The official Campagnolo WRL discussion thread

[KonaSS]

Wireless can have several advantages. Old Spudly says it is only assembly, but as an owner of Sram wireless and Shimano Di2, there are several advantages of ownership or living with a wireless system.

So performance on bike once everything is built is no different. That I give to Spudly.

Charging batteries is much easier for wireless. I would much rather take off 2 small batteries than have to take my bike off the wall and bring over to a wall outlet. The offset here is length of holding charge as internal batteries are usually much bigger, but I get a month of charge per battery (12,000 mile per year rider) and if needed, put your battery on the charger when you are prepping bottles and getting dressed and I guarantee that you will have enough charge for your day.

If you are out on the road and running low on charge, Sram absolutely wins across all systems with the ability to switch batteries between front and rear derailleur. Shimano sucks - your front shifting is likely to go out first and I have been stuck in my front small ring numerous times.

Finally, troubleshooting with the small wireless cheap batteries is much easier. My Shimano Di2 bike does have a problem.. Only holds a charge for a couple weeks. We have tried replacing the battery, which was a 3 day shop visit. But nothing has worked so far. I guess the next step is another shop visit so they can check the internal wires and try and find the gremlin in the system. More cost and more time without a bike. With Sram, I would have tried a new battery in 3 seconds and had an answer if that was the problem.

And of course there is build time AND the advantage of not having to design a bike around wires and internal batteries.

Wireless just makes more sense and is clearly what all 3 manufacturers would go to if Sram didn't have patents creating issues for them.

[oldpotatoe]

Originally Posted by KonaSS

Wireless can have several advantages. Old Spudly says it is only assembly, but as an owner of Sram wireless and Shimano Di2, there are several advantages of ownership or living with a wireless system.

So performance on bike once everything is built is no different. That I give to Spudly.

Charging batteries is much easier for wireless. I would much rather take off 2 small batteries than have to take my bike off the wall and bring over to a wall outlet. The offset here is length of holding charge as internal batteries are usually much bigger, but I get a month of charge per battery (12,000 mile per year rider) and if needed, put your battery on the charger when you are prepping bottles and getting dressed and I guarantee that you will have enough charge for your day.

If you are out on the road and running low on charge, Sram absolutely wins across all systems with the ability to switch batteries between front and rear derailleur. Shimano sucks - your front shifting is likely to go out first and I have been stuck in my front small ring numerous times.

Finally, troubleshooting with the small wireless cheap batteries is much easier. My Shimano Di2 bike does have a problem.. Only holds a charge for a couple weeks. We have tried replacing the battery, which was a 3 day shop visit. But nothing has worked so far. I guess the next step is another shop visit so they can check the internal wires and try and find the gremlin in the system. More cost and more time without a bike. With Sram, I would have tried a new battery in 3 seconds and had an answer if that was the problem.

And of course their is build time AND the advantage of not having to design a bike around wires and internal batteries.

Wireless just makes more sense and is clearly what all 3 manufacturers would go to if Sram didn't have patents creating issues for them.

Huzzah, that was always my point.

Yup, dead or faulty batteries can be a pain...as well as one in the lever, wihich makes your sram levers inop...shift one direction only and no front der...but y'all know that...

Wireless certainly makes marketing sense. It's a HUGE 'selling point' on that complete bike on the floor.

I wonder why shimano didn't go wireless. If Campagnolo can do it(patents), pretty sure a monolith like shimano could. They probably have more lawyers than Campag has assembly workers.

But wired or wireless or semi-wireless among pros,.they don't GAS..they ride what's handed to them.

[callmeishmael]

I think I've said this before, but there is no doubt that if you have a not-obviously-explicable problem with electronic, that can be a huge headache, especially if you're away with the bike, at a weekend. On the off chance you do have an issue, if you have a spare cable and basic tools, you can probably get it working at least ok in your hotel room. The 2 genuinely high-level racers I know both ride mechanical out of choice for that reason.

AXS goes halfway to solving this problem, insofar as there are no wires or possible loose connections, and the ability to remove a battery for travel stops the 'shift button has been on in the car for 4 hours and now my battery is dead' scenario.

I'll also add from experience that having a battery in a seat tube that is just a touch too small for the post is a GIGANTIC pain when you have an issue with it.

I'll stop before I talk myself back into Record mechanical If I was better at fettling Campagnolo it might be different, but both Chorus and Ekar resisted my attempts at getting them to shift absolutely perfectly :-/

[tomato coupe]

Originally Posted by oldpotatoe

You forgot the or the or the :

Can I use all three?

[tomato coupe]

Originally Posted by KonaSS

Wireless just makes more sense and is clearly what all 3 manufacturers would go to if Sram didn't have patents creating issues for them.

Not necessarily.

[BdaGhisallo]

Originally Posted by oldpotatoe

Huzzah, that was always my point.

I wonder why shimano didn't go wireless.

Probably wanted to keep the derailleurs to a reasonable size, and I appreciate that.

[Mark McM]

Originally Posted by KonaSS

Wireless just makes more sense and is clearly what all 3 manufacturers would go to if Sram didn't have patents creating issues for them.

It's been mentioned here many times, but SRAM does not, and never did, hold a patent on wireless shifting. They can't, because they didn't do it first (and the original patents from over 20 years ago have already expired). SRAM only has patents to certain implementations of wireless shifting, which are easy to get around, as both both Shimano and Campagnolo have done.

Personally, I think SRAM's patent on interchangeable front and rear derailleur batteries is invalid and should never have been issued. If I were Campagnolo, I would simply gone ahead and used interchangeable batteries, and let SRAM try to sue me (I'm guessing any suit would have been thrown out without even going to trial).

[Ryun]

Having assembled a few dozen eps bikes in my opinion The weakest point on the Campy EPS system was the connectors for the wires.
They are fragile, pins can bend easy, usually take a bit of filing to get thru holes in the frame, etc. The connection at the lever and getting it back under the cover was a huge hassle and I've seen that go badly. Tons of extra length of wire stuffed in the bike and handlebars since they are sized for the largest of bike and no options for shorter wires..
Replacing an individual component like the battery means essentially breaking down the whole bike. Shimano e wire system is leaps and bounds above that.
Once installed the performance IMO is as good as anything out there and brake feel is amazing for a disc bike. So if nothing goes sideways on install or no components fail, the wired group is great.
I was ok with the standard 11-32 with a 52/36 but Im sure the mid one will be plenty for me. Aside from cost, I will not miss the wires at all if the shifting performance is level with the wired group.

[rain dogs]

Originally Posted by Mark McM

It's been mentioned here many times, but SRAM does not, and never did, hold a patent on wireless shifting. They can't, because they didn't do it first (and the original patents from over 20 years ago have already expired). SRAM only has patents to certain implementations of wireless shifting, which are easy to get around, as both both Shimano and Campagnolo have done.

Personally, I think SRAM's patent on interchangeable front and rear derailleur batteries is invalid and should never have been issued. If I were Campagnolo, I would simply gone ahead and used interchangeable batteries, and let SRAM try to sue me (I'm guessing any suit would have been thrown out without even going to trial).

I think the two different batteries was a trojan horse. It made all the other possible patent claims against Campagnolo that much more difficult to attack. Campag was able to sneak in through that door, vs have to defend likely multiple 'tighter' cases.

[Mark McM]

Originally Posted by rain dogs

I think the two different batteries was a trojan horse. It made all the other possible patent claims against Campagnolo that much more difficult to attack. Campag was able to sneak in through that door, vs have to defend likely multiple 'tighter' cases.

I think it might be more due to Campagnolo being adverse to challenging IP in general (regardless of it's validity). Look how fast Campagnolo acted to rename their Daytona components, even though Nascar's claim to the Daytona was very weak. There's also a bit of an unspoken agreement not to challenge another bike companies patents, lest they challenge yours (and risk collapsing the whole house of cards).

[mcteague]

When I was shopping for a new custom bike I was also looking into which electronic group to get. I had mechanical Campy on my bikes so was looking there first. One well known custom builder, who I won't out, told me he stopped offering EPS on his bikes as he had too many issues. Some, had to be shipped back to Italy when Campy USA could not figure it out.

Tim

[rain dogs]

Originally Posted by Mark McM

I think it might be more due to Campagnolo being adverse to challenging IP in general (regardless of it's validity). Look how fast Campagnolo acted to rename their Daytona components, even though Nascar's claim to the Daytona was very weak. There's also a bit of an unspoken agreement not to challenge another bike companies patents, lest they challenge yours (and risk collapsing the whole house of cards).

Sounds like we're saying the same thing. Campagnolo doesn't want to be taking increasing any risks of a bunch of patent claims in court, so I think they're willing to go the extra mile to ensure it doesn't happen - evidenced by the press presentation where there spoke about patent navigation very openly and very repeatedly.

[Mark McM]

Originally Posted by rain dogs

Sounds like we're saying the same thing. Campagnolo doesn't want to be taking increasing any risks of a bunch of patent claims in court, so I think they're willing to go the extra mile to ensure it doesn't happen - evidenced by the press presentation where there spoke about patent navigation very openly and very repeatedly.

I think we might actually be saying something different. I'm hypothesizing that the reason bicycle companies don't challenge IP is not because of the possible liabilities of being found to have violated the IP rights of other companies; but because it breaks the unspoken agreement not to challenge other company's IP because then they might then go ahead and challenge your IP (and thus risk losing exclusivity when its been found out both companies had invalid patents).

More established companies may stick to this norm of not challenge other companies IP, but smaller companies may have less to lose. A recent example is Princeton CarbonWorks, a small builder of carbon wheels. They were sued by Zipp/SRAM who clamied Princeton CarbonWorks vioalted one of their patents. Princeton CarbonWorks did not bow to Zipp/SRAM's legal onslought (Zipp/SRAM was seeking triple damages and the destruction of all inventory), but Princeton CarbonWorks took it all the way to court. A jury decided that Princeton CarbonWorks did not infrince Zipp/SRAMs patents*, and they were not due any damages. There are likely many more cases were claims of IP go to far, and should be challenged.


*In this particular case, Zipp/SRAM probably shot themselves in the foot when they said their undulating rim shape was taken from the fins of humpback whales - there is already precedence that you can't patent something found in nature.)

[Dave]

Here's a link to pics of a real bike build with the new Campy wireless.

https://weightweenies.starbike.com/f...13781#p1813781

[Coffee Rider]

Originally Posted by Dave

Here's a link to pics of a real bike build with the new Campy wireless.

https://weightweenies.starbike.com/f...13781#p1813781

That sounds promising.