Serotta: Return of the Legend

[Retinadoc]

I’m not going to comment on the new Legend or its price point. But one indisputable fact is that Serotta was directly responsible for educating many of the frame builders that have continued to innovate bicycle design and production. No.22, Dave Kirk, Kelly Bedford, come immediately to mind, and there are many others throughout the industry. Respect.

I wish them nothing but success on this reboot.

[KonaSS]

Originally Posted by BumbleBeeDave

So I'm just puzzled at the snarky reception the name seems to get every time it's mentioned here in a way I just don't see with other custom frame builders.

If you see faults with them, explain intelligently why you feel that way. But have a little class and respect.

BBD

I think the comments are primarily driven by the price. That website is so bad that I can't even find a price that corresponds to a build. But if what has been reported is that a complete bike with mid level group (Sram Force) and crappy aluminum wheels is $14k, that is at the very top of the market. And if you are not familiar with Serotta 1.0, and let's face it, it has been so long that anyone under ~45 is not really going to be, then you need to demonstrate your credibility and provide a premium experience across the board.


That starts with a tasteful and useful website that has pictures of the bike, build kits, prices and more. For comparison, see this page https://22bicycles.com/products/2024...42622066294957 Note that the Ultegra level bike with Enve bars, and wheels is $12,145.

It would also help if they would show up at a handbuilt show that gets coverage by the press, so people can see the bikes. Maybe they have, but I haven't seen them. Then send a bike James Huang or something to test.

As pointed out elsewhere in this thread, they have done almost zero to gain creditability as a top tier custom shop in 2024 if you aren't already familiar with their work from 20 years ago. So it does feel like they are trying to coast on a reputation that only lives within a small niche that is aging out every day.

[Doug Fattic]

I've been building and painting frames almost as long as Ben. My assumption is that Ben based his pricing on a standard business model like everyone should if they understand how to conduct a business. He didn't base it on typical market pricing. His pricing reveals that custom frame and paint is very undervalued. If a builder/painter (when deciding what to charge) added up all his costs and all of his time to run a business (not just bench or booth time) and then expects to get at least $25 an hour and also pay for health insurance, that cost would surprise people.

I've taught fraembuilding and painting classes continuously since 1976. I was a high school teacher prior. About half of my students come from some kind of art background (and engineering too). What I don't get are business types unless it is for puttering around after they retire. Pricing based on competition just doesn't work for building and painting if one expects a decent outcome. While a number of my students have become pros (hanging out a shingle and taking money for work), almost no one has continued long term because they can't make enough.

[Kirk007]

Originally Posted by Doug Fattic

My assumption is that Ben based his pricing on a standard business model like everyone should if they understand how to conduct a business. He didn't base it on typical market pricing. .... Pricing based on competition just doesn't work for building and painting if one expects a decent outcome.

But your pricing has to be competitive, unless you are clearly offering a more valuable product (or one that commands a price pemium based on cache and exclusivity - which will require a good marketing plan and budget), if not, then perhaps your business model just isn't sustainable. I've run two small businesses; different industry to be sure but the importance of a differentiating niche was crucial to our success. What is it for Serotta?

If your not someone whose been familiar with the brand from its glory days then what would drive someone to Serotta today? The only differentiating feature would appear to be the ultratube swaging concept, the value of which is famously debated amongst ti builders, and a great name (ATMO).

The pricing appears on par with Moots and probably Firefly; but significantly higher than No. 22, Bingham, Bedford, Hampsten, Bixxis (going from recollection), DeRosa, Holland (maybe maybe not), Seven (maybe not on their XX frame full custom). It does appear a bit less than Passoni which seems to be the luxury ti brand in the marketplace.

I think there is a world where their pricing doesn't hold them back. When you are in the $14k price range for a bike, I'm guessing that 1k here or there doesn't matter to a certain class of buyers. But you gotta be able to sell it.

I hope Serotta has a good budget for, and a good marketing plan that can drive potential purchasers to it. I think it's clear that many of us continue to have a soft spot for the brand, but this is a pretty small audience. I imagine their offering(s) are very nice bikes, they always have been. But so are the competitions, and that's just thinking about the custom ti builders.

Finally, I guess it depends alot on how the company defines success (beyond keeping the lights on).

[charliedid]

Originally Posted by Kirk007

But your pricing has to be competitive, unless you are clearly offering a more valuable product (or one that commands a price pemium based on cache and exclusivity - which will require a good marketing plan and budget), if not, then perhaps your business model just isn't sustainable. I've run two small businesses; different industry to be sure but the importance of a differentiating niche was crucial to our success. What is it for Serotta?

If your not someone whose been familiar with the brand from its glory days then what would drive someone to Serotta today? The only differentiating feature would appear to be the ultratube swaging concept, the value of which is famously debated amongst ti builders, and a great name (ATMO).

The pricing appears on par with Moots and probably Firefly; but significantly higher than No. 22, Bingham, Bedford, Hampsten, Bixxis (going from recollection), DeRosa, Holland (maybe maybe not), Seven (maybe not on their XX frame full custom). It does appear a bit less than Passoni which seems to be the luxury ti brand in the marketplace.

I think there is a world where their pricing doesn't hold them back. When you are in the $14k price range for a bike, I'm guessing that 1k here or there doesn't matter to a certain class of buyers. But you gotta be able to sell it.

I hope Serotta has a good budget for, and a good marketing plan that can drive potential purchasers to it. I think it's clear that many of us continue to have a soft spot for the brand, but this is a pretty small audience. I imagine their offering(s) are very nice bikes, they always have been. But so are the competitions, and that's just thinking about the custom ti builders.

Finally, I guess it depends alot on how the company defines success (beyond keeping the lights on).

Well put.

"If your not someone whose been familiar with the brand from its glory days then what would drive someone to Serotta today? The only differentiating feature would appear to be the ultratube swaging concept, the value of which is famously debated amongst ti builders, and a great name (ATMO)."

Marketing Marketing Marketing - Otherwise nothing is driving people who are unfamiliar. How would anyone even know these bikes exist outside the vacuum?

I mean this with admiration and respect to Ben but it's like late 70's Rock Bands who were popular BITD playing State Fairs and casino's because it's what they do. Play music.

Ben makes/sells bikes.

[fogrider]

spot on. in today's economy and environment, a bike builder can not compete on straight value and performance. if someone wants the best bang for the buck, they would just buy a used Trek/Specialized/Cannondale or whatever with Ultegra and buy some carbon wheels from China. If you can offer something custom and beautiful that very few will want, you need enough orders to fill your time. You don't need to build to compete with what others offer. Then the question is what do you charge. Again, the key is that those that want it are very loyal and willing to pay a premium for something custom and beautiful. And you charge enough to make a few bucks and stay in business. it's not easy to create this magic sauce, an example of this is Vanilla/Speedvagen. I don't know how many are willing to pay top dollar for a new Serotta Legend, but I can see that there could be some magic sauce there.

Originally Posted by Doug Fattic

I've been building and painting frames almost as long as Ben. My assumption is that Ben based his pricing on a standard business model like everyone should if they understand how to conduct a business. He didn't base it on typical market pricing. His pricing reveals that custom frame and paint is very undervalued. If a builder/painter (when deciding what to charge) added up all his costs and all of his time to run a business (not just bench or booth time) and then expects to get at least $25 an hour and also pay for health insurance, that cost would surprise people.

I've taught fraembuilding and painting classes continuously since 1976. I was a high school teacher prior. About half of my students come from some kind of art background (and engineering too). What I don't get are business types unless it is for puttering around after they retire. Pricing based on competition just doesn't work for building and painting if one expects a decent outcome. While a number of my students have become pros (hanging out a shingle and taking money for work), almost no one has continued long term because they can't make enough.

[skouri1]

I think the problem has always been reading the room. For a while what they were selling sold. Then it didn't. And it still didn't. Now I don't think it will, particularly in an era when there are a ton of excellent options and overstocked inventory from company's naive presumption that the covid bike boom would outlast the pandemic . I own a concours ti. I had an HSGIT and a tdf lugged '87 frame once upon a time. They did cool things. They pushed the envelope. They also sold a lot of questionable bikes just to make the sale. I'm not sure there are enough diehard serotta fans to buy these. As they have been plotting reboot after reboot , other builders have continued building , adapting and innovating--including many of their former employees. I'd rather take on of theirs than a serotta any day. Hell, I'd rather ride a specialized. And over that , my Ritte. I respect Serotta. But sometimes it's time to tell someone you love that it's time to let go.

[duff_duffy]

I like playing the what else could you get….for the same price as one of these new Serottas you could get a new Firefly e-bike and 2 or 3 used classic Serottas.

[NHAero]

Originally Posted by Buzz Killington

This is my issue. Serotta doesn’t make ANYTHING anymore. Tubing and butting overseas, tubing cutting/coping/mitering farmed out. Welding and brazing farmed out. Paint farmed out. So strictly a design studio, which admittedly has lots of experience. Wish him the best. Met him in the 80’s when I was a member of the Adirondack Spokes and living in Queensbury. Nice guy and great bikes. Even thought about getting a job there at one point.

I just think of the experience I had with Brad Bingham, where I received the benefit of all of his experience and skill directly, no middle men or subcontractors, and at what would be a lower price point than this new Legend. So I don't see the value proposition here. And I did own a second hand Concours Ti at one point.

I'm not a dentist but my criteria for fit and handling drove me to a custom, so I was willing to pay quite a chunk of coin for the bike (the frame when the dust settled was a bit over $5K).

[572cv]

Originally Posted by Doug Fattic

I've been building and painting frames almost as long as Ben. My assumption is that Ben based his pricing on a standard business model like everyone should if they understand how to conduct a business. He didn't base it on typical market pricing. His pricing reveals that custom frame and paint is very undervalued. If a builder/painter (when deciding what to charge) added up all his costs and all of his time to run a business (not just bench or booth time) and then expects to get at least $25 an hour and also pay for health insurance, that cost would surprise people.

I've taught fraembuilding and painting classes continuously since 1976. I was a high school teacher prior. About half of my students come from some kind of art background (and engineering too). What I don't get are business types unless it is for puttering around after they retire. Pricing based on competition just doesn't work for building and painting if one expects a decent outcome. While a number of my students have become pros (hanging out a shingle and taking money for work), almost no one has continued long term because they can't make enough.

Doug, this is a very relevant and thoughtful post. Thank you for putting this discussion into a different context.

[9tubes]

I think maybe I am not up on the latest news. I thought Ben Serotta sold out the company about 10 years ago. Who owns the company that is the subject of this discussion?

[huck*this]

Originally Posted by cmg

Is there a photo of the prototype? Would of been nice if the website had posted one.

I believe this is a photo of the new Legend.

[rapid_ti]

I don't think Ben has any desire to build up a huge business. He seems to be producing small quantities with a small team, all of whom have no desire to retire.
By the way, he exhibited at the Philly Bike Expo, someone here in the forum reported on it and posted pictures.

I decided on a Serotta because he knows bike fitting like no other and because my wishes were realized 100%. And no, I'm not a dentist!
I presented the result here:
https://forums.thepaceline.net/showthread.php?t=292597

[wkeller79]

It's obscene to be charging that much for a bicycle and then to slap on that hideous stem with weird spacers.... it doesn't suit the frame at all, which is a really nice looking frame.

If you're charging that much, it should include a custom steel or ti stem at the very least. And probably a seatpost too!

[charliedid]

[QUOTE=huck*this;3439778]I believe this is a photo of the new Legend.

Certainly producing great looking, and can only assume great riding bikes.