OT: Ray, how's your Bitcoin investment going?

[93legendti]

Originally Posted by slidey

I agree that Venezuela has had its own share of issues - but for all its faults there are two things that are a certainty:

1. The Venezuelan election system is widely regarded as incorrigible, even by its detractors.

2. Chavez brought oil under govt control, and with the revenues he actually did social good - set up schools, govt run hospitals, housing for the poor, etc.

A major criticism of the Bolivarian Revolution in Venezuela has been #2 above, that he generated huge revenues from oil and put very little back into it. Although if you refer to the cornerstones of Bolivarianism there is more similarities in there with pragamatic capitalism, than differences with the only exception being South American economic and political sovereignty, since the means to achieve this was cutting out access to oil to oil co's of foreign nations.

Why then in the US is there such a poor view of Chavez despite him being democratically elected thrice? Is it due to the sour taste left in the mouth of american legislators by the indirect US-aided coup attempt in 2002 (See Q5), during which the people protested to bring Chavez back to power hence giving unprecedented legitimacy to Chavez's policies even outside of the ballot box? Is it due to the fact that Venezuela's natural resources are nationalised, hence making it impossible for foreign oil co's to exploit? Or is it due to the proximity of Chavez to Castro? Is it due to the fact that for a long time Bolivarian economics was actually performing well, hence posing a threat to the overtly capitalistic intentions of Wall St and their lobbied puppets? All these are valid questions, and being unbiased by virtue of not belonging to any of the contested nationalities/interests herein I've found it rather easy to at least partially laud the Bolivarian economics.

At the present, yes there definitely is a crisis in terms of inflation in the country. Let's see where Maduro can lead the country.

By the way, this video is quite an unbiased, in my view, discussion of the Venezuelan economics.

Yeah, Venezula is the second coming of the Garden of Eden. I hear the citizens are thrilled:

"The anti-government demonstrations are the biggest threat President Nicolas Maduro has faced since his election last year. And inside and outside the South American country's borders, there's a major question many are asking: Could this be the beginning of the end for Venezuela's socialist
The situation doesn't look pretty. Inflation topped 56% last year. Crime rates are high. Goods shortages have left store shelves bare."

http://www.cnn.com/2014/02/22/world/...ism/index.html

[sg8357]

Originally Posted by Rada

What seems really scary about the mess with Mt. Gox and the whole Bitcoin/virtual currency thing is the refusal of the Japanese government to get involved.[snip].

The point of BitCoin is to be independent of evil job killing government
regulation. Crowd sourced justice and regulation is BitCoin's protection.

So unless MtGOX was destroyed by Godzilla the Japanese will stand
aside.

[christian]

Originally Posted by sg8357

So unless MtGOX was destroyed by Godzilla the Japanese will stand aside.

No, the BoJ and JFSA will stand aside. Presumably the local Tokyo PD will be interested in fraud. I've never tried to steal millions of dollars' worth of someone's property in Tokyo, but I imagine the Japanese police take a dim view of it, whether it be Van Gogh paintings, Magic the Gathering cards, or Bitcoins.

[Pete Mckeon]

I THINK IT IS AT LEAST 6,

ALTHOUGH CPI IS LESS AND THE GOV IS WANTING TO CHNGE THE WAY OF MEASURING CPI

SO that IT HAS A SMALLER inflation number - FOR THOSE THINGS LIke BONDS AND SOCIAL SECURITY, as well as INFLATION ADJUSTED finance instruments of the feds .
lower reported INFLATION benefits government IOUs and the elected

Originally Posted by Ahneida Ride

At least you know they shrink 6% per year.

taking emotion out of this inflation has always been around - as recorded by history all over the world.

the USA is better than most countries ___ but could also be
better itself.

Keith or any other moderator .such as Flyhest, can delete this rambling of mine
with my blessings

FOR they have more knowledge and patience than me

[Pete Mckeon]

but I will rather play the financial markets with Germany or Swiss, or even the USA. lets talk over it with friends and some good red wine,

in NC preferably I have some wine waiting

Originally Posted by sg8357

The point of BitCoin is to be independent of evil job killing government
regulation. Crowd sourced justice and regulation is BitCoin's protection.

So unless MtGOX was destroyed by Godzilla the Japanese will stand
aside.

[gavingould]

Originally Posted by R2D2

So do you just barter? Have gold stuffed in a mattress?

not exactly. i do use a bank, but stay away from credit cards. at some point i will need to look seriously at planning for retirement, but let's just say i haven't had the kind of income that it was a possibility.

[verticaldoug]

Originally Posted by sg8357

The point of BitCoin is to be independent of evil job killing government
regulation. Crowd sourced justice and regulation is BitCoin's protection.

So unless MtGOX was destroyed by Godzilla the Japanese will stand
aside.

Where is the cyberposse on the case? 850,000 bitcoins (6%) of the float was stolen.

Imagine if someone broke into the NY Fed, and stole 6% of the world's gold reserves. (NY Fed holds 25% of world's reserves)

D

[oldpotatoe]

Originally Posted by verticaldoug

Where is the cyberposse on the case? 850,000 bitcoins (6%) of the float was stolen.

Imagine if someone broke into the NY Fed, and stole 6% of the world's gold reserves. (NY Fed holds 25% of world's reserves)

D

If somebody stole 6% of the US gold stock, it weighs 972,000 pounds...

[fuzzalow]

I admittedly know little about Bitcoins and care about them even less than that. But the structure of what they represent as faux currency is all that is needed to know about how it can never be anything more than a scam and a means to theft of participant's real currencies. The slight of hand is the bartering of goods that lulls the participants to think there is a store of value in Bitcoins when all there is is a network of people trading worthless computer IOUs the way kids traded Pogs in schoolyards during recess.

Bitcoin exchanges are real currency roach motels - the money goes in and never comes out. How many exchanges really exist and is the same person or organization running all the exchanges? What's the total available liquidity in terms of real currency?

Any government cares not a whit about what private citizens do on matters of how they barter amongst themselves. But real currency has impact to trade, commerce and stability in real markets and real economies. And Bitcoins is never going to come within a whiff of seeing any of that action.

There is a entire shadow banking system already in place that governments and central banks would like to curtail. But at least even there are real financial instruments underlying those transactions. Bitcoins and and their manipulation and theft are largely a private matter and pose no threat except to Bitcoin participants.

54ny77 gave the answer a long time ago in this thread about Bitcoins.

Originally Posted by 54ny77

IMO, a system (or financial product) outside of the regulated currency-based systems are, and likely always will be, a destabilizing force that a government (or governments) will do their best to shut down. Or at the very least they will make it very difficult to be widely used by everyday citizens for everyday needs.

A decade or so ago i had a very interesting education on hawala by an EM money mgr., and the impact on a sovereign's money supply (and concurrent ability to issue & service its own debt).

The numbers then were staggering, and I cannot fathom how large the underground network is today.

Looks like Sweden or a Swedish bank is the first to really push to squash it. http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2014-0...ex-trader.html

[Pete Mckeon]

THE WALL STREET JOURNAL News Alert
Bitcoin Exchange Mt. Gox Files for Bankruptcy Protection
A lawyer for Mt. Gox announced at a news conference at the Tokyo District Court that the embattled bitcoin exchange was filing for bankruptcy protection and that Mt. Gox had outstanding debt of about $63.6 million.

The exchange has been under fire from investors since it stopped bitcoin withdrawals in early February, citing a technical issue that potentially made fraudulent withdrawals possible.

On Tuesday, Mt. Gox, which at one point handled more than 80% of trades in the virtual currency, stopped all transactions, dealing the severest blow to the bitcoin industry yet and raising concerns about a lack of protection for users.

See More Coverage »






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[R2D2]

Originally Posted by fuzzalow

I admittedly know little about Bitcoins and care about them even less than that. But the structure of what they represent as faux currency is all that is needed to know about how it can never be anything more than a scam and a means to theft of participant's real currencies. The slight of hand is the bartering of goods that lulls the participants to think there is a store of value in Bitcoins when all there is is a network of people trading worthless computer IOUs the way kids traded Pogs in schoolyards during recess.

Bitcoin exchanges are real currency roach motels - the money goes in and never comes out. How many exchanges really exist and is the same person or organization running all the exchanges? What's the total available liquidity in terms of real currency?

Any government cares not a whit about what private citizens do on matters of how they barter amongst themselves. But real currency has impact to trade, commerce and stability in real markets and real economies. And Bitcoins is never going to come within a whiff of seeing any of that action.

There is a entire shadow banking system already in place that governments and central banks would like to curtail. But at least even there are real financial instruments underlying those transactions. Bitcoins and and their manipulation and theft are largely a private matter and pose no threat except to Bitcoin participants.

54ny77 gave the answer a long time ago in this thread about Bitcoins.

In this case government needed to do nothing. Amateurs built an unregulated exchange and it crashed..

[fuzzalow]

Originally Posted by Pete Mckeon

THE WALL STREET JOURNAL News Alert
Bitcoin Exchange Mt. Gox Files for Bankruptcy Protection

I had not read that news report yet at the time of my previous post. I would not have posted if I had because it seems too much like saying "I told you so...". What I think about Bitcoins would be unchanged regardless.

[cfox]

Originally Posted by fuzzalow

I had not read that news report yet at the time of my previous post. I would not have posted if I had because it seems too much like saying "I told you so...". What I think about Bitcoins would be unchanged regardless.

The first thing anyone says when they decry bitcoin is they know nothing about bitcoin. It's not a "scam". It's early. It's the wild west. But there are hundreds of millions of silicon valley VC betting on its viability. Mt. Gox is a disaster. There will be more, I'm sure. But Mt. Gox is a story of incompetence, not a breach of the bitcoin protocol. I dabble in crypto currencies for fun. The exchange I use has, at the moment, a market in bitcoin $10mm a side bid/offer. Not too bad. After you trade, you can move your coins out of there right away. It's not a roach motel by any means. MF Global was a real life, regulated, honest-to-goodness roach motel. Jon Corzine took 40 grand from me and I'm still waiting to get it all back. Hey look, I don't know where it will all end up, but one exchange failing is a bit early to say "I told you so."

[FlashUNC]

I, for one, am shocked that a site that started as a trading exchange for Magic: The Gathering cards wasn't able to handle becoming the world's largest exchange of a crypto-currency.

And just why did people trust their money -- real or otherwise -- to these clowns?


http://valleywag.gawker.com/bitcoin-...arah-hedgecock

[fuzzalow]

Originally Posted by cfox

The first thing anyone says when they decry bitcoin is they know nothing about bitcoin. It's not a "scam". It's early. It's the wild west. But there are hundreds of millions of silicon valley VC betting on its viability.

OK, point taken that my limited knowledge of Bitcoin hinders my recognition of the value or solution it offers. Is it safe to say that the main thing it offers is a way to circumvent banking & financial transaction fees? Because if true, the payoff for me as a retail customer is NOT paying credit card fees or PayPal fees to move small to medium size amounts of money around. In this example, Amex & PayPal both charge ~3% to transact across which is a savings to me using Bitcoin. But this may be offset by the variable exchange rate in cashing in Bitcoins back to real currency if not completing a full one-way trip for the transaction.

I seek not a primer on Bitcoin, if I am wrong about the preceding, then simply advise and I will look further. But my actual point here is this is a very small payoff to me as a retail client to entrust a Bitcoin exchange to safeguard my money - a steekin' 3% savings!?!? Or is the real seduction the ability to "mine" bitcoins which I see as burning CPU cycles to "produce" bitcoins from thin air.

VC participation as an investment is a very different animal than the retail users with their money in Bitcoin exchanges.

Mt. Gox is a disaster. There will be more, I'm sure. But Mt. Gox is a story of incompetence, not a breach of the bitcoin protocol. I dabble in crypto currencies for fun. The exchange I use has, at the moment, a market in bitcoin $10mm a side bid/offer. Not too bad. After you trade, you can move your coins out of there right away. It's not a roach motel by any means. MF Global was a real life, regulated, honest-to-goodness roach motel. Jon Corzine took 40 grand from me and I'm still waiting to get it all back. Hey look, I don't know where it will all end up, but one exchange failing is a bit early to say "I told you so."

$10M side bid/offer is for all purposes a fictitious number. It will change, and certainly the spread will change, if the volatility, demand for liquidity and order imbalance were to heat up. In fairness, perhaps the daily aggregate dollar volume is enormous so there really is liquidity in the Bitcoin exchange. I dunno.

I don't want to sound like I'm just bashing away, hence the remark that I didn't wish to appear to say "I told you so" based on the hindsight of reading of the Mt Gox bankruptcy.