Mapdec banned by Shimano

[oldpotatoe]

Originally Posted by fourflys

one reason surely is that the Campy electronic groupset is the Super Record Wireless at around $4,300.. versus cheapest Shimano 105 Di2 or SRAM Rival AXS (if you want 2x) or Apex (1x).. you could buy an entire bike with Apex plus some nice wheels for what the Campy set costs.. probably could do the same for 105 Di2 almost..

also, unless you want the Ekar gravel groupset, the largest cassette seems to be an 11-34.. that might be fine for a lot of folks, but not all for sure.. no idea if the Shimano/SRAM cassettes will work with current Campy stuff though..

Finally, $1,500 for Chorus hydro vs. $700 for 105 hydro (non- Di2)..
https://www.eurobikeparts.com/

I've had Campy 10 and the first gen Campy 11 and both were fine, but they do have some limitations..

Not always about $. Apples to Apples...Chorus Hydro more like Ultregra or even DA, NOT 105, if you look at materials and the small points..... But in your Campag 10 and Campag 11..how were the cranks and front ders? Nothing split, broke, dropped chain ALL the time? I'm guessing...

[fa63]

This is interesting. I happen to service several of my riding buddies bikes, and several of them have SRAM Red AXS on it with 20K+ miles and no issues. And every time I have needed support from SRAM, they have been very helpful...

Originally Posted by rice rocket

Almost like religion at this point.

After my second SRAM Red RD wore out in 4000 miles, I stopped giving them my money. There is no warranty coverage , there are no service parts, you just throw it in the trash.

[shadco]

Originally Posted by oldpotatoe

Not always about $. Apples to Apples...Chorus Hydro more like Ultregra or even DA, NOT 105, if you look at materials and the small points..... But in your Campag 10 and Campag 11..how were the cranks and front ders? Nothing split, broke, dropped chain ALL the time? I'm guessing...

This stuff is just lovely Just kinda wish they still had something Ergobrain like solution for their newer mech systems.



.

[peanutgallery]

This is where we're at. The only thing I learned from the training is that you weren't supposed to clean the old 11 speed stuff with anything other than Dawn and unicorn tears. Like where was that memo? Those things have been tossed in the parts cleaner since inception

Originally Posted by bikerboy337

My god what’s going on with this forum lately… post about the shimano crank recall and one shops experience… and it turns into SRAM and Campy bashing and name calling….

I found their experience informative and I think their stance that they are not metallurgical experts is spot on… to expect a bike shop to inspect seems crazy to me, this isn’t an issue with a part that isn’t working (broken FD or rd, or some other small issue), this is a safety issue. If I were a bike shop I would want no part in telling my customer their crank is perfectly safe, no matter what the indemnification looks like….

[benb]

Originally Posted by vespasianus

I am finding the SRAM stuff to be meh as well. Always had issues with the older MTB SRAM stuff as my RD would always break - never had a problem with Shimano and went back to them.

The SRAM stuff on our Diverge - granted it is mostly Eagle Axs stuff -does not seem robust. Less than a year in - with less than 1000 miles and we need a new chain and new BB. Brakes squeal like SRAM brakes always have, but otherwise work fine.

Mixed bag for me. I found early SRAM Road stuff to be horrible. Like 1/4 or less the longevity of 105 or better Shimano stuff. I had first gen Rival and it was horrific. Almost the entire groupset was worn out after less than 2 seasons. Broken Brifters. Rear Derailleur cage was coming apart because the design could allow the chain to jump off the pulley wheel and jam. Chainrings were the noisiest ones I ever had and they never wanted to stay tight. Front derailleur wore out from cable changes since they threaded the aluminum instead of inserting a steel nut. Just terrible, and they had marketed it all as rebuildable/repairable and the LBS basically said they called and SRAM said it was all a lie. That bike actually had 53/39 and the front shifting was never a problem, obviously front shifting became horrible when 50/34 became more popular. The brakes were also really excellent but the SRAM logos came right off in cleaning.

But their MTB stuff back in the day was *amazing* for me. At least one of my bikes was totally transformed by taking Shimano stuff off and putting SRAM on back when SRAM switched to "exact actuation" because the Shimano stuff was so sensitive that suspension travel could cause the rear derailleur to skip. There were tons of hacks and constant tuning to make Shimano not skip but then SRAM it was just like set and forget and it was perfect all the time.

And I had an X.0 group that was absolutely unkillable. Rode it for more than a decade in all weather wtih minimal maintenance. Even the chain and cassette lasted way way longer than they I ever thought they should. I wasn't even good about cleaning the bike.

But my current bike has 1x Eagle and that chain and cassette seem like they are having trouble after 2 years. No idea what mileage it is, but it's starting to skip on those tiny little cogs that you ride in way too often since the bike has a 30t ring. The derailleur and shifter are fine though at least. And that current bike I'm much better about cleaning. I am fairly happy with my SRAM brakes after ditching the organic pads. They are quiet and powerful, good feel, etc..

My recalled cranks were totally fine all the years I was on them and then were problematic after inspection. I think these Shimano cranks are very very sensitive to the chainring installation being space flight grade in the factory. They need to be perfectly clean and you need a damn fine torque wrench setup to get them perfectly torqued evenly across the bolts, and then they will be fine. The LBS that inspected them was not capable of putting them back together with that level of precision.

[fourflys]

Originally Posted by oldpotatoe

Not always about $. Apples to Apples...Chorus Hydro more like Ultregra or even DA, NOT 105, if you look at materials and the small points..... But in your Campag 10 and Campag 11..how were the cranks and front ders? Nothing split, broke, dropped chain ALL the time? I'm guessing...

I was comparing Chorus to 105 based on the Super Record, Record, Chorus paradigm.. also, the Ultegra Di2 is the same price as mech Chorus as a comparison..(at the website I linked prior) the buyer would have to determine if the Campy premium is worth it.. but the question was something like "where is Campy?" For most riders, if you can get e-shifting for the same price of mech, most would go for e-shifitng.. you know I'm not a Campy-hater, although their thumb shifter does occasionally bother me when my arthritis flairs up.. but I also really like being able to dumb 3 or 4 gears when I crest a hill..

As far as my experience with Campy, can't say anything but good stuff about it.. BUT, I also have the same experience with all of the Shimano and SRAM stuff I've owned (datign back to 2007ish Shimano/SRAM).. maybe I don't put the miles in that other folks that have issues do, but I still haven't had any issues with any properly adjusted groupset I've had..

[EB]

Lower end Eagle chains (GX) wear out pretty fast. The higher end (XO1 etc.) last a really long time.

The flat top chains are even more durable.

Eagle cassettes are also very durable - again, with the higher end variety lasting a lot longer.

Eagle chainrings on the other hand are not durable, and in my experience you can go through several of them before the chain wears out. SRAM does sell a slightly heavier stainless steel chainring that addresses this.

[rice rocket]

Originally Posted by fa63

This is interesting. I happen to service several of my riding buddies bikes, and several of them have SRAM Red AXS on it with 20K+ miles and no issues. And every time I have needed support from SRAM, they have been very helpful...

Consider yourself lucky then.

I'm not sure there are many mechanical Red RDs left that survived actual mileage. And yes, they all eventually break. And no, there are no available parts.

https://weightweenies.starbike.com/f...c.php?t=134965

[DrakeRamoray]

Originally Posted by openwheelracing

Mapdec rubs me the wrong way. They seem quite arrogant and elitist. Their way for the high way. Whatever they sell is leagues better than others. Weird obsession against Giant as well. The guy seems like a decent mechanic at least.

Rage bait. It’s a common technique to boost engagement.

[vespasianus]

Originally Posted by benb

Mixed bag for me. I found early SRAM Road stuff to be horrible. Like 1/4 or less the longevity of 105 or better Shimano stuff. I had first gen Rival and it was horrific. Almost the entire groupset was worn out after less than 2 seasons. Broken Brifters. Rear Derailleur cage was coming apart because the design could allow the chain to jump off the pulley wheel and jam. Chainrings were the noisiest ones I ever had and they never wanted to stay tight. Front derailleur wore out from cable changes since they threaded the aluminum instead of inserting a steel nut. Just terrible, and they had marketed it all as rebuildable/repairable and the LBS basically said they called and SRAM said it was all a lie. That bike actually had 53/39 and the front shifting was never a problem, obviously front shifting became horrible when 50/34 became more popular. The brakes were also really excellent but the SRAM logos came right off in cleaning.

But their MTB stuff back in the day was *amazing* for me. At least one of my bikes was totally transformed by taking Shimano stuff off and putting SRAM on back when SRAM switched to "exact actuation" because the Shimano stuff was so sensitive that suspension travel could cause the rear derailleur to skip. There were tons of hacks and constant tuning to make Shimano not skip but then SRAM it was just like set and forget and it was perfect all the time.

And I had an X.0 group that was absolutely unkillable. Rode it for more than a decade in all weather wtih minimal maintenance. Even the chain and cassette lasted way way longer than they I ever thought they should. I wasn't even good about cleaning the bike.

But my current bike has 1x Eagle and that chain and cassette seem like they are having trouble after 2 years. No idea what mileage it is, but it's starting to skip on those tiny little cogs that you ride in way too often since the bike has a 30t ring. The derailleur and shifter are fine though at least. And that current bike I'm much better about cleaning. I am fairly happy with my SRAM brakes after ditching the organic pads. They are quiet and powerful, good feel, etc..

My recalled cranks were totally fine all the years I was on them and then were problematic after inspection. I think these Shimano cranks are very very sensitive to the chainring installation being space flight grade in the factory. They need to be perfectly clean and you need a damn fine torque wrench setup to get them perfectly torqued evenly across the bolts, and then they will be fine. The LBS that inspected them was not capable of putting them back together with that level of precision.

I actually used grip shift a lot with 9 speed and loved it. The ability to massively change gears easily was really useful to me, but I went through RD like nobodies business.

I moved back to Shimano at around the time of the shadow RD and have been using it mostly ever since. Tried SRAM again when the 1X system was introduced but had the same issue and could never get the brakes to stop sounding like a turkey.

My new experiences with the lower end SRAM stuff - Eagle - has not been good. But we will see. I like things to be robust.

Honestly, I find most bike stuff to be a pain. My new Shimano brakes need a different adapter to install the brake bleed cup; and need another adapter for road versus mountain brakes. I have a countless number of tools to remove SRAM, Shimano and Campagnolo BB cups. Dot fluid for this, mineral oil for that, multiple chain tools to measure wear on SRAM, Shimano or Campagnolo chains. It just never ends.

[oldpotatoe]

Originally Posted by fourflys

I was comparing Chorus to 105 based on the Super Record, Record, Chorus paradigm.. also, the Ultegra Di2 is the same price as mech Chorus as a comparison..(at the website I linked prior) the buyer would have to determine if the Campy premium is worth it.. but the question was something like "where is Campy?" For most riders, if you can get e-shifting for the same price of mech, most would go for e-shifitng.. you know I'm not a Campy-hater, although their thumb shifter does occasionally bother me when my arthritis flairs up.. but I also really like being able to dumb 3 or 4 gears when I crest a hill..

As far as my experience with Campy, can't say anything but good stuff about it.. BUT, I also have the same experience with all of the Shimano and SRAM stuff I've owned (datign back to 2007ish Shimano/SRAM).. maybe I don't put the miles in that other folks that have issues do, but I still haven't had any issues with any properly adjusted groupset I've had..

That often doesn't really work, does it. Top of the line something doesn't compare to top of the line other thing..think cars, motorcycles, watches, guitars, etc, etc...

'Worth' is such a big word. A $zillion, Gucci purse is 'worth' it to some but not to others. My mechanical Rolex is 'worth it' to me, won't be buying even a high end Seiko or Casio any time soon..Same for motorcycles...I'd MUCH rather have a higher end Euro bike than a Japanese one...even if more expensive and 'maybe 'less reliable.

This thread is about Shimano's really pisspoor response to broken cranks..For a company this big, with the tech they have($$), this shouldn't happen and if it DID, their response 'should' have been much better, IMHO.

I'd say the same for sram when early gen chainrings were folding(I saw/warrantied 2 even tho I sold zero sram stuff)..the FIRST time, after the sram guy gave me the 'gee, never heard of that', PAID for the customer to buy a Chorus crank..since the customer refused to use a sram anything-crank...

B ut back to shimano...really poor response to this seemingly ongoing crank gig.

[mcteague]

Originally Posted by oldpotatoe

That often doesn't really work, does it. Top of the line something doesn't compare to top of the line other thing..think cars, motorcycles, watches, guitars, etc, etc...

'Worth' is such a big word. A $zillion, Gucci purse is 'worth' it to some but not to others. My mechanical Rolex is 'worth it' to me, won't be buying even a high end Seiko or Casio any time soon..Same for motorcycles...I'd MUCH rather have a higher end Euro bike than a Japanese one...even if more expensive and 'maybe 'less reliable.

This thread is about Shimano's really pisspoor response to broken cranks..For a company this big, with the tech they have($$), this shouldn't happen and if it DID, their response 'should' have been much better, IMHO.

I'd say the same for sram when early gen chainrings were folding(I saw/warrantied 2 even tho I sold zero sram stuff)..the FIRST time, after the sram guy gave me the 'gee, never heard of that', PAID for the customer to buy a Chorus crank..since the customer refused to use a sram anything-crank...

B ut back to shimano...really poor response to this seemingly ongoing crank gig.

I had the pedal eyelet come loose on a carbon Chorus crank. Later found out it was not that uncommon. Every brand has had their issues. Pick your poison.

Tim

[benb]

I think one of the things that rubs people the wrong way a lot about this is I think plenty of us really thought of Shimano as being kind of head and shoulders above everyone else on cranks.

I know some periods there were/have been lighter options but the combination of lightness, stiffness, reliability, etc.. was pretty amazing for a long time and it stinks that reliability became an issue here.

[David in Maine]

My LBS (which is awesome— no complaints whatsoever) sent my Ultegra cranks to Shimano even though they passed the mechanic’s inspection. My chainrings are worn, so I hoped to get a new crank rather than buying new rings for one that could still fail down the road. Shimano said the cranks are fine and are sending them back. So— buy new rings or bail and buy a different crankset? Praxis?

David

[hernium]

Originally Posted by David in Maine

My LBS (which is awesome— no complaints whatsoever) sent my Ultegra cranks to Shimano even though they passed the mechanic’s inspection. My chainrings are worn, so I hoped to get a new crank rather than buying new rings for one that could still fail down the road. Shimano said the cranks are fine and are sending them back. So— buy new rings or bail and buy a different crankset? Praxis?

David

For what it is worth, I have upgraded to the new 12 speed cranksets on all my 11 speed groupset bikes. No real issues with front shifting after re-adjusting the limit screws and indexing.