have you done your rolldown testing and quantified the results for upload to the HiveMind today? - makes it seem like "we" are so much smarter than everyone that came before. However, engaging with the past time periods, at their level of technology and understanding, often makes it clear we would be able to do little better.

If you had to rewrite this book, today - how do you think it would be received in 50 years?

[spoonrobot]

"Knees and ankles absolutely need to be covered below 60°f or long-term damage will result"

Still hearing this one IRL when I show up to race in Feb with bare legs.

[benb]

Originally Posted by spoonrobot

"Knees and ankles absolutely need to be covered below 60°f or long-term damage will result"

Still hearing this one IRL when I show up to race in Feb with bare legs.

This one always blows me away.

I see so many riders that think 55 degrees means booties + thermal tights + winter cycling jacket, etc.. it is a light switch for some people, full winter or full summer. It was in the mid 50s yesterday and I wore shorts and arm warmers and was slightly cold at first and then warmed up, just about everyone I saw was dressed how I dress for 40 degrees.

I have like 4-5 different getups I go through and 5 degrees changes what I wear. I find being overdressed much more miserable than slightly underdressed.

[bicycletricycle]

Hour record is being set on 27's now so maybe even on the track 23's aren't king, even on the track.

I am not prescribing nihilism, just that we should all be a lot more humble about what we know and much more accommodating with those we disagree with.

Originally Posted by nmrt

This "truth" is actually a lie as well. 120 psi (or even more!) 23s are faster, in the wooden track.

On a tangential note, are the truths revealed to us via science not truths anymore because they could be revised or changed later? No, they are still truths that we know as best we can. One cannot (or should not) discard these truths simply because they will be revised later. If one does, how are they going to find truths? Via beliefs and opinions? I would rather pick the scientific truth over opinions and beliefs any day.

Discarding scientific truths by the populace because they could be revised later and then believing something else with even less evidence captures the zeitgeist of our USA and perhaps even this world. It is depressingly sad that in the age of internet, anyone with a internet connection and a computer can expound their beliefs as truths and have hordes and hordes of people believe it as truths.

[bicycletricycle]

To be clear, I am also skeptical about the 35 result. I have no idea what the ideal tire size / pressure / construction is for rolling on smooth roads and it seems like nobody does right now.

I wonder how people can be getting such different results with such a seemingly simple question.

Cycling is not the only pursuit to be plagues with such difficulties, the "replication crisis" in the sciences shows that even the professionals are having some problems with what they think they know.

I don't think we are any smarter than people who came before. I think we mostly just go around in circles.

Originally Posted by spoonrobot

The fact that brings us all back down to Earth: at what point in time would you be able to make this statement and have it be a broadly true statement?

I know it wasn't true in the recent past because I went out and bought the fastest 700cx35 tires I could find, and they were significantly slower than regular high-level 700cx23 tires.

So, it apparently wasn't true in 2014, or 2004, or 1994. So 2019? 2021?

Is it broadly true today?

Does this heuristic apply to anything else?

For example, at what point does bicycle geometry (and the ergonomics of the average cycling population) change such that KOPS no longer applies, if it ever did?

The point is not to nitpick, but to understand that looking back with the technology we have today as well as the iterative experimentation - almost always carried out by others! Have you done your rolldown testing and quantified the results for upload to the HiveMind today? - makes it seem like "we" are so much smarter than everyone that came before. However, engaging with the past time periods, at their level of technology and understanding, often makes it clear we would be able to do little better.

If you had to rewrite this book, today - how do you think it would be received in 50 years?

[benb]

I find you can't really separate tires from where you ride.

Fact of the matter IMO is the roads where I live are not the same as they were 20 years ago. They have gotten dramatically worse.

Stuff gets repaved but it seems slow and the specific routes I like to ride due to avoiding car traffic sure seem to have gotten a lot worse, lots of places you need to stop pedaling, level the pedals, and almost get into "MTB attack position" if you don't have big tires.

Not potholes, 25-50' x 10' sections where the entire road is a minefield of 100 potholes that go down to different layers of the road and it feels a little sketchy to ride all the way out to the double yellow to go around it.

[EB]

Originally Posted by bicycletricycle

the "replication crisis" in the sciences shows that even the professionals are having some problems with what they think they know.

Most of the so-called replication crisis is in the social sciences, such as experimental psych.