OT - Patriots, again- say it aint so Bill

[kevinvc]

Originally Posted by pbarry

The Pats will go into decline if he gets the helm. Just musing..

It's almost definite that the Pats will go into decline within the next 2 years regardless of who is coaching. This isn't meant to be a knock on them, but their QB is old and looked mortal much of this year. Gronk should retire, but even if he comes back is unlikely to be his same Gronkness for a full season. Brady's inevitable continued decline and lack of an heir apparent, as well as the disruption of losing other players and staff almost definitely means the end of their unprecedented dynasty.

[Ray]

One observation and a question for you far more knowledgable in the ways of the Pats.

The observation is that until Sunday, the Pats hadn't won or lost a Super Bowl by more than 4 points in the Brady/Belichek era (except for last year's OT game, which ended in a tie until they scored the lone TD in OT). So, while Sunday was still a one possession game at the end, it was a relative blowout, though only relative. So for sure, Pats fans can point to a play here or a call there that might have changed the outcome, but that would be the case in all of those previous games too, whether that would have gained them additional wins against the Giants or additional losses in any of the 5 they won... While the first three wins FELT pretty decisive (even though they were really close), the last two felt like the Pats were extremely fortunate to have a chance to pull them out.

The question is what's going on up there? I wasn't really aware of what happened with Garoppolo. Assuming Brady only has another year or two coming, why would they trade him? Was he about to hit free agency and they figured they'd better get something for him before he did? I didn't realize until this past week that BB wanted to keep him, but Kraft and, ostensibly, Brady (??) wanted the trade to happen because Brady get's to determine how and when he steps away from the game. Did Belichek want to keep him as the heir apparent for TB? That sounds like a recipe for really bad blood between Belicheck and Kraft and probably Brady too?

And now this McDaniel thing - does Brady get to call his own shots but Belichek doesn't? Is he being forced out after his current contract is up next year to clear the way for McDaniel? Or is McDaniel just a flake? Between that stuff and Brady coming out seemingly in support of Butler, it sounds like Belichek is really on the outs up there. Which I find more than surprising given how successful he's been for so long. I'm not a close Pats watcher, so my knowledge of this stuff is basically from the few days before the Super Bowl and the few days since.

What am I missing here? If this is what it sounds like, it seems like this past season was their last best chance. Sounds like the major players will mostly be back for one more season, so maybe they get back for another shot at the crown, but how cohesive will it be? And after that, it sounds like it probably falls apart pretty quickly...

I've mostly been checking out Philly media to soak in the euphoria (from a distance - I'm out of the area for another month). But yesterday I listened to a couple hours of Boston sports radio while I was doing stuff around the house just to see how folks were reacting. And pretty much the ONLY think people were talking about was the Butler situation, with BB and Patricia coming in for basically all of the criticism. The fans were angry that day my friends! I imagine the McDaniel thing is topic #1 today...

-Ray

[pdmtong]

Originally Posted by Ray

One observation and a question for you far more knowledgable in the ways of the Pats.

The observation is that until Sunday, the Pats hadn't won or lost a Super Bowl by more than 4 points in the Brady/Belichek era (except for last year's OT game, which ended in a tie until they scored the lone TD in OT). So, while Sunday was still a one possession game at the end, it was a relative blowout, though only relative. So for sure, Pats fans can point to a play here or a call there that might have changed the outcome, but that would be the case in all of those previous games too, whether that would have gained them additional wins against the Giants or additional losses in any of the 5 they won... While the first three wins FELT pretty decisive (even though they were really close), the last two felt like the Pats were extremely fortunate to have a chance to pull them out.

Of their five wins, IMHO only the two against the rams and the eagles (first time) were decisive to me. And, the rams win was helped by an unlikely pick six before half (kinda like harrison picking warner a few years later at the goal line - steelers should not have won that SB)

Most people would argue the Panthers had that SB if the KO doesnt go OB, the Hawks go BeastMode twice and win that game, and of course the Falcons dont gaffe. In fairness, the Tyree catch was a fluke that prevented 19-0. that's a heartbreak for any fan of the game even if you hate on the Pats.

so even if we coin flip the panthers, I think they are more like 3-4 in Superbowls before last Sunday.

But that's sport. There is no unwinding what did happen from what should have happened. if that was the case buckner catches that ball and franco does not get the immaculate reception

[wooly]

Originally Posted by pdmtong

Of their five wins, IMHO only the two against the rams and the eagles (first time) were decisive to me. And, the rams win was helped by an unlikely pick six before half (kinda like harrison picking warner a few years later at the goal line - steelers should not have won that SB)

Most people would argue the Panthers had that SB if the KO doesnt go OB, the Hawks go BeastMode twice and win that game, and of course the Falcons dont gaffe. In fairness, the Tyree catch was a fluke that prevented 19-0. that's a heartbreak for any fan of the game even if you hate on the Pats.

so even if we coin flip the panthers, I think they are more like 3-4 in Superbowls before last Sunday.

But that's sport. There is no unwinding what did happen from what should have happened. if that was the case buckner catches that ball and franco does not get the immaculate reception

Dude, your such a sage...

[MattTuck]

The fact they have been to so many super bowls and afc championship games is much more impressive than the win/loss record in the big game, imo.

[cadence90]

.... ..
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[Climb01742]

Just remember, the coulda, shoulda, woulda game cuts both ways...

Both losses to Giants hinged on a single play. One a catch Wes Welker dropped. And one a catch David Tyree made with his helmet, who by the way, never caught another pass in his career.

So if you really want to play this game, Pats could be 7-1. Truth is, sports turn on tiniest margins for every team.

[Corso]

Butler: his agent caused trouble last season, he ends up with a 1 year contract, Kraft was not going to have that again. Message sent to team (and Gronk) and league: don’t f with us. We don’t care who you are…we’ll F back.

Butler is good, but be honest, he’s not as critical as say, Brady.

Baltimore: They started deflate gate. Kraft used this as revenge gate. Also had Patricia to deal with during season, didn’t want to make the pick (of future head coach) an issue. So they let both assistant coaches go, knowing they could get McDaniel (who they wanted) back and F the Colts at the same time.

Both moves: kill many birds with few stones.

Darth Belichik and Sith Lord Kraft.

[72gmc]

Originally Posted by pdmtong

buckner catches that ball

Never a Red Sox fan but I still remember watching that play, and I still can't believe it every time I see a replay of that play.

[Corso]

Originally Posted by kevinvc

but their QB is old and looked mortal much of this year.

Yeah, BRADY Most Valuable Player of the NFL for 2017.

Other QBs dream of being so “mortal” and “on the decline”...

[fignon's barber]

Best photo from the Super Bowl:

[pdmtong]

Originally Posted by Climb01742

Just remember, the coulda, shoulda, woulda game cuts both ways...

Both losses to Giants hinged on a single play. One a catch Wes Welker dropped. And one a catch David Tyree made with his helmet, who by the way, never caught another pass in his career.

So if you really want to play this game, Pats could be 7-1. Truth is, sports turn on tiniest margins for every team.

I think that is why this year's SB was so great to watch - huge offensive chunks, no lead safe, but in the end, the team that deserved to win did win. The Eagles did not get lucky. They consistently made plays all game and sooner or later they were going to get to TB12. And they got the play when they needed it.

The thinnest of margins...yes, true. the only reason the hawks were even at the goal line to have a chance to win was due to an unreal sideline catch. kind of like if eric wright misses the jersey tackle on drew pearson no one would be talking about dwight clark and joe montana and "the catch" now.

I agree...the consistency in winning the division, making it to the AFC championship with a revolving door of key position players is astounding and unlikely to ever be repeated. TB played in 8 SB's? Most QBs dont even last half that time for their careers.

[pdmtong]

Originally Posted by Corso

So they let both assistant coaches go, knowing they could get McDaniel (who they wanted) back and F the Colts at the same time.

This goes back to all the brady-manning face-offs, right?

[kevinvc]

Originally Posted by Corso

Yeah, BRADY Most Valuable Player of the NFL for 2017.

Other QBs dream of being so “mortal” and “on the decline”...

I never said he had a bad year. I would say it's certainly debatable whether his performance was the best of any QB of the regular season. He wasn't clearly head and shoulders above everyone else.

And yes, it is more than reasonable to expect that a 40 year old QB is going to decline over the next couple of years.

There was no disrespect given towards him, I don't know why you feel like he was attacked and needed defending.

[makoti]

Originally Posted by pdmtong

I think that is why this year's SB was so great to watch - huge offensive chunks, no lead safe, but in the end, the team that deserved to win did win.

I'm going to argue that this SB wasn't that great to watch. Maybe because I didn't care who won, or that there is a dark place in my heart for both of them, but I never had any excitement for this game. At no time did I think either team could stop the other. It was like an NBA match. Go down, score, come back, score. Even the final drive, which the Pats began at their 10, the ball was in the endzone for the final play. I don't want to watch a 3-0 game, but this wasn't a very good example of football, to me. Setting records isn't always interesting.