Modern Hardtails

[weaponsgrade]

I think climbing on a 180mm hardtail would suck - not to mention the huge change in geometry when going through the travel. I swap between a 100mm hardtail and a 160/145mm FS 29er. The FS 29er (Ripmo) is supposed to cut more towards climbing efficiency than others in that category. But, there's still a lot of wheel flop compared to the hardtail. It takes noticeably more effort to keep the bike tracking straight going uphill.

[fourflys]

lots of great info!

I would buy an MTB with the terrain of central Oregon in mind (Willamette Valley/Salem area).. I'm not that versed on what is there as we are planning in settling there in two years when my youngest graduates.. anyone know the area and want to comment? BTW- I don't see me doing much jumping or large drops.. just not my comfort zone or style..

if your watch the Dustin Klein (everything's been done) videos, that's kind of what I think I might enjoy and hope is what's in the area we settle in..

*also, I agree with the comments that I assume climbing on a 180mm fork hardtail would suck..

[prototoast]

Originally Posted by fourflys

lots of great info!

I would buy an MTB with the terrain of central Oregon in mind (Willamette Valley/Salem area).. I'm not that versed on what is there as we are planning in settling there in two years when my youngest graduates.. anyone know the area and want to comment? BTW- I don't see me doing much jumping or large drops.. just not my comfort zone or style..

if your watch the Dustin Klein (everything's been done) videos, that's kind of what I think I might enjoy and hope is what's in the area we settle in..

I didn't MTB when I lived in Oregon, but something like the Kona Honzo was quite popular at the time. Obviously I wouldn't recommend a Kona right now, but something with similar geometry is probably a safe bet.

[ah87]

Originally Posted by fourflys

if your watch the Dustin Klein (everything's been done) videos, that's kind of what I think I might enjoy and hope is what's in the area we settle in..

If this video is representative of the trails he rides on his channel then I'd say you don't need much travel. That trail is very smooth and flowy with only a few scattered roots to get in the way. You could choose anything from an XC race bike to a moderately aggressive trail hardtail with 130-140mm of travel and 64 degree HTA (like the Japhy) and be perfectly well equipped.

As others have said, it doesn't really make sense to go above 140mm on a hardtail because the "stapler" effect means your geometry changes drastically as you move through the fork travel. If you need more than 140mm you would be much better served by a full sus bike anyway. But, I digress…

[EB]

Given the terrain in question, and if you're willing to go a bit fancy, the new Neuhaus HBSL looks pretty sweet - $3000 for a made-to-order Ti frame with Cerakote, and some sweet complete builds as well:

https://www.neuhausmetalworks.com/store/p/hbsl

I've got nothing but praise for Nick's sizing approach.

[nmrt]

If I were buying a hardtail, the following attributes are a MUST:

1. Takes 29 X 2.6 in tires. Or, if purchasing a 27.5+, then takes 2.8-3.0 in tires. I have ridden both 29er and 27.5+ versions. To me, I would not ride anything less wide in a hardtail.
2. Short chainstays -- 420 mm -- this necessitates the use of a yoke if the material is steel or Ti.
3. Built around 120 mm. If it needs more than 120 mm, I am buying a FS.

[rothwem]

For what its worth, XC full suspensions are so good these days that there's not really a reason to get a hardtail other than the fact that they're nifty (which is a totally okay reason). I went from a Specialized Chisel, which is an excellent hardtail, to an Epic Evo and swapped all the parts over. Its better everywhere than the Chisel was--up/down/rolling terrain/etc etc.

As far as long travel is concerned, I don't think I'd go this direction--I think that hardtails are best with as little front travel as possible--the geometry changes pretty significantly (in the complete wrong direction) with sag on a 100mm bike, I can't imagine how much a 180mm bike would suck.

[rothwem]

Originally Posted by nmrt

If I were buying a hardtail, the following attributes are a MUST:

1. Takes 29 X 2.6 in tires. Or, if purchasing a 27.5+, then takes 2.8-3.0 in tires. I have ridden both 29er and 27.5+ versions. To me, I would not ride anything less wide in a hardtail.
2. Short chainstays -- 420 mm -- this necessitates the use of a yoke if the material is steel or Ti.

Bro this is *so* 2017. Don't you know that long stays and 2.4"s are back in style again?

(only half joking, really only short people like short stays and super fat tires are sloooooow)

[boomforeal]

Originally Posted by fourflys

it got me wondering if there was a HT angle that would be too slack for what most hardtail folks, who aren't doing a bunch of dirt jumping, might want.. also, is 180mm of travel too much for a hardtail?

depends on where and what you're riding of course, but if you have the terrain for it (think Vancouver north shore, Whistler) the answer is no (unless it's for dirt jumping, where you don't want a slack HTA) and no. I had a Honzo ESD with a 63* hta and a 170mm fork for a bit last year -- it was rad.

[m_sasso]

Originally Posted by rothwem

For what its worth, XC full suspensions are so good these days that there's not really a reason to get a hardtail other than the fact that they're nifty (which is a totally okay reason). I went from a Specialized Chisel, which is an excellent hardtail, to an Epic Evo and swapped all the parts over. Its better everywhere than the Chisel was--up/down/rolling terrain/etc etc.

As far as long travel is concerned, I don't think I'd go this direction--I think that hardtails are best with as little front travel as possible--the geometry changes pretty significantly (in the complete wrong direction) with sag on a 100mm bike, I can't imagine how much a 180mm bike would suck.

Nifty? OK! No, the simplicity, reliability and reduced maintain costs of a hard tail far exceeds the complexity and maintenance costs associated with a fully suspended bicycle.

[EB]

Originally Posted by rothwem

For what its worth, XC full suspensions are so good these days that there's not really a reason to get a hardtail other than the fact that they're nifty (which is a totally okay reason). I went from a Specialized Chisel, which is an excellent hardtail, to an Epic Evo and swapped all the parts over. Its better everywhere than the Chisel was--up/down/rolling terrain/etc etc.

I mostly agree with you on this, but I still have a hardtail because they're fun.

But there is another tradeoff - maintenance. Hardtails lack pivot bearings and rear shocks and this makes them much less work and/or maintenance cost on an annual basis. Especially if you live in a place with harsh winters.

[boomforeal]

Originally Posted by EB

I mostly agree with you on this, but I still have a hardtail because they're fun.

But there is another tradeoff - maintenance. Hardtails lack pivot bearings and rear shocks and this makes them much less work and/or maintenance cost on an annual basis. Especially if you live in a place with harsh winters.

full suspensions bikes are more fun to ride than hardtails. anyone who says otherwise doesn't know what they're talking about or is lying (maybe even to themselves). yes they require more maintenance, but replacing bushings and bearings and servicing shocks is maybe 2-3 hours of work a year? peanuts

edit: imo, beyond being cheaper towards the bottom end, the only thing hardtails have over full suspensions bikes is aesthetics, and maybe some conceptual stuff

[John H.]

Since Specialized stopped offering their better hardtail, I steer folks to the Cervelo Z-HT.
Right now you can get the cheap one for $3000 or a nicer one for $5700. Hard to beat that-

[PacNW2Ford]

Originally Posted by fourflys

lots of great info!

I would buy an MTB with the terrain of central Oregon in mind (Willamette Valley/Salem area).. I'm not that versed on what is there as we are planning in settling there in two years when my youngest graduates.. anyone know the area and want to comment? BTW- I don't see me doing much jumping or large drops.. just not my comfort zone or style..

if your watch the Dustin Klein (everything's been done) videos, that's kind of what I think I might enjoy and hope is what's in the area we settle in..

*also, I agree with the comments that I assume climbing on a 180mm fork hardtail would suck..

Note: “Central Oregon” and “Willamette Valley/Salem” are not the same place. Central Oregon is generally high desert and drier. The Willamette Valley is the wetter side of the Cascades.

[rothwem]

Originally Posted by EB

I mostly agree with you on this, but I still have a hardtail because they're fun.

But there is another tradeoff - maintenance. Hardtails lack pivot bearings and rear shocks and this makes them much less work and/or maintenance cost on an annual basis. Especially if you live in a place with harsh winters.

Originally Posted by m_sasso

Nifty? OK! No, the simplicity, reliability and reduced maintain costs of a hard tail far exceeds the complexity and maintenance costs associated with a fully suspended bicycle.

I don't want to Jinx myself, but my Epic Evo hasn't had any pivot issues and I've been riding it hard 2-3x a week for a year now--every ride has several creek crossings and our trails don't close for rain. The shock has been maintenance free also--I plan on pulling it off and having it rebuilt with my fork, but neither of them have needed it yet.