Best Titanium Road Bike

[joosttx]

Originally Posted by Dino Suegiù

I am not so sure of the "Baum paint costs more" justification for their very high prices. Many other builders can also provide very expensive, complicated finishes, and yet do not approach Baum costs. Plus, once the stencils are developed....

It looks like (if I have the correct costs) that for these framesets, +/- in US $:
Baum Corretto titanium with Enve 2.0; with top “Limited” paint upgrade: $8,000.
Mosaic RT-1 titanium with Enve 2.0; with top "special two-tone" paint upgrade: $6,500.
Recent Pegoretti Responsorium with Falz 2.0; with top "Ciavete" paint upgrade: $5,500.
Firefly Road titanium with Enve 2.0; with top "splatter ano" finish (+$750) upgrade: $5,150.

That is a cost up-charge of $1,500 to $2,850 for the Baum over three other also superb framesets.

Even allowing for somewhat more tubing manipulation on a Baum I still cannot see the value (to the buyer) of the $1,500 to $3,000 up-charge. I would much rather spend that money on some really great wheels plus some nice extras.

Last time I check Baum doesn’t sell value. Never heard anyone ever say “Baum makes a bike of good value”. Best and value are different (at least sometimes)

[Clean39T]

Originally Posted by joosttx

Last time I check Baum doesn’t sell value. Never heard anyone ever say “Baum makes a bike of good value”. Best and value are different (at least sometimes)

Agreed.

Value is extremely subjective.

If someone values exclusivity and unique production, Baum would be highly valued by them.

If they want standard sizing and high resale, Moots is a great value for them.

Ad nauseum...

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[Heisenberg]

Originally Posted by Clean39T

Value is extremely subjective.

If someone values exclusivity and unique production, Baum would be highly valued by them.

If they want standard sizing and high resale, Moots is a great value for them.

Ad nauseum...

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And most people willing to drop over $6000 on a new frameset aren't chasing value as priority 1.

[AngryScientist]

exactly.

i dont care who you are, or how much money you have, buying a 10K dollar pedal bicycle is not a "rational" purchase.

it's the same for any high end luxury good. watches, cars, country club memberships, whatever. at this level you are not breaking out your excel spreadsheet and scrutinizing value as defined by $/unit whatever...

[joosttx]

Originally Posted by Heisenberg

And most people willing to drop over $6000 on a new frameset aren't chasing value as priority 1.

I think Jonathan Ward’s Icon brand of cars and trucks fit well into this discussion. No one will say an FJ44 is a good value. But if you want something unique and offthe charts quality there you go. There are lots of videos of him discussing his transition from restoring Land Cruiser to his Icon Company. Alex Singer’s company Singer is another example of striving for the best and forget value.

[Dino Suegiù]

Of course.

None of the four framesets listed above could logically be classified as rational, "value" propositions, clearly. I was referring to value simply as the objective and actual cost increase over the other three framesets, not as any completely subjective and variable personal value. In any case that discussion is really neither here nor there.

The point is that the high Baum cost was also justified as being a factor of the complex graphics, and yet equally (perhaps even more) complex graphics come on similar, extremely high-quality framesets that cost $1500-$3000 less. That is a lot of additional cost, regardless of the Baum rationale.

If people want to buy a Baum, more power to them. But to claim that the very substantial cost difference is due to the complex graphics is really a stretch.

So, forget "value" then, throw that concept out.
Is a Baum simply the "best titanium road bike", then?
No, it is not that, either.
As per the welds, then: to each their own.

[m4rk540]

Aren't there a few guys on Paceline who have almost compulsively acquired every prominent Ti brand in the world? I wonder if after riding their Passoni back to back with the Lynskey or the Moots or the Firefly or the Holland, they think, the only difference is in the headbadge. But the Baum has to be nicer.

Of course, when they come to this realization after every ride, the next conclusion must be: who cares. Nice bikes are nice bikes.

I think I can tell the difference between a Hi Mod Evo and an Sl6 S Works Tarmac but most of my rides average 20mph plus

[veloduffer]

Originally Posted by m4rk540

Aren't there a few guys on Paceline who have almost compulsively acquired every prominent Ti brand in the world? I wonder if after riding their Passoni back to back with the Lynskey or the Moots or the Firefly or the Holland, they think, the only difference is in the headbadge. But the Baum has to be nicer.

I’ve ridden so many of the top ti bikes. It really depends how well the builder builds to your style-?an interpretation. My taste in ride maybe different than yours - not about being ‘better’ in terms of quality.

The choice of tubing and geometry will affect ‘the quality” of the ride — to you. There may be some difference the beauty of the welds but doesn’t necessarily make it the best bike for you.





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[Toddykins]

Originally Posted by joosttx

Last time I check Baum doesn’t sell value. Never heard anyone ever say “Baum makes a bike of good value”. Best and value are different (at least sometimes)

I think people were misunderstanding my question - My stable consists of Firefly and Crumpton among others, I am hardly value shopping.

I am not arguing that any given producer is 'better' than Baum. Obviously there is no such thing as the 'best' bike, which is entirely subjective, particularly when talking about one-off custom titanium bikes.

Leaving aside whether it is justified, its clear that Baum's pricing is out of line with many other producers in the same tier. I was just wondering if there was something tangible that led to this price difference.

Thanks Heiseinberg for the response on this. Since Firefly (for example) does everything you listed for Baum, its hard for me to reach the conclusion that the price difference is a function of labor or tube manipulation.

[PETER REID]

I'm seeing all of the usual suspects being listed here. I have a Ti Cycles that I bought from somebody else that I really like. I also have a Russian made RVT that's interesting. I periodically sell Carver Ti frames for people that want custom and don't want to spend $5000 on a frames. I like Ti Frames to travel with because TSA can't scratch them and they are near to impossible to break. Yet my daily rider when I'm home is a Landshark built 20 years ago....

[froze]

Originally Posted by Toddykins

I think people were misunderstanding my question - My stable consists of Firefly and Crumpton among others, I am hardly value shopping.

I am not arguing that any given producer is 'better' than Baum. Obviously there is no such thing as the 'best' bike, which is entirely subjective, particularly when talking about one-off custom titanium bikes.

Leaving aside whether it is justified, its clear that Baum's pricing is out of line with many other producers in the same tier. I was just wondering if there was something tangible that led to this price difference.

Thanks Heiseinberg for the response on this. Since Firefly (for example) does everything you listed for Baum, its hard for me to reach the conclusion that the price difference is a function of labor or tube manipulation.

Of course Baum's pricing is out of line but so are a slew of other custom bike makers. There isn't anything tangible, it's perceived value, it's what a person sees when looking at that bike that makes them think it's important for them to have that bike, and it mostly boils down to aesthetics, and they are very beautiful looking bikes with paint jobs that are second to none except maybe some custom painted steel bikes by Joe Bell. I don't believe you'll gain or lose anything tangible between TI manufactures, while might feel better riding but there are all sorts of things that go into feeling that has nothing to do with the manufacture, geometry, thickness of the tube, tube shape, which tube type and where is it used, butted or not, wheels, saddle, tires, etc all play into how one bike will feel over another.

I bought my Lynskey sight unseen which means I never test rode it, but I was confident since I fit into off the shelf sized bikes with no problem that I would have no issues with mail order TI bike; and as it turned out it's the best riding bike I've owned.

I still believe that Lynskey is the head of the crowd when it comes to manufacturing TI frames. It was Lynskey who the government contracted with to build specialized and classified titanium projects for both the military and aerospace. Lynskey went on from there to start up Litespeed which was touted as being the world leader in TI frame technology and developed technology that other builders now use. Does a Lynskey fail? of course so does other brands, but their failure rate is real low at 50 fails out of 8000 frames which is about one half of one percent, and this was back in the earlier days of Litespeed, since then the failure rates have reduced further. Lynskey does make custom TI bikes for the more discerning buying, but they won't paint unless they have someone now who does for an extra charge that I don't know about, or I guess you could send the bike to Joe Bell and let him do a paint job on it. Though paint does look nicer, paint does scratch and fades over time so there is a higher degree of maintenance with anything painted.

[froze]

Originally Posted by PETER REID

I'm seeing all of the usual suspects being listed here. I have a Ti Cycles that I bought from somebody else that I really like. I also have a Russian made RVT that's interesting. I periodically sell Carver Ti frames for people that want custom and don't want to spend $5000 on a frames. I like Ti Frames to travel with because TSA can't scratch them and they are near to impossible to break. Yet my daily rider when I'm home is a Landshark built 20 years ago....

See that's what it boils down to Peter, it's what you like to ride is what matters. Sheldon Brown was a bike guru, owned his own shop, had lots of bike and could choose anything he wanted to ride, but he prefer to ride his 1918 or so gas pipe bike, thought it was the most comfortable bike he ever rode...GAS PIPE! But that's what he liked. (I can't recall the exact year or brand bike that he commuted to work on, I can't find it with a search anymore).

[PaMtbRider]

I think what hurts Lynskey's perceived value is there marketing and distribution. You are not going to see new Moots, Seven, IF... at performance or Ebay at 50% off. Even through their own website the pricing is always an inflated number that is than offered at some high discount. This does not affect the ability of Lynskey to make a custom frame equal to any other, it just presents them as a discount brand.

[Hilltopperny]

Originally Posted by PaMtbRider

I think what hurts Lynskey's perceived value is there marketing and distribution. You are not going to see new Moots, Seven, IF... at performance or Ebay at 50% off. Even through their own website the pricing is always an inflated number that is than offered at some high discount. This does not affect the ability of Lynskey to make a custom frame equal to any other, it just presents them as a discount brand.

I agree that Lynskey is perceived as a discount brand, but I think it boils down to economies of scale. They must do high volume production runs and they end up blowing out the overstock at the end of the season at what must be cost or possibly lower at times.

I bought a few of them last season and built them up. I rode a few hundred miles on three of them and felt that they were a high quality frameset. The finish wasn't as nice as my No22s and I like the ride of my drifter and great divide better, but the Lynskeys were a fantastic value at below a grand for a brand spanking new frame and still ride excellent.


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[Dino Suegiù]

Originally Posted by Toddykins

I think people were misunderstanding my question - My stable consists of Firefly and Crumpton among others, I am hardly value shopping.

I don't think anyone really misunderstood your question, except for those few who may have intentionally done so.