The ongoing hookless rims saga

[fa63]

That is what they are designed to do; act like a bead shelf to prevent the tire from moving inward when it loses air. Whether they work as intended 100% of the time under all possible tire-rim combinations, I don't have the answer to that.

Originally Posted by MikeD

About these Vittoria tire inserts, this claim is made on the Vittoria website:

In the event of a puncture, the Air-Liner road expands to fill the void, keeping the tire secure on the rim bead

Seems like this is a bogus claim (or maybe it works for hook beaded rims but not hookless).

[prototoast]

Originally Posted by MikeD

About these Vittoria tire inserts, this claim is made on the Vittoria website:

In the event of a puncture, the Air-Liner road expands to fill the void, keeping the tire secure on the rim bead

Seems like this is a bogus claim (or maybe it works for hook beaded rims but not hookless).

A tire losing air from a puncture is very different than a tire blowing off the rim from excess pressure, which is very different than a tire blowing off the rim because the rim cracked.

The air liner, even if working as intended, only addresses one of those three situations.

[EB]

You need much more than one sample to make a probabilistic claim about most things.

Though that also works against Vittoria. I’d be curious what sort of testing they did in order to make that claim, how often that claim it’s effective, and what confidence interval they provide on that claim.

[RoosterCogset]

Originally Posted by fourflys

the question I would have is what does the rim say? My CX2 rims on my Revolt has a sticker that says "do not inflate over 65psi", which should be fine for the intended applications on for that rim (gravel).. from the picture you posted, I have no idea of the intended use of that tire.. is it intended for use on hooked or hookless rims? regardless, you have to go with the lowest max of any system when combining things I think.. I won't lie, it would seem like a Giant tire and rim would be designed in unison with each other.. but, as I said, that tire might be intended to have use with more than just Giant rims..

*also, not sure of the age of that pic, but 28mm is not recommended for hookless anyway, as discussed in a couple other posts in the thread..

Giant/Cadex (same company) is a 'unison' combo supposedly. Eg. this bike:
https://www.giant-bicycles.com/us/tc...sl-disc-1-2022

is sold with 25mm tubeless tires and hookless rims. And you take Giant's PSI calculator, it will not hesitate to return pressures above 80 or 90psi for this setup.

[cuda]

tldr - maybe it's been debunked by the experts but is anyone talking about the green foamy insert? From the perspective of one of the dumbest guys in the room, it seems like if a the wheel took a significant impact from a rock or pot hole the compressed foam would need somewhere to go. The internal lateral pressure on the sidewall of the tire seems like would cause a tubeless tire to blow off a rim. (?)

signed: living dangerously on Cadex wheels.

[tomato coupe]

Originally Posted by EB

You need much more than one sample to make a probabilistic claim about most things.

You can calculate probabilities from one event, but you have to interpret them correctly.

[Spdntrxi]

Originally Posted by cuda

tldr - maybe it's been debunked by the experts but is anyone talking about the green foamy insert? From the perspective of one of the dumbest guys in the room, it seems like if a the wheel took a significant impact from a rock or pot hole the compressed foam would need somewhere to go. The internal lateral pressure on the sidewall of the tire seems like would cause a tubeless tire to blow off a rim. (?)

signed: living dangerously on Cadex wheels.

from someone who actually uses the pool sticks.. that is a no. Its not that compressed in there to be honest.. it's not the cause of the tire blow offs.

[cuda]

Originally Posted by Spdntrxi

from someone who actually uses the pool sticks.. that is a no. Its not that compressed in there to be honest.. it's not the cause of the tire blow offs.

Thanks. I've never used them. Are you using them on hookless rims?

[Spdntrxi]

Originally Posted by cuda

Thanks. I've never used them. Are you using them on hookless rims?

yes

Cadex 50 Ultra- road. and I have ridden 15miles + on a flat at speeds approaching 30. Would I corner like a crit = no
Enve 6.7 - road
Enve G23 - gravel
Classified G30 - gravel

first 3 are hookless.

[Mark McM]

Originally Posted by prototoast

A tire losing air from a puncture is very different than a tire blowing off the rim from excess pressure, which is very different than a tire blowing off the rim because the rim cracked.

The air liner, even if working as intended, only addresses one of those three situations.

True, but a tire flatted from a puncture is the most common situation of the 3 (or at least with hooked rims, anyway).

[Spdntrxi]

Originally Posted by Mark McM

True, but a tire flatted from a puncture is the most common situation of the 3 (or at least with hooked rims, anyway).

Indeed.. I count on it working on the most common. I'd rather not have to test it on the other 2

[prototoast]

Originally Posted by Mark McM

True, but a tire flatted from a puncture is the most common situation of the 3 (or at least with hooked rims, anyway).

My point was just the tire blowoffs being discussed in this thread are not the type of mishap tire liners are designed to prevent, and so judging them against that standard is not meaningful.

[FastCanon]

How many years have hookless been out and how many years have the pros used them and now it's a problem?

[jimoots]

Originally Posted by FastCanon

How many years have hookless been out and how many years have the pros used them and now it's a problem?

I believe last year was the first season that hookless became widespread in the peleton. The only incident I recall raising an eyebrow to was Jay Vine's random descending 'mechanical' at the Vuelta, but I'm sure there were others.

I remember Mitch Docker talking about the team testing tubeless in his final years (2020/2021) with prototype tyre liners, EF were one of the first on that front. That was on hooked rims (Vision did/do not make a hookless road rim).

Cast your mind back. In 2021, a majority of the pro peleton were still on tubulars. But since tyre liners were found to give levels of 'ride flat' safety similar or superior to tubulars, it's been a swift move to tubeless clinchers with *some* teams also going full hookless.

This move has been all about reducing rolling resistance; hookless (in the pro peleton at least) has kind of been introduced on the sly or by trojan or however you want to pitch it due to sponsor commitments.

Labouring on that. It is the teams on Zipp or Enve (and maybe Hunt) wheels that are hookless; Shimano, Roval, Reserve, Bontrager, HED and Vision are not hookless.

So to your point, they've been used in the pro peleton for a couple of years and they seem to have been a problem over that period. But given the fact they are being used more, and problems increasing with that use, it has attracted due attention.

[MikeD]

Originally Posted by prototoast

My point was just the tire blowoffs being discussed in this thread are not the type of mishap tire liners are designed to prevent, and so judging them against that standard is not meaningful.

We don't know why de Gendt's tire came off the rim. You're assuming it was a blow off. Vittoria says he hit a rock. Who really knows?