The 'Un-Official' Campagnolo Ekar thread

[thirdgenbird]

Originally Posted by bfd

But with 11 speed, everything is, or should I say was, compatible. I'm an old Campy guy and have several Campy wheels. When I put together a bike with etap drivetrain, I was able to use my Campy wheels with a Campy 11 speed cassette. It works perfectly!

Similarly, I could use a Shimano 11 wheel/cassette with my bikes that have Campy drivetrain. Why do that? Well, up until recently, if you needed lower gearing like say 11-34 or larger, you couldn't use a Campy drivetrain because there wasn't a Campy cassette with that gearing. But, you could throw on a Shimano 11 wheel/cassette and away you go! It works and the fact that the parts from the Big 3 are interchangeable is a good thing!

Of course, now that 2 of the 3 have gone to 12 speed, and Campy is at 13, it is unclear whether 12 or 13 speed will be compatible across the big 3.

Good Luck!

There are a number of reports of people mixing sram road 12 cassettes and chains with Campagnolo 12 chains and cassettes. It’s likely shimano will be the same. The more cogs you add in the same space, the less variability there is for spacing differences.

[Hellgate]

Originally Posted by shinomaster

I had the original Centaur 10 escape on my cross bike for one season and it was fantastic and super fast. The only reason I switched it out was to get the new hood shape. It's easy to over shift with ultrashift in a race and get stuck in too hard of a gear,

I have Chorus 10 on my CX bike. I raced it for three seasons and it never missed a beat. And it still works great today, 15 years later.

[s4life]

Originally Posted by thirdgenbird

There are a number of reports of people mixing sram road 12 cassettes and chains with Campagnolo 12 chains and cassettes. It’s likely shimano will be the same. The more cogs you add in the same space, the less variability there is for spacing differences.

Yup, there’s actually less of a difference in cog spacing in 12 vs 11 Speed, It should work as well or better than 11. I will be testing sram 12 speed cassette with campagnolo 12 drive train soon enough

[yinzerniner]

Originally Posted by thirdgenbird

There are a number of reports of people mixing sram road 12 cassettes and chains with Campagnolo 12 chains and cassettes. It’s likely shimano will be the same. The more cogs you add in the same space, the less variability there is for spacing differences.

User Dave S on here has done some extensive mixing and matching with sram and campy 12 sp stuff and has not found any degradation in shifting quality. Whether that continues over longer usage and more wear remains to be seen.

Also have seen plenty of mixing and matching of sram eagle and shimano 12 spd items.

Now just waiting on the next gen dura ace to see how compatibility works out between the big three.

[spinarelli]

As the space between rear cogs gets smaller and smaller the compatibility goes up maybe because they are running out of space. I mean there’s only so many cogs and gaps you can fit between the dropouts. As they squeeze more gears the margin of error gets reduced?
10sp didn’t work but I’ve been using 11s ultegra cassette with Campagnolo SR derailleur and shifters with no noticeable drop in shifting quality.

Originally Posted by yinzerniner

User Dave S on here has done some extensive mixing and matching with sram and campy 12 sp stuff and has not found any degradation in shifting quality. Whether that continues over longer usage and more wear remains to be seen.

Also have seen plenty of mixing and matching of sram eagle and shimano 12 spd items.

Now just waiting on the next gen dura ace to see how compatibility works out between the big three.

[rain dogs]

The only mixing and matching I'm interested in is getting that Ekar rear derailleur to work with my 11v Campagnolo Ergos.

My gravel bike is set up 2x, and I'm not interested going to 1x. So, Ekar isn't for me yet. But I do want the clutch derailleur (like I've got) and want to eliminate my jtek. So, hopefully, Campagnolo hasn't changed the basic geometry of the Ekar derailleur and the shift ratio from 1.5 that they've used on all the new derailleurs.

[oldpotatoe]

Originally Posted by charliedid

Nothing works perfectly, but is that based on your own personal experience riding it or it that quote attributed to someone else?

They seem to have built this group around it's own eco-system without any or much cross compatibility> New BB/crank interface, new Freehub body. New chain. 1 x only (for now maybe?) Chain tool works or doesn't work?

One of the things about SRAM and Shimano is the interchangeability of components and choice of 2x with SHIMANO so you can make it your own set up. With this not so much?

It does seem to be getting good initial reviews and maybe the target market ( whoever that is) doesn't care that they have to go to Campagnolo for everything (at least for now) and it is what it is. It just seems a bit limiting to someone like me or many others who want to build their bike the way they want to.

And 1x13 are we at all worried about component wear and chain line issues? I think I am at least a little but maybe I am wrong. J. Huang brings up the "works better under load" but isn't that just how Campagnolo stuff works best anyway? One of the reasons I like Shimano stuff is the light action and ability to shift that stuff at rather slow speeds very effectively.

Either way it's good to see them playing in the gravel/adventure arena as it is def. a driver of enthusiast bike sales these days.

-Initial reports from various places that have tested it.

-It's a Chorus, UT crank with new cups. New FHB..copy to shimano and sram..how many has sram had? How about putting a 11s cogset on any shimano 10s FHB. shimano micro spline-cross compatible? Oh and gee..new Campag FHB backwards compatible..another copy to sram and shimano. Try putting a 11s FHB on ANY shimano 10s rear hub..no can do charlie.

-The company that strives to be 'compatible' is sram because there bottom line depends on it. Except, except for cogsets/chains, they aren't. Well, whatdoyaknow..Campag is compatible with 11s and 12s sram.

-Same for sram and shimano, 11s and 12s..except cogsets and chain..mentioned above..never could mix ders, shifters, disc calipers...

-was there lots of hand wringing when sram made a 10t cog? Don't remember much, but again..slamming sram is verboten for some reason.

I see above some have answered your 'issues' as well. When shimano comes out with 12s road(Finally, they are so LATE!!), I'll expect a complete review, discussion and appropriate criticisms....same for anything new from sram..



https://forums.thepaceline.net/showthread.php?t=258826

[Elefantino]

FWIW we already have a customer who wants the S-Works version.

[yinzerniner]

Originally Posted by rain dogs

The only mixing and matching I'm interested in is getting that Ekar rear derailleur to work with my 11v Campagnolo Ergos.

My gravel bike is set up 2x, and I'm not interested going to 1x. So, Ekar isn't for me yet. But I do want the clutch derailleur (like I've got) and want to eliminate my jtek. So, hopefully, Campagnolo hasn't changed the basic geometry of the Ekar derailleur and the shift ratio from 1.5 that they've used on all the new derailleurs.

Pretty sure all indications are that the ekar RD won’t work with 2x systems since the design/geometry is similar to other clutches RDs that don’t play well with FDs. You can try but having seen other people attempt it with shimano and sram the shifting is all kinds of messed up

Originally Posted by thirdgenbird

The Ekar derailleur is 1x only by design. The horizontal parallelogram and offset pulley use chain length/tension to control spacing to the cassette. A front derailleur would throw this out of adjustment. Again, this is the same as sram and shimano. They both offer 1x specific derailleurs that use a similar design.

[charliedid]

Thanks Peter

I wasn't trying to be overly critical just asking questions. I'm not bashing anyone so no need to get overly sensitive. I know its church to you but to me it's just a bike parts company. All of them.

Since it keeps coming up there is more to cross compatibility than just speeds and BB etc. I was thinking more about the cool fact that AXS was designed to micx and match mountain and road SRAM stuff so as to be able to build whatever mutant bar shifter combo I might want.

PS I have a 11-34 Ultegra cassette on a 10spd freehub. CS-HG800

https://cyclingtips.com/2018/03/shim...ssette-review/

Cheers

Ride bikes.

Originally Posted by oldpotatoe

-Initial reports from various places that have tested it.

-It's a Chorus, UT crank with new cups. New FHB..copy to shimano and sram..how many has sram had? How about putting a 11s cogset on any shimano 10s FHB. shimano micro spline-cross compatible? Oh and gee..new Campag FHB backwards compatible..another copy to sram and shimano. Try putting a 11s FHB on ANY shimano 10s rear hub..no can do charlie.

-The company that strives to be 'compatible' is sram because there bottom line depends on it. Except, except for cogsets/chains, they aren't. Well, whatdoyaknow..Campag is compatible with 11s and 12s sram.

-Same for sram and shimano, 11s and 12s..except cogsets and chain..mentioned above..never could mix ders, shifters, disc calipers...

-was there lots of hand wringing when sram made a 10t cog? Don't remember much, but again..slamming sram is verboten for some reason.

I see above some have answered your 'issues' as well. When shimano comes out with 12s road(Finally, they are so LATE!!), I'll expect a complete review, discussion and appropriate criticisms....same for anything new from sram..



https://forums.thepaceline.net/showthread.php?t=258826

[rain dogs]

Originally Posted by yinzerniner

Pretty sure all indications are that the ekar RD won’t work with 2x systems since the design/geometry is similar to other clutches RDs that don’t play well with FDs. You can try but having seen other people attempt it with shimano and sram the shifting is all kinds of messed up

I have a clutch rear derailleur now (Shimano XT) and it shifts perfectly fine. Sure, there is a bit more resistance, but it never misses an upshift. The thing I hate is having the jtek adaptor.

[yinzerniner]

Originally Posted by rain dogs

I have a clutch rear derailleur now (Shimano XT) and it shifts perfectly fine. Sure, there is a bit more resistance, but it never misses an upshift. The thing I hate is having the jtek adaptor.

Earlier xT and XTR was designed for use with an FD, so that’s why it works. It depends on the RD design, not just the features if the rd

Kind of similar to how sram mtb 11s Rds have different pull ratios so they aren’t compatible.

[thirdgenbird]

Originally Posted by rain dogs

I have a clutch rear derailleur now (Shimano XT) and it shifts perfectly fine. Sure, there is a bit more resistance, but it never misses an upshift. The thing I hate is having the jtek adaptor.

It’s not the clutch that’s the problem. See my post above. It’s the parallelogram and pulley cage geometry. Shimano makes some 2x designs with a clutch but they also have 1x specific designs. Ekar is the latter.

[rain dogs]

Originally Posted by yinzerniner

Earlier xT and XTR was designed for use with an FD, so that’s why it works. It depends on the RD design, not just the features if the rd

Kind of similar to how sram mtb 11s Rds have different pull ratios so they aren’t compatible.

Originally Posted by thirdgenbird

It’s not the clutch that’s the problem. See my post above. It’s the parallelogram and pulley cage geometry. Shimano makes some 2x designs with a clutch but they also have 1x specific designs. Ekar is the latter.

How does the derailleur know if it's on a 1x system or 2x? The derailleur I have is a 2019 XT derailleur with a clutch, so its not older/"earlier". It shifts fine. Now, if you tell me the clutch of Ekar is 4 times as powerful as the clutch I have... fine. But I was responding to the idea that a clutch makes front shifting problematic. It doesn't. My wife's GRX has a clutch, shifts fine. I have an even heavier clutch, shifts fine.

As I understand (and I could be wrong)... the cable pull comes from my shifters, so as long as the shift ratio is the same (1,5) then I could use the Ekar to shift through an 11speed cassette, using 11 speed shifters on a 1x 11 system. But I want 2x 11. The only thing that would mess up the front shifting would be total capacity or the force of the clutch.

I only want it for an 11-36 rear cassette and unless the clutch is insane, I don't see how I couldn't use 2x like I am now. I guess we'll find out when it comes out. Or help me understand the other factor?

EDIT: @Thirdgenbird.... sorry, I didn't see your reponse on the previous page to another post about a similar idea, and the problem being the using of chain length/tension. Ok, didn't know Ekar was designed this way. Are we sure about that? And we're sure that doesn't work with a front derailleur? Does the derailleur not have a "b-screw+?" And, so when shifting, what happens? The pulley wheel slams into the cassette?

[thirdgenbird]

There are two designs. It’s not early vs late. It’s a manner of what type. Shimano makes both type of derailleurs for current groups. You can use a 2x RD in 1x but not a 1x in a 2x setup. At least not without issue.

Design 1 uses a slat parallelogram. This design uses the parallelogram geometry to follow the cassette profile. When you shift from the small ring to the large ring, the cage rotates and it doesn’t dramatically change the distance from the cassette.

Design 2 uses a near horizontal parallelogram with a pulley cage with a very offset upper pulley. This design uses chain length/tension to control distance to the cassette. You can do this on 1x because the only thing that changes the chain length is rear cog size. If you were to use this design with a front derailleur, you would have two variables. Your front derailleur would be changing your effective b-tension. You would either be too far away in the big ring or crashing onto the cassette in the little ring.

You can see this in action if you watch a video of ekar or similar designed derailleurs shifting.

Edit: retroactively adding this nifty drawing that shows what I am trying to explain. Credit to yinzerniner for finding it.

Campagnolo 2x groups are similar to the bottom. Ekar is similar to the top.