OT: 3PMSF all season tires vs real snows

[jds108]

Any thoughts on getting studded tires? If your challenge is icy roads, I'd say they're another whole level up from a dedicated winter tire.

I'm in Bozeman. Once in a while we get a dump, but every winter the challenging conditions are when it's icy and particularly slick. I recently resigned myself to having two sets of wheels/tires, so going all the way to studs is the best choice for my use case.

[.RJ]

Originally Posted by tellyho

We really don't get snow anymore in the Boston area, but I'm reluctant to ditch the snow tires. I will say that if I had a Subaru or AWD, I'd see no reason for snow tires (and when I lived in VT, the Sube wore all seasons and did just fine).

AWD doesnt help you stop or turn

[Mr. Pink]

Originally Posted by .RJ

AWD doesnt help you stop or turn

Yeah, the big benefit of snow tires is braking. The few tests I've seen on YouTube for snows are basically just breaking distance comparisons. You're not really driving that fast in those conditions, anyway. I hope.
First snow of the season I dread the drivers running around in massive, heavy SUVs with nearly dead tires. They slept through basic physics class if they think they're not just sliding through that stop sign or red light.

[tellyho]

Originally Posted by .RJ

AWD doesnt help you stop or turn

Fair; I just never needed snows with AWD. My other car was a tercel - snows were essential on that thing.

[rice rocket]

Originally Posted by jds108

Any thoughts on getting studded tires? If your challenge is icy roads, I'd say they're another whole level up from a dedicated winter tire.

I'm in Bozeman. Once in a while we get a dump, but every winter the challenging conditions are when it's icy and particularly slick. I recently resigned myself to having two sets of wheels/tires, so going all the way to studs is the best choice for my use case.

Studded will surely get you the shortest stopping distance if you have the mental fortitude to listen to them all season.

I don't think that's me.

[C40_guy]

Originally Posted by rice rocket

Studded will surely get you the shortest stopping distance if you have the mental fortitude to listen to them all season.

On ice sure. On wet roads, not so much. I ran studs on a car many years ago; would not do that again unless I encountered a *lot* of ice on a regular basis.

[Tandem Rider]

Originally Posted by rice rocket

Studded will surely get you the shortest stopping distance if you have the mental fortitude to listen to them all season.

I don't think that's me.

The best choice in winter tires is dependant on your vehicle and local conditions. Most years we get frequent snows and the city does an abysmal job of removal. This means nearly every major street has a layer of rough, rutted, slick, ice until it melts. On the early mornings that we go through an inversion, there's a layer of thick frost on the pavement that stays until there's enough traffic to get rid of it. My employer put winter tires without studs on my 2wd service truck a year ago, I'll get them worn out this winter and go back to studs for our conditions next winter.

[Mr. Pink]

I should mention that the Cross Climate 2s are the best tire I've ever had in highway/downpour conditions. Hard to feel like you're hydroplaning. That's 180 from how I felt with the Blizzaks I owned once, which were great snow tires, but sketchy in wet conditions.

[froze]

Actually you are giving up a lot in snowy icy weather going with all season tires vs tires like the Blizzak.

Tires like the Blizzak are made of very soft rubber, which is why you're not supposed to use them before November and after February because the warmer the seasons become the faster those tires will wear out. That softer tire compound when it's freezing outside remains more pliable than an all-season tire, the all-season tire will get hard which makes them more slippery on ice regardless of the tread design. So yes, you do give up a lot by not going with Blizzak. And they're not going to make an all-season tire with soft rubber to perform in freezing weather because people would be upset if their tires only lasted 20,000 miles.

Having said that, I live in NE Indiana, we get snow here, but we haven't had a lot of snow for the last 9 years, so I don't use special winter tires. Plus, I have a 4x4 so if it did snow a lot and I had to go somewhere I would just use it. If I lived someplace where there was a lot more snow and ice, I would get special winter tires, even for the 4x4.

If you feel you don't need winter tires, and are confident enough in your intelligence not to drive faster than conditions mandate, and not go fast because you have AWD or a 4X4 because you think those are invincible to such conditions, and you don't get a lot of snow and ice, then just stay with the all-season tires.

There is one all-season tire, that manages better in the snow than any other all-season tire, and that is the Michelin CrossClimate 2, so while it may not perform as well as a Blizzak for example, it will do better than other all-season tires, but it is also louder than other all-season tires. Welp, you can't have it all.

[carpediemracing]

Originally Posted by .RJ

AWD doesnt help you stop or turn

+1 on turning and braking.

For me I have all 2WD vehicles, and with snows, I know if I can get going then I have way more traction for stopping and turning. Our driveway is a good test, if we can get down it okay then we're probably good to go. Plus we have a 200m steep hill to leave our little neighborhood (400-600w for me to get up the thing on the bike).

I had a great inadvertent experiment between snows and all seasons. My in-laws drove down to our house - we were flying out the next day. It was snowing like mad - apparently much of the highway was essentially unplowed, and our road had maybe 6-8 inches of snow on it. We both had same make SUVs at the time. I had snows; they had all seasons. They had a slightly smaller vehicle, and since I was bringing my bike, I went to swap vehicles. We have a third, separate bay that we rent, maybe quarter mile from the house.

We also have a very steep driveway. For curiosity sake I went out with a level and a ruler. The steepest part of the driveway has a 7 inch rise across 32 inch run - it's about 21%. This is basically at the top of the driveway.

I got in the in-law's SUV. I put it in drive, started down the driveway... and slid down the driveway and into the curb across the street. I got the car turned to the right, and drove to our 3rd bay. The rear tires would not grab - the right rear tire was rolling along against the curb. The front tires I had a bit more in the lane, but essentially the SUV was crab walking down the road. (I have no idea how they did a 7 hour drive - turned into 12 due to snow - on those tires)

I switched vehicles, putting the in-law's SUV in the bay and taking out my SUV. I tested the brakes, gunned it a bit, and it seemed okay. Drove it back to the driveway, no problems, no crab walking.

I turned into our driveway and got to the top, turned it around to make it easier to load the bike.

That's when I realized that I forgot to put it into 4WD. I'd driven all that stuff in RWD.

I since replaced the SUV with another one. For mechanical efficiency, maintenance simplicity/cost, I bought a RWD only SUV. Fitted the factory wheels with snows, a second wheel set with all seasons. It's been great.

I thought about getting a 4 season tire but decided against it after hearing feedback from customers when I worked in an auto service center.

[ridethecliche]

I need to double check the model, but I bought a set of the 3peak tires last year. I live in philly but drive to vermont frequently to snowboard in the winter.

They worked fantastic in mixed conditions including some of the deeper stuff on my rav4. I have the older version so I have an e-diff that can be locked at <25mph.

I will plan to replace them on the earlier side since I wouldn't trust them over normal all seasons once they're close to their replace mark. If normal replacement is 2/32, I'd replace these in 3 or 4/32. If they're at that mark at the end of winter, I'd just replace prior to the next winter.

I love them.

[froze]

You should replace tires when they get to 4/32nds, going past that will adversely affect their rain abilities and of course snow.

[jadmt]

Originally Posted by jds108

Any thoughts on getting studded tires? If your challenge is icy roads, I'd say they're another whole level up from a dedicated winter tire.

I'm in Bozeman. Once in a while we get a dump, but every winter the challenging conditions are when it's icy and particularly slick. I recently resigned myself to having two sets of wheels/tires, so going all the way to studs is the best choice for my use case.

my daughter and son in-law live in bozo, well three forks as they could not afford to buy in bozo. they both run blizzaks in the winter. Subaru awd and civic.

[Mikej]

AWD increase your traction in a straight line. So, in a way it helps turn by reducing swerve.

[froze]

Originally Posted by jadmt

my daughter and son in-law live in bozo, well three forks as they could not afford to buy in bozo. they both run blizzaks in the winter. Subaru awd and civic.

I don't like Subaru cars, BUT, I've seen several tests done on YouTube and the Foresters have the best traction on ice and snow of any AWD on the market by far! So if I lived in areas like Bozo, I would own a Sub Forester. Combine that car with Blizzak tires when snow first starts to fall, and a person could almost go anywhere around areas like that in the snow or on the ice.

Be forewarned though on ice, no matter what kind of tires you have, what kind of car you have, whether it's AWD or 4WD, ice is ice, sure you have good starting traction with the Suby, but that doesn't mean you can go bombing down an ice covered road and think nothing of it! No, you have to drive sanely, realizing you're not going to stop well.

The other problem with Subs is there AWD system has the tightest tolerances of any AWD on the market, and what that means for example is this, if you have 50% wear on all your tires, and you destroy a tire, YOU HAVE TO BUY 4 NEW TIRES! Subarus can't take more than 2/32nds of rubber difference between all the tires. That is a pain with Subs, but for an area with lots of snow and ice, it's a pain worth taking. The only way you can get around not pay for 4 new tires is IF, and that's a HUGE IF, a tire shop has a tire shaver, they can shave enough rubber off the new tire to match the others. Tire shavers use to be fairly common over 40 years ago at larger tire shops, but now they are very difficult to find. The other thing about that tolerance problem is you should be rotating your tires about twice as often as you would normally with any other car to reduce the chances of having a greater than 2/32nds difference.

It's that tire situation is why I don't like Subys, but where I live I don't get enough snow and ice to warrant buying such a car.