Vuelta a España discussion (spoilers)

[NHAero]

Originally Posted by phishrabbi

I agree with this. But you omit the fact that he was far and away the third strongest in the race. Part of racing is not attacking a teammate wearing the leader's jersey. It's like swinging on a 3-0 pitch when up by 10 runs.



Historically, he's been the ideal mountain domestique- frequently the one to make the ultimate selection, dropping plenty of gc hopefuls, and also able to tow a leader back when necessary.

Until last year he had never used the tactics of someone looking to win a grand tour. Now he will.

My money, however, is on Adam Yates.

If I'm not mistaken, Kuss rode all three Grand Tours last year, so he had the TDF and the Giro in his legs. He provided key support for Roglic and for Vingegaard. Would he have been an even stronger contender in the Vuelta if he hadn't ridden the TDF?

[trener1]

Originally Posted by Dude

he's never been able to hang with the top-tier grand tour riders.

The top-tier GT riders are not at this race, with all due respect to Roglic, Yates etc...
the top 2 guys are on another level and while Sepp is not at the level is very much the equal to Yates, Roglic etc... when he is a good day and has in fact bettered them on many a day.
Not saying that he will win, but also not saying that he has no chance.

[jdp211]

Originally Posted by Dude

Historically, he's never been able to hang with the top-tier grand tour riders.

This isn't exactly true, considering his job hasn't been to hang with the top-tier grand tour riders, its been to deliver his team leader to the point where they attack/can follow the attack. Support riders' "finish lines" are generally much earlier in the stage, unless they're trying to win said stage.

[Metz]

Originally Posted by novacyclist

If you watched the Netflix show, it shows that WvA also didn't want to help Jonas at the Tour that year (forgot which year).

Huh? There have been countless stages that Wout has helped Jonas the last three years at le Tour. A quick google search netted the below Rouleur article:

"But last year’s Tour de France was not won by Vingegaard alone. Wout van Aert was one crucial part to the puzzle, acting as super domestique and often sacrificing his own chances to help his team. Take the famed Hautacam stage of last year’s Tour as an example. Van Aert got himself in the early break of the day and had a chance of taking victory while the general classification battle played out behind him, but he wasn’t thinking of his own success. Instead, he waited for Vingegaard and did a monstrous pull on the front to drop Pogačar and lead Vingegaard to the stage victory. The Danish rider even said it himself after the stage: “I have to thank all my teammates, they’re incredible. You see Wout van Aert dropping Tadej Pogačar in the end, Thanks so much to my teammates, I could never have done this without them.”

[novacyclist]

Originally Posted by Metz

Huh? There have been countless stages that Wout has helped Jonas the last three years at le Tour. A quick google search netted the below Rouleur article:

"But last year’s Tour de France was not won by Vingegaard alone. Wout van Aert was one crucial part to the puzzle, acting as super domestique and often sacrificing his own chances to help his team. Take the famed Hautacam stage of last year’s Tour as an example. Van Aert got himself in the early break of the day and had a chance of taking victory while the general classification battle played out behind him, but he wasn’t thinking of his own success. Instead, he waited for Vingegaard and did a monstrous pull on the front to drop Pogačar and lead Vingegaard to the stage victory. The Danish rider even said it himself after the stage: “I have to thank all my teammates, they’re incredible. You see Wout van Aert dropping Tadej Pogačar in the end, Thanks so much to my teammates, I could never have done this without them.”

I think we're talking about 2 separate, but related things. Please watch the Netflix series, you will see that there is an episode where it shows WvA not entirely enjoying being forced to give us his own ambitions in favor of Jonas'.

What you're talking about is if he actually helped. That is not up for debate. Of course he did.

[weisan]

Sometimes I wonder whether we are treating pro riders as machines that follow and obey orders, to perform flawlessly under any conditions or pressure... or rather as human beings with emotions, ego, self interests, aspirations, fears, joy, vulnerable, has limitations... in other words kinda like us except they can ride much faster, longer and further.

[Metz]

Originally Posted by novacyclist

I think we're talking about 2 separate, but related things. Please watch the Netflix series, you will see that there is an episode where it shows WvA not entirely enjoying being forced to give us his own ambitions in favor of Jonas'.

What you're talking about is if he actually helped. That is not up for debate. Of course he did.

I’ve watched every tour stage for years and both Netflix series. What rider with Wout’s talent and ability to win in so many ways has also worked for others in grand tours as much as he has? To me it’s insane to question his dedication - I’m sure he doesn’t always love giving up opportunities to win and, of course, may show that but it just seems like nitpicking to question him. Take a look at the guys in his league in the current generation and tell me which rider has put in half the work he has for team mates. Some do more team work than others but I can’t think of anyone who’s done more.

[prototoast]

Originally Posted by Metz

I’ve watched every tour stage for years and both Netflix series. What rider with Wout’s talent and ability to win in so many ways has also worked for others in grand tours as much as he has? To me it’s insane to question his dedication - I’m sure he doesn’t always love giving up opportunities to win and, of course, may show that but it just seems like nitpicking to question him. Take a look at the guys in his league in the current generation and tell me which rider has put in half the work he has for team mates. Some do more team work than others but I can’t think of anyone who’s done more.

I agree with this, and I don't think anyone here actually disagrees.

Wout has been a phenomenal teammate who has sacrificed more personal ambition than most riders have in their whole careers. In some situations, I think it's frustrated him when he thought he could have gone for a big win, but was called into supporting teammates instead. That's totally understandable, and I think the fact that he has performed so admirably in the face of this frustration is a testament to his character.

[novacyclist]

Originally Posted by Metz

I’ve watched every tour stage for years and both Netflix series. What rider with Wout’s talent and ability to win in so many ways has also worked for others in grand tours as much as he has? To me it’s insane to question his dedication - I’m sure he doesn’t always love giving up opportunities to win and, of course, may show that but it just seems like nitpicking to question him. Take a look at the guys in his league in the current generation and tell me which rider has put in half the work he has for team mates. Some do more team work than others but I can’t think of anyone who’s done more.

Again, I think you're taking this the wrong way. No one is questioning his dedication.... I agree with you. Mine was simply a response to a comment about WvA's willingness to help Sepp. Was LeMond willing to help Hinault? Yes! Did he like it? No! Did Hinault win? Yes! Did Greg win? Yes! Again, dedication and ability is not being questioned.

Originally Posted by prototoast

I agree with this, and I don't think anyone here actually disagrees.

Wout has been a phenomenal teammate who has sacrificed more personal ambition than most riders have in their whole careers. In some situations, I think it's frustrated him when he thought he could have gone for a big win, but was called into supporting teammates instead. That's totally understandable, and I think the fact that he has performed so admirably in the face of this frustration is a testament to his character.

Yes, thank you for chiming in.

[rccardr]

Early days.

The climbing bits begin tomorrow. That’s when we’ll start to see what’s what.

[br0qn]

Originally Posted by phishrabbi

My money, however, is on Adam Yates.

over almeida?

I'm rooting for landa but if I had money on it the podium for me is

Roglic
Almeida
Landa

i don't think kuss has enough racing in his legs this season

[trener1]

Originally Posted by br0qn

over almeida?

I'm routing for landa but if I had money on it the podium for me is

Roglic
Almeida
Landa

i don't think kuss has enough racing in his legs this season

I'd pick Yates over Almeida (strictly speaking between those 2), this race has very little TT's, Almeida is the better TT'r but I'd give Yates the edge in the climbing department, and this race is all about the climbs.

[Alistair]

Originally Posted by prototoast

In some situations, I think it's frustrated him when he thought he could have gone for a big win, but was called into supporting teammates instead. That's totally understandable, and I think the fact that he has performed so admirably in the face of this frustration is a testament to his character.

I wonder how much the WvA vs MvdP comparisons play into it? MvdP has more big wins. WvA might feel some pressure (both internal and external from press/fans/team owners) to deliver similar results (and stage wins and green jerseys would do a lot to "cure" that). Maybe, just thinking aloud here.

Either way, he definitely plays domestique more than MvdP. MvdP is a lead-out man, which takes skill, but he's not usually blowing himself up on hard stages dragging GC guys around like WvA. Without WvA, Jonas probably doesn't win either Tour.

[novacyclist]

Originally Posted by Alistair

I wonder how much the WvA vs MvdP comparisons play into it? MvdP has more big wins. WvA might feel some pressure (both internal and external from press/fans/team owners) to deliver similar results (and stage wins and green jerseys would do a lot to "cure" that). Maybe, just thinking aloud here.

Either way, he definitely plays domestique more than MvdP. MvdP is a lead-out man, which takes skill, but he's not usually blowing himself up on hard stages dragging GC guys around like WvA. Without WvA, Jonas probably doesn't win either Tour.

I'll be interested to see how WvA performs on another team. Thinking how Mateo is so successful this year after move from Moviestar.

Remco to Red Bull, WvA to QS. Match made in heaven? QS back to classics team

[br0qn]

Originally Posted by trener1

I'd pick Yates over Almeida (strictly speaking between those 2), this race has very little TT's, Almeida is the better TT'r but I'd give Yates the edge in the climbing department, and this race is all about the climbs.

it's a toss up for me between the two, they both have 1 grand tour podium?
they ran seconds apart at suisse with yates taking it but almeida finished a handful of minutes over yates at the tour. picking almeida thinking (guessing) he's in better form and peaking here at the vuelta.

Originally Posted by Alistair

I wonder how much the WvA vs MvdP comparisons play into it? MvdP has more big wins.

i don't know, depends on how you weight the race/win. i'd say on the road they're pretty even, wout has 9x tdf stage wins and a green jeresey