Hambini vs Kerin (ZFC)

[Mikej]

Zfc only reapplies wet lubes, no chain cleaning happens during the test. Obviously that is where wax shines, no cleaning just plop chain back in the cooker. If the lubed chains were properly cleaned between each application it would most likely last quite a while longer.

[Talrand]

Originally Posted by martl

Seing that chain waxing focussed many a rider for the first time to invest a good amount of effort in regular, short-intervalled maintenance, i can't help but assume a classic grease-lubed chain getting the same kind of regular (and correct*) attention would last as long and run as smooth

*) Jobst Brandt, iirc, wrote lengthy articles on usenet about the way in which a well-meant regular maintenance may shorten the life-span of a bicycle chain considerably

Wax is used in other technical applications, but it is limited to special areas, where grease can not be used, as in food processing, where the environment is rich on small particles like dust or fluff from textile processing, so the stickiness of grease creates a problem, or where regular maintenance is not possible (lifelong lubrication), this is for chains running under low load and other restrictions, like max temperature lower than 60°C.
The vast majority of chains running in all kind of machines simply run greased, and there are good reasons for that.

I get the wish for a clean and silent drivetrain on a bicycle may be worth the increased effort and cost for some; i doubt you get better technical performance (as in: lower friction).

Always good to have some pure baseless speculation in a thread calling out a somewhat imprecise testing methodology

[FriarQuade]

Originally Posted by fa63

I switched from Rock-n-Roll Gold to wax several years ago, and have indeed noticed a lower wear rate. That said, I do agree with Hambini that it would be nice if there was a way to shift the rear derailleur up and down the cassette in a repeatable way during testing. What I noticed with my last SRAM chain was that while "elongation" was not an issue, it started not shifting as crisply after about 6,000 miles so I replaced it.

But as glepore stated, another huge benefit of wax for me is the cleanliness of the drivetrain (and the silence as well).

This is exactly the reason why we made a tool to measure lateral wear.

[benb]

How long do these wax products last? Not in terms of how long the chain lasts but how long the wax itself lasts?

ZFC is selling Rex Black Diamond and highly recommending it, it is $94 (AU?) for one box.

Hard to say how big it is from the pictures. Sounds like it's 480g, do you put all that in your wax cooker? Some of the reviews say they claim "wax dozens" of chains but what does all that really mean? 480g doesn't sound like much in the context of melting it in a crock pot.

That's somewhere between the cost of 48-64oz of the drip lube I often end up with (rock and roll as others mentioned) depending on whether the high price is just an $AU thing or a ZFC upcharge. I never buy huge containers of chain lube.. it makes me think that container of chain wax costs the equivalent of at least a 5 year supply of drip lube?

My problem with almost all this stuff is it's lots of sensational claims and as Hambini says it's all very sketchy. The way he is targetting ZFC is weird but maybe that's just because ZFC revealed enough for someone to be critical.
Most of the bike products you have absolutely no way of knowing if it's all smoke and mirrors. It can't be critiqued because they will never show how they justify their claims. But even if it's not sketchy it is still somewhat marginal and also somewhat doesn't matter for a lot of bike use cases. Also if the lubricant/wax costs more than a new cassette/chain the bar is high for showing that lubricant makes the cassette/chain last long enough to justify such expensive treatments.

It makes me think more effort should be put in to getting the absolute best deal on whatever you do decide to use than worrying about which one is actually technically superior. If the differences in the products are overstated any wear differences might not matter compared to how much money you saved on the products.

[fourflys]

haven't watched the video as I genuinely can't stand Hambini and his schtick, but I'll weigh in anyway..

I agree with a few of the folks saying the "watts saved" argument is null for most of us (paraphrasing).. I currently use the Silca Synergetic and it seems to work really well, but it does still leave the chain a bit dirty to the touch.. If I did ever go wax (maybe..), it would be solely for the hope of cleanliness and nothing else..

I have no idea how good ZFC's procedures are from a scientific view, but if he is starting with a fresh chain, stripping the factory grease and applying other lubes per directions and then measuring life of the chain, that's better than most other claims by manufacturers.. I dunno.. but Hambini still comes off as an annoying arse..

[benb]

ZFCs measuring equipment not being able to measure the difference he is claiming between the different products is pretty damning all by itself.

I just wandered over to ZFC's youtube channel and almost immediately he's watching other people's Youtube videos and saying they're wrong and then making pretty outrageous claims.

edit: I realize in that second line you can change ZFC to Hambini and it's 100% true as well.

[martl]

Originally Posted by Talrand

Always good to have some pure baseless speculation in a thread calling out a somewhat imprecise testing methodology

Calling someones posting "pure baseless speculation" without any explanation or rationale sure helps to raise the quality, mate.

My assertation on Hambinis article stems from me working as a test engineer at Bosch. He has points that a) matter and b) are correct.
the part about the use cases for wax-based chain lube i tokk almost verbatim from the "Klüber Lubrication" website.

Do you have factual information contradicting what i wrote?

[dgauthier]

You can't do legitimate testing and also sell the products you're testing.

ZFC is a store that sells extremely expensive blocks of wax. It's worth remembering a kilogram of paraffin wax costs around $3 bucks. ZFC's prices hover around $100 per kilo. That starts my bull detector ringing big time.

I read ZFC's site the very first time with some interest -- until I noticed they were selling the products they were testing. Then I realized the testing was just more-entertaining-than-usual marketing.

[fa63]

I don't think he has always had an online store. My understanding is that he started subsequently selling the products that did very well in his testing.

Originally Posted by dgauthier

You can't do legitimate testing and also sell the products you're testing.

ZFC is a store that sells extremely expensive blocks of wax. It's worth remembering a kilogram of paraffin wax costs around $3 bucks. ZFC's prices hover around $100 per kilo. That starts my bull detector ringing big time.

I read ZFC's site the very first time with some interest -- until I noticed they were selling the products they were testing. Then I realized the testing was just more-entertaining-than-usual marketing.

[Mikej]

Originally Posted by benb

How long do these wax products last? Not in terms of how long the chain lasts but how long the wax itself lasts?

ZFC is selling Rex Black Diamond and highly recommending it, it is $94 (AU?) for one box.

Hard to say how big it is from the pictures. Sounds like it's 480g, do you put all that in your wax cooker? Some of the reviews say they claim "wax dozens" of chains but what does all that really mean? 480g doesn't sound like much in the context of melting it in a crock pot.

That's somewhere between the cost of 48-64oz of the drip lube I often end up with (rock and roll as others mentioned) depending on whether the high price is just an $AU thing or a ZFC upcharge. I never buy huge containers of chain lube.. it makes me think that container of chain wax costs the equivalent of at least a 5 year supply of drip lube?

My problem with almost all this stuff is it's lots of sensational claims and as Hambini says it's all very sketchy. The way he is targetting ZFC is weird but maybe that's just because ZFC revealed enough for someone to be critical.
Most of the bike products you have absolutely no way of knowing if it's all smoke and mirrors. It can't be critiqued because they will never show how they justify their claims. But even if it's not sketchy it is still somewhat marginal and also somewhat doesn't matter for a lot of bike use cases. Also if the lubricant/wax costs more than a new cassette/chain the bar is high for showing that lubricant makes the cassette/chain last long enough to justify such expensive treatments.

It makes me think more effort should be put in to getting the absolute best deal on whatever you do decide to use than worrying about which one is actually technically superior. If the differences in the products are overstated any wear differences might not matter compared to how much money you saved on the products.

Waxing to me is about the cleanliness- I also enjoy messing around with bikes and find waxing to be a satisfying way to wind down. I’ve used the Black Diamond wax - it is 12 squares but only 1 square is the added ingredients, the other 11 are just wax. It is the best wax I’ve used vs Silca and Molten. I’d say I got 40 chains out of it easy. You can get it from
https://www.newmoonski.com/?gad_sour...iACEgKLoPD_BwE

[dgauthier]

Originally Posted by fa63

I don't think he has always had an online store. My understanding is that he started subsequently selling the products that did very well in his testing.

Yes, I do seem to recall that now that you mention it. So let's be generous and say despite his best intentions he went from legitimate testing to high conflict-of-interest testing.

[bshell]

I remember the same as you two folks above. I also think I remember he stated that straight paraffin was =98% of the commercial products regarding effectiveness.

I get a 1# block of paraffin from $6 - $8 and it lasts a whole lotta chains -but I haven't counted. Because $6-8.

I perceived(!) an increase in performance the first time out but don't care about that aspect at all.

[mstateglfr]

Originally Posted by kiwisimon

DGAF?

I'd hit that.

Nailed it.

[benb]

Originally Posted by Mikej

Waxing to me is about the cleanliness- I also enjoy messing around with bikes and find waxing to be a satisfying way to wind down. I’ve used the Black Diamond wax - it is 12 squares but only 1 square is the added ingredients, the other 11 are just wax. It is the best wax I’ve used vs Silca and Molten. I’d say I got 40 chains out of it easy. You can get it from
https://www.newmoonski.com/?gad_sour...iACEgKLoPD_BwE

$56 US is $82 AUS so that explains the prices at ZFC.

Still a lot of money. You mean you got 40 dunks of the chain? Or the product lasts long enough to wear through 40 chains? If the former this sounds expensive, if the latter it sounds cheap.

I think most of us have never gotten anywhere close to wearing out 40 chains...

For me across all the bike stuff the more marginal the claims on some new expensive product the higher the bar should be for them to really prove it's real. I don't think we see that in any particular area, most of the time we see nothing but marketing.

[Mikej]

40+ chains