OT - Dow plunges 1,175 - worst point decline in history

[hokoman]

I had to take an online course for work this year, and I thought I remembered age discrimination being much higher, it is 40+! Either they have been lowering the age, or I got old really quick.

[saab2000]

Originally Posted by hokoman

I had to take an online course for work this year, and I thought I remembered age discrimination being much higher, it is 40+! Either they have been lowering the age, or I got old really quick.

Age discrimination (among other kinds of discrimination) is very real and I'm surprised there isn't more outcry. It's so obvious in many cases but nobody wants to be the person to raise the alarm because that person then immediately becomes marked and unemployable.

[Jaybee]

Originally Posted by saab2000

Age discrimination (among other kinds of discrimination) is very real and I'm surprised there isn't more outcry. It's so obvious in many cases but nobody wants to be the person to raise the alarm because that person then immediately becomes marked and unemployable.

Add to this that unless the hiring manager/supervisor is a complete idiot, age or other discrimination is really hard to prove.

"I hired 32-YO Judy instead of 55-YO Bill because she is a better candidate with room to grow, and will provide 90% of the value of Bill's experience for 70% of the cost" is functionally the same as "Bill is too old." but only one of those is a violation of EEO laws.

[paredown]

Originally Posted by Jaybee

Add to this that unless the hiring manager/supervisor is a complete idiot, age or other discrimination is really hard to prove.

"I hired 32-YO Judy instead of 55-YO Bill because she is a better candidate with room to grow, and will provide 90% of the value of Bill's experience for 70% of the cost" is functionally the same as "Bill is too old." but only one of those is a violation of EEO laws.

Eggzactly--when they cleaned house at my wife's last corporate gig, they laid off every old (and expensive) person in the place--and not one person was able to claim age discrimination. My lovely wife spoke with an employment lawyer, and he said that the likelihood of proving it would be slim (and expensive)--so we let it go, as did the others affected.

As far as I can tell, online job searches use age as a knock-out on the first sort, but again it is impossible to prove.

One happy story--my construction partner was interviewed by a Corporate seasoned veteran for a Construction Manager/Tenant Coordinator position for World Trade when they were ramping up.

Head guy hired for on site ended up being pretty young--and instead of hiring my friend, he hired a bunch of youngsters like himself--many with no big project experience. When he (and his buds) were all fired for not getting it done, Corporate asked why my friend had not been hired. It was done pretty much instantly by the new boss--and she worked through to the successful open of the retail space--and all of her stores opened on time.

There is no substitute for experience, IMO.

[seanile]

All of this stuff is why my dad took his graduation year off his resume, he got laid off last october and was one of two..the two oldest folks at the firm. He was told he had no strong case as well. Thankfully hes got a strong netweok, so after tryijg retirement for 8 months hes working again.

[echappist]

Originally Posted by Ozz

I have an acquaintance (kids went to school together) that was living large during "dot com" boom in the tech industry...big house, pricey ZIP code, etc...bubble burst and he refused to take a job that paid less.....this went on for 10+yrs.

His ego (and probably some mental health issues) cost him his marriage, house, and his relationship with his kids. Drugs, alcohol, arrests, virtually homeless soon followed.

Luckily his ex-wife found a solid guy and the kids are all good....

It was very sad to see this happen to a guy that had everything going for him but refused to accept his situation.

I don’t know if you recall, but we had a post to a nytimes story that sounded quite a bit like what you wrote (think this was in late Oct)

[Scuzzer]

Originally Posted by Mikej

Just wondering if anybody knows people who exited the labor market in their 40's?

Meekly raises his hand in the back of the classroom.

My wife and I built careers in our 20s and then decided to have kids. We were born of modern sensibilities so there's no way a female earning 6 figures plus would ever quit her job to raise something as mundane as human beings. At 32 my wife got pregnant, had a child and she quit her job to the consternation of just about everyone we knew.

I picked up the slack and boosted my business to take up the difference in incomes. I mean c'mon what can possibly be more important than raising your own kids with their own mother. To hell with the lifestyle, a kid needs a mom there. I made a cr@pload of money before the Chinese industrialization effort completely undercut my business.

In my mid forties it became apparent that my business was going to die due to cheap Chinese imports. Instead of milking my cash flow and screwing my suppliers by declaring bankruptcy I decided the best thing to do was to liquidate.

My wife was itching to get back in the fray so I turned into Mr Mom at 44 and she pulled up the slack. The difference being I had formed my company so that our retirement funds were maximally funded through my earning years and we have no worries there barring a complete crash.

So yeah, I might be one of those guys not counted in unemployment stats, then again I'm pretty sure I wasn't counted when I ran a $4 million a year company.

[flydhest]

Originally Posted by paredown

Eggzactly--when they cleaned house at my wife's last corporate gig, they laid off every old (and expensive) person in the place--and not one person was able to claim age discrimination. My lovely wife spoke with an employment lawyer, and he said that the likelihood of proving it would be slim (and expensive)--so we let it go, as did the others affected.

As far as I can tell, online job searches use age as a knock-out on the first sort, but again it is impossible to prove.

One happy story--my construction partner was interviewed by a Corporate seasoned veteran for a Construction Manager/Tenant Coordinator position for World Trade when they were ramping up.

Head guy hired for on site ended up being pretty young--and instead of hiring my friend, he hired a bunch of youngsters like himself--many with no big project experience. When he (and his buds) were all fired for not getting it done, Corporate asked why my friend had not been hired. It was done pretty much instantly by the new boss--and she worked through to the successful open of the retail space--and all of her stores opened on time.

There is no substitute for experience, IMO.

I find these stories distressing. Do you (anyone) think there are good policy options? There is always tension between letting the market work and protecting individuals. I do wonder if having a more flexible culture of comp—ie ask the higher paid employee if they would prefer a pay cut and retain the job—kind of thing.

Just wondering about people’s views. Is the problem short sightedness of businesses not seeing the value added of older workers? Do the companies then perform worse because of it? I love the insight of this forum. Curious for views.

[oldpotatoe]

Originally Posted by saab2000

Age discrimination (among other kinds of discrimination) is very real and I'm surprised there isn't more outcry. It's so obvious in many cases but nobody wants to be the person to raise the alarm because that person then immediately becomes marked and unemployable.

I was age discrimination'-ed when applying for a flying job with American Airlines and US Customs(1992/3). Guy inside at American said they only hire potential Captains, takes 10 years to get into left seat and want you there for 10 years..so at 43..sorry Charlie(when mandatory retirement was 60)..a ;chief pilot' at a job fair in SanDiego(Brown Field) told me to my face, I was too old to apply..35 years old max..so yup, it happens.

[saab2000]

Originally Posted by oldpotatoe

I was age discrimination'-ed when applying for a flying job with American Airlines and US Customs(1992/3). Guy inside at American said they only hire potential Captains, takes 10 years to get into left seat and want you there for 10 years..so at 43..sorry Charlie(when mandatory retirement was 60)..a ;chief pilot' at a job fair in SanDiego(Brown Field) told me to my face, I was too old to apply..35 years old max..so yup, it happens.

Trust me, I know. I'm surprised they were that blunt because it is illegal. I heard something similar from a guy at US Airways. Not directly from the horse's mouth, so to speak, but pretty much that at my age and experience level I, and others like me, was "untrainable".

My applications and career fair appearances with all the other major carriers except one left me with the same impression. I wasn't in the category they were looking for - high time, middle aged, white, male.

Thankfully, I got on with another major carrier a couple years ago just before I turned 50. Ironically, it was one I had never targeted in an application or career fair/expo (where airlines rent table space in convention halls and do face-to-face meetings to select folks for interviews). My career earnings will be lower by millions, literally, than others who had better time and fit the profile the airlines are now looking for. Timing is more important of course, but it's undeniable that they're not currently looking for people with my resumé and my age/race/gender combination.

That is not to say the candidates they're hiring aren't qualified, because in my experience at a regional airline (one of the big stepping stones to a major carrier), all the minorities and women pilots I flew with were exceptionally qualified and a pleasure to fly with. Just that if we went to an interview together I wasn't the one leaving with a new job.

[oldpotatoe]

Originally Posted by saab2000

Trust me, I know. I'm surprised they were that blunt because it is illegal. I heard something similar from a guy at US Airways. Not directly from the horse's mouth, so to speak, but pretty much that at my age and experience level I, and others like me, was "untrainable".

The guy at American said they accept any and all requests for applications(still do it that way? Request for application hooked to a resume?) and after sending out about 50 said requests, I got 3 applications..BUT a guy I knew at AA said my app, altho accepted, would never be on the 'call for interview' pile.

My interview with United was with a male, white Captain and a pregnant first officer..one of the first female UA hires..in a maternity uniform..I interviewed with about a dozen Flying Tiger guys right after Flying Tiger went under..knew I wasn't gonna get the job. Some of these guys were former 747 Captains..

[fa63]

I think this extends to other industries as well. Younger candidates (not necessarily straight out of school) being hired are generally well-qualified; companies can get 90% of the talent for 50-60% of the price, and there are few instances where that extra 10% talent would be needed (though perhaps the airline industry is not a good example for that). Which raises the question like flydhest raised: should older employees be offered the job at the lower price point, or if they are higher-paid already, should they be asked to take a pay/hour cut to keep their job? I can see myself going for the latter; for example, work 3 days/24 hours a week for 60% of the pay. That way I still have a job, and the company does not lose the knowledge I have. Then again I realize many may not be able to afford taking a 40% pay cut.

That also opens up another can of worms; how old is too old? At what age do you ask people to go part-time/take a pay cut?

Originally Posted by saab2000

That is not to say the candidates they're hiring aren't qualified, because in my experience at a regional airline (one of the big stepping stones to a major carrier), all the minorities and women pilots I flew with were exceptionally qualified and a pleasure to fly with. Just that if we went to an interview together I wasn't the one leaving with a new job.

[saab2000]

Originally Posted by fa63

I think this extends to other industries as well. Younger candidates (not necessarily straight out of school) being hired are generally well-qualified; companies can get 90% of the talent for 50-60% of the price, and there are few instances where that extra 10% talent would be needed (though perhaps the airline industry is not a good example for that). Which raises the question like flydhest raised: should older employees be offered the job at the lower price point, or if they are higher-paid already, should they be asked to take a pay/hour cut to keep their job? I can see myself going for the latter; for example, work 3 days/24 hours a week for 60% of the pay. That way I still have a job, and the company does not lose the knowledge I have. Then again I realize many may not be able to afford taking a 40% pay cut.

That also opens up another can of worms; how old is too old? At what age do you ask people to go part-time/take a pay cut?

The financial component doesn't apply in my industry because pay scales are set in union negotiations. All pilots are paid the same when they are hired and raises occur on a timetable basis according to the CBAs of various companies. All significant airlines in the US are unionized for pilots. I won't comment on the good or bad nature of that except to say that's how it works in the airlines.

So me interviewing at 49 and another in the same room who is 29 will get paid the same amount of hourly rate and the way it gets differentiated is how much we work above the minimum hourly guarantee in the contract. I tend to work a lot above this guarantee but others might be happy to just do the minimum. This is their choice. But we don't individually get to decide our pay rates when we get the job. That is collectively bargained in the airlines.

As to what is too old, in the airlines retirement is mandated at 65. This used to be 60 until about 10 or 12 years ago. It is an FAA regulation for airlines, but does not apply to corporate or private flying. I work in the airlines and while I don't relish getting older, I don't mind the mandatory retirement age. This is a young person's game IMHO for a number of reasons. I look forward to getting out of the circus that is airline flying but I am not in a financial position to do so quite yet in my early 50s. I know for a fact that I have zero desire to continue flying an airplane after the day I retire. I am at my final airline and when I set the parking brake on my final flight I will never operate an airplane again.

[oldpotatoe]

Originally Posted by saab2000

I know for a fact that I have zero desire to continue flying an airplane after the day I retire. I am at my final airline and when I set the parking brake on my final flight I will never operate an airplane again.

This has always been interesting to me..and that same sentiment I have heard from a lot of airline guys I know. When I left USN Aviation, I longed to fly..a lot, still do but it's a 'rich man's sport' for sure. Not interested in going out and doing approaches or some such silliness but I wouldn't mind making noise outta AvGas in a J3 or Citabria but..see 'rich man's sport' above.

[Lewis Moon]

Originally Posted by oldpotatoe

This has always been interesting to me..and that same sentiment I have heard from a lot of airline guys I know. When I left USN Aviation, I longed to fly..a lot, still do but it's a 'rich man's sport' for sure. Not interested in going out and doing approaches or some such silliness but I wouldn't mind making noise outta AvGas in a J3 or Citabria but..see 'rich man's sport' above.

A good friend of mine once said "never make something you love your vocation, because then it's a job".

I'll admit to making that mistake. I'm a field biologist. When I retire I won't miss schlepping sampling equipment halfway across the state, or writing reports, but the earth is out there in all it's glory to enjoy. I'll be doing that.