Question About Position on the Bike

[fa63]

Let's see, we have:

- Cleat position
- Crank length
- Saddle fore/aft/tilt
- Saddle height
- Handlebar reach/stack

On top of that there are physiological issues like mobility/flexibility, foot arch, posture imbalances, leg length discrepancies, etc. all of which could be contributing to the OP's ailments.

I know good fitters are rare, but they do exist and all the considerations above could be implemented on an adjustable fit bike under the watch of someone who knows what to look for in a matter of couple hours. I would even consider flying out to see a reputable fitter if there isn't one locally available. Otherwise, it is just overwhelming to try to figure out all the variables on your own, and life is too short to ride a bike in pain

[Alistair]

Originally Posted by cah485

Thanks for the suggestion, I'll try shifting the cleat. Hmm...I have a 165 mm crank laying around, I could swap that. Any reason why crank length might help? Or just something pretty easy to try? Thanks!

It wouldn't necessarily help with knee tracking (I really don't know).

But, you mentioned feeling like your pedal stroke has your foot out in front of you, and a shorter crank should help with that some. As would moving the saddle forward, but that's a more complex adjustment (hard to do in isolation from other factors).

Moving the cleat rearward technically moves your foot forward more, but it might feel more underneath you since you'll be less reliant on calf/ankle/foot stability. But maybe not - this is a total guess.

If you have the 165 crank, I'd be tempted to start there.

But, I'm just some guy on the internet. Just tossing out relatively easy/safe things to try that might help.

[bshell]

Lots more information about you since the original post and some good advice as well since I started drafting a response but I'm adding it anyway.

***
LOTS of variables -so while fairly involved, you are your best test laboratory. I took bad running advice from a coach and it set me up for years of pain.

You know your body and sound like a proficient tinkerer. Patient trial and error will be your friend. If it hurts, STOP.

Half the battle is not being overly influenced by opinions online or from 'pro' fitters while at the same time considering their info....

Now here's MY opinion ahahaha.

Things to consider alone/together:
Mobility.
Cleat placement going rearward.
Float needs.
Saddle height.
A saddle that allows anterior pelvic tilt.
Saddle rearward on rails.

The barefoot/minimal thing (and book) changed my way of thinking about sports entirely. Funnily enough, there are discussions and tutorials describing form that in no way correlate to what the same people execute when actually running.

In the end, you're mostly on your own but that's not a bad thing.

Best of luck. It's time consuming.

DO NOT RIDE OR RUN THROUGH THE PAIN.

[benb]

Yah sorry if I was unclear, you should definitely do a bike fit just to make sure you're in the ballpark if you have never done one.

Just go in with expectations it's not going to be easy and they might not get it right on the first try.

One of the biggies with me is a lot of fits they look at me on the right side and are biased towards that and never even suspected I had anything asymmetric going on. So they'll set me up so my right side looks great, but because that's the longer leg as I ride the longer leg pushes me to the left and upsets my balance and causes me to put excessive weight on my left hand. (A lot of this takes a while to be felt as an issue.. > 1 hour, and very few fits have you ride the position for that long to verify things.). These fits would even feel fantastic when I left and the problems wouldn't start to really become bad till 40-50 miles into a ride.

As the years have gone on I have become more and more aware of what is going on but even going in and asking for help with that specific thing it is not easy.

FWIW more rearward cleat placement + a foreward offset for my left foot has always helped me, and realistically I should have tried Speedplays and/or Shimano shoes on the road to be able to move them further back a long long time ago. SPD-SL + typical 3-bolt road shoes have always been tricky. On mountain bikes typical shoe/cleat setups just straight up have enough adjustment and it's much easier.

[cah485]

Originally Posted by Alistair

But, you mentioned feeling like your pedal stroke has your foot out in front of you, and a shorter crank should help with that some. As would moving the saddle forward, but that's a more complex adjustment (hard to do in isolation from other factors).

I guess this is one thing that I was wondering about specifically. It seems like moving the saddle forward (and deviating from the plumb line dropping through the center of the spindle) is something to try, given the success I have had bringing my feet back under me while I'm running. However, it runs counter to everything that I've read generally about position on the bike, but is this something that people do? I think I may have read a long time ago that triathletes maybe ride further forward to shift the muscular load while cycling to preserve their legs for the running segment? Any thoughts on shifting the saddle a good bit forward?

[cah485]

Originally Posted by bshell

The barefoot/minimal thing (and book) changed my way of thinking about sports entirely.

Very curious how this changed your entire way of thinking about sports?

[OtayBW]

You are confident that your saddle height (and tilt), fore-aft position, and weight distribution is good for you in terms of basic fit?

[John H.]

I was thinking the same. Try sliding the cleats back and moving to shorter cranks.
Shorter cranks opens up hip angle. This could make it easer for you to pedal without the knee motion that you describe.
Moving the cleats back will help your feet to be more stable, also reduces the work that lower leg muscles do to stabilized the foot.

Originally Posted by cah485

Thanks for the suggestion, I'll try shifting the cleat. Hmm...I have a 165 mm crank laying around, I could swap that. Any reason why crank length might help? Or just something pretty easy to try? Thanks!

[benb]

Some of knees moving also has to do with stance width and/or the saddle being too low causing the knee to move out at the top and in at the bottom.

Those are all things fitters are pretty good at fixing.

[bshell]

Originally Posted by cah485

Very curious how this changed your entire way of thinking about sports?

Sorry, that was dramatic of me and I participate in very few sports.

Better put this way, it made me think about all of the opinions, marketing, and crutches that have crept into life in general -not just sports.

I ask myself if 'this is natural' or if 'this is smart' a lot more.

It's usually about moving units.

[benb]

Originally Posted by bshell

Sorry, that was dramatic of me and I participate in very few sports.

Better put this way, it made me think about all of the opinions, marketing, and crutches that have crept into life in general -not just sports.

I ask myself if 'this is natural' or if 'this is smart' a lot more.

It's usually about moving units.

That book has certainly effected my thinking about a lot of this stuff.

A lot of the equipment from shoes to orthotics to even some of our bike stuff is just made up and then they throw a veneer of psuedo-science marketing on top.

Orthotics are really shaky for something that started out mostly inside a medical community.

And yet for n=1 I do better with them even when I try really hard to stop.

Some of it is the shoes suck too! The easiest way for me avoid orthotics is to avoid shoes too. The current ultra-soft-foam craze seems to be the worst trend of all for me at least. They magnify the issues orthotics try to correct. Plenty of them can negate my orthotics completely. There were a bunch of different running shoes & athletic shoes I was wearing successfully at version X with or without an orthotic and then when X+1 came out they hit a new level of softness and they stopped working/caused injury.

[Xrslug]

Originally Posted by cah485

I guess this is one thing that I was wondering about specifically. It seems like moving the saddle forward (and deviating from the plumb line dropping through the center of the spindle) is something to try, given the success I have had bringing my feet back under me while I'm running. However, it runs counter to everything that I've read generally about position on the bike, but is this something that people do? I think I may have read a long time ago that triathletes maybe ride further forward to shift the muscular load while cycling to preserve their legs for the running segment? Any thoughts on shifting the saddle a good bit forward?

The trend, at least in pro racing (which trickles down), for many years now has been toward shifting the saddle forward. Steeper seat tube angles, zero offset seatposts, shorter-nosed saddles so that they can be shifted forward and not run afoul of the UCI rules. As far as the knee-over-spindle, every fitter I’ve listened to recently when asked about this (usually in the context of how to square it with a forward saddle position) either rejects it outright or at best says that it can be helpful to get in the ballpark of a position that works but is not a hard rule. The Performance Process podcast has had episodes on saddles and crank length, both of which are germane to your journey. I believe the saddle episode is public but the crank length episode requires a subscription:

https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcas...=1000650211566

[Alistair]

Originally Posted by benb

Some of knees moving also has to do with stance width and/or the saddle being too low causing the knee to move out at the top and in at the bottom.

Those are all things fitters are pretty good at fixing.

Except it sounded asymmetric (one knee shows the inward/outward movement pattern, one does not)?

[Alistair]

Originally Posted by cah485

However, {moving the saddle forward} runs counter to everything that I've read generally about position on the bike, but is this something that people do?

There's a few things to consider...
- the "knee over spindle" advice is not scientific, and only a convenient starting point

- differing saddle setback changes hip angles at extremes - some people simply can't ride with closed hips (the physical ball/socket joint won't allow it)

- differing saddle setback ****s the load to different muscles (more quads foward vs more glutes/hams rearward).

- UCI has saddle setback rules in place to prevent super-aero positions on the bike (superman-esque).

- Triathlets run saddles super forward relative to roadies for several reasons, one is aero, one is chasnging muscle load (so they can transition into the run easier). But, their bikes also have different BB placement and different steering geometry - their entire position is rotated forward around the BB with steering geo to accommodate that - adopting that position on a road bike would be twitchy at best

- Yes, pros are increasingly running their saddles as far forward as possible. Look at some of the USA-based gravel racers (they aren't stuck with the UCI setback rule).

[Peter P.]

Well, if you want to perform self-experimentation, you're going to have to be patient and change only one variable at a time. I would say give your changes in position 2 weeks/200 miles before making the next change.

Cycling orthotics are and should be different than running orthotics because in running the foot is "heel posted" while in cycling it is "forefoot posted". I trust your cycling orthotics were made for the sport?

If you want to experiment with getting your feet underneath you as you say, The first thing you could do would be to slide your saddle forward in 5mm increments. You will have to raise your saddle slightly to accommodate the fore/aft change.

You could try shorter cranks but that can be an expensive experiment. Perhaps you have a second bike with shorter cranks you can ride for a while, or a friend whose bike you can borrow or will let you borrow their crankset. Some problems are due to leg length discrepancies and if you haven't already been diagnosed with an LLD you can self-test and even determine whether it's in the upper or lower leg, which will determine how you treat it.

Two good books to have on bike fit are Dr. Andy Pruitt's book Complete Medical Guide for Cyclists, and the free, Bike Fit by Dr. Arnie Baker.