OT: Electric Vehicles--anyone driving them or seriously looked at them?

[HenryA]

https://www.wsj.com/articles/toyota-...vs-11671372223

“People involved in the auto industry are largely a silent majority,” Mr. Toyoda said to reporters during a visit to Thailand. “That silent majority is wondering whether EVs are really OK to have as a single option. But they think it’s the trend so they can’t speak out loudly.”

While major rivals, including General Motors Co. and Honda Motor Co., have set dates for when their lineups will be all-EV, Toyota has stuck to a strategy of investing in a diverse lineup of vehicles that includes hydrogen-powered cars and hybrids, which combine batteries with gas engines.

The world’s biggest auto maker has said it sees hybrids, a technology it invented with the debut of the Toyota Prius in the 1990s, as an important option when EVs remain expensive and charging infrastructure is still being built out in many parts of the world. It is also developing zero-emission vehicles powered by hydrogen.”

Good to see some common sense applied.

[m_sasso]

Originally Posted by saab2000

Tesla will precondition the battery and cabin when plugged in. This means a toasty cabin and seats and steering wheel when you’re ready to go. The functionality is in the app that is part of Tesla life.

Without being plugged in it may not precondition the battery, just the cabin. I’m honestly not certain.

When plugged in and preconditioning, it is obviously drawing from the power source. The heat pump runs and it’s clearly “on” but there is obviously no engine so this process can happen in a closed garage, which is how it works at my house.

The Tesla is pretty quick to heat the cabin, but a super cold-soaked car will still have to obey the laws of physics to warm up. Also, it’s definitely less efficient at very cold temps and when it has to use its own juice to get the battery to optimal operating temperature.

Many thanks!

[dgauthier]

Originally Posted by HenryA

https://www.wsj.com/articles/toyota-...vs-11671372223

“People involved in the auto industry are largely a silent majority,” Mr. Toyoda said to reporters during a visit to Thailand. “That silent majority is wondering whether EVs are really OK to have as a single option. But they think it’s the trend so they can’t speak out loudly.”

While major rivals, including General Motors Co. and Honda Motor Co., have set dates for when their lineups will be all-EV, Toyota has stuck to a strategy of investing in a diverse lineup of vehicles that includes hydrogen-powered cars and hybrids, which combine batteries with gas engines.

The world’s biggest auto maker has said it sees hybrids, a technology it invented with the debut of the Toyota Prius in the 1990s, as an important option when EVs remain expensive and charging infrastructure is still being built out in many parts of the world. It is also developing zero-emission vehicles powered by hydrogen.”

Good to see some common sense applied.

Since this thread was started just over three years ago, I will go on the record with this:

There are those who think Toyota screwed up royally with their hydrogen strategy, and missed the EV revolution. Toyota has no real plan for producing EV's (their BZ4X is an embarrassment), and they will face serious headwinds trying to compete while carrying their enormous debt. While the Japanese government will never let Toyota go bankrupt, Toyota will continue as a much smaller shadow of their former selves.*

Okay, take a look at this three years from now, and see if the prognosticators are right!

*In other words, the head of Toyota sounds a lot like this guy:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eywi0h_Y5_U

[MikeD]

Originally Posted by HenryA

https://www.wsj.com/articles/toyota-...vs-11671372223

“People involved in the auto industry are largely a silent majority,” Mr. Toyoda said to reporters during a visit to Thailand. “That silent majority is wondering whether EVs are really OK to have as a single option. But they think it’s the trend so they can’t speak out loudly.”

While major rivals, including General Motors Co. and Honda Motor Co., have set dates for when their lineups will be all-EV, Toyota has stuck to a strategy of investing in a diverse lineup of vehicles that includes hydrogen-powered cars and hybrids, which combine batteries with gas engines.

The world’s biggest auto maker has said it sees hybrids, a technology it invented with the debut of the Toyota Prius in the 1990s, as an important option when EVs remain expensive and charging infrastructure is still being built out in many parts of the world. It is also developing zero-emission vehicles powered by hydrogen.”

Good to see some common sense applied.

I think Toyota has the right approach. Inadequate power grid capacity, lack of charging infrastructure, not being able to charge at home for most people living in high density housing. Full EVs don't make sense for most people.

[BdaGhisallo]

If you're going to promote EV's amidst a green transition, it would help if you could be sure you can power them:

https://www.welt.de/wirtschaft/artic...alflow_twitter

Klaus Müller, the president of the German Federal Network Agency [which regulates gas and electricity], has warned that the growing number of private electric car charging stations and electric-powered heat pumps could overload the power grid in Germany. “If very large numbers of new heat pumps and charging stations continue to be installed, then we’ll have to worry about overload problems and local power failures … if we do not act” …

According to the report, the … regulatory authority considers local low-voltage grids to be particularly susceptible to disruptions. The Agency has therefore published a strategy paper planning to ration the power consumption of heat pumps and electric car charging stations in times of high network utilisation. … Grid operators would then be forced to throttle the power supply to these systems … The plans for electricity rationing are slated to come into effect on 1 January 2024 …

Even in the event of power rationing, private charging stations would be able to draw enough power to charge an electric vehicle battery within three hours for a range of 50 kilometres, he said. Additionally … “nearly trouble-free continued operation” should still be possible for a large number of heat pumps.

-------------------

I wonder if German drivers are pleased to hear that their driving might be limited to a 50-kilometre radius at any moment without notice, and also that their heaters will probably mostly work most of the time.

[username]

The massive spread of automobiles beginning in the first decades of the twentieth century completely overwhelmed American roads. Municipalities, states, and most of all the federal government responded by upgrading roads throughout the United States in order to accommodate cars relatively safely. If EVs continue to grow popular enough, the same will very likely happen with the electric grid.

Put another way, telling innovators not innovate—or, more absurdly, consumers not to consume more innovative products—because of disinvestment in public goods like infrastructure seems unlikely to succeed and almost certainly is bad for the nation's economic prospects over the long term.

[bigbill]

Originally Posted by username

The massive spread of automobiles beginning in the first decades of the twentieth century completely overwhelmed American roads. Municipalities, states, and most of all the federal government responded by upgrading roads throughout the United States in order to accommodate cars relatively safely. If EVs continue to grow popular enough, the same will very likely happen with the electric grid.

Put another way, telling innovators not innovate—or, more absurdly, consumers not to consume more innovative products—because of disinvestment in public goods like infrastructure seems unlikely to succeed and almost certainly is bad for the nation's economic prospects over the long term.

Infrastructure for EV would be built and operated by the private sector. The government could give tax benefits to corporations to encourage expansion. This is different than roadbeds and asphalt put down by private companies then maintained using tax dollars.

Until the government gets together with private industry and develops an expansion plan, any legislation or government action is pointless.

[David Kirk]

Originally Posted by username

The massive spread of automobiles beginning in the first decades of the twentieth century completely overwhelmed American roads. Municipalities, states, and most of all the federal government responded by upgrading roads throughout the United States in order to accommodate cars relatively safely. If EVs continue to grow popular enough, the same will very likely happen with the electric grid.

Put another way, telling innovators not innovate—or, more absurdly, consumers not to consume more innovative products—because of disinvestment in public goods like infrastructure seems unlikely to succeed and almost certainly is bad for the nation's economic prospects over the long term.

I couldn't agree more.

Way back in the early days of the electrical grid about all anyone did with it was power a few light bulbs and the skinny, minimalist grid did just fine.

And then, in the 1930's, the home refrigerator became a thing. Before the fridge people used an icebox and bought most foods as they needed them, day to day. But then the home fridge became an affordable thing. Those producing electricity saw this as awesome as their volume went way up...but the downside was that the power companies couldn't get power to those that wanted to buy it. The the grid was updated and changed to meet the growing demand. The grid changed in response to need.

The moral of the story is that the grid changes and adapts and to say we shouldn't buy electric cars is not much different than saying we shouldn't ditch the icebox and buy a fridge because the grid won't like all those refrigerators running at the same time. I have complete faith that those that stand to make huge money supplying electricity to us all will find a way to get us the thing we want to buy. I doubt that ever fails.

--------------------------------

I was just outside helping a neighbor shovel his driveway. He's a Harley guy so I asked him what he thought of the new electric bikes that Harley is making. He's ridden one and loved it. So quick and smooth. He ask about our new electric car and I told him I loved it. Then he said that "if we all bought an EV tomorrow the grid couldn't supply the demand...so EV's aren't viable." He's not wrong. If we did a full-on fleet change from ICE to EV tomorrow the grid wouldn't be able to handle it. But no one is suggesting that that is going to happen...hell even if everyone wanted one there aren't enough EV's yet meet that fictional demand.

So the ICE car will slowly fade out over time and the EV will slowly fade in over time. The grid will be updated and adapt. The production of gas will drop at some point as demand falls and there will be fewer gas stations. This will cause the cost of gas to go up which in turn will push more people to drive EV's. It will all work out over time as it's driven by profit and money talks.

No doubt there will be occasional bumps in the road during this slow transition...but they won't be big enough, or long enough lasting, to make us throw up our hands and say "never mind, I guess ICE cars were better after all so we should stop making EV's and stop innovating."

It's a fun and interesting ride and we can watch it go by or we can get on and enjoy the ride and the benefits of cleaner air, better health, cleaner water, quieter streets....etc. Like the incandescent light bulb going away some will loudly complain...but then the benefits will become more obvious and everyone will switch to LED's and life will improve.

dave

[username]

Originally Posted by bigbill

Infrastructure for EV would be built and operated by the private sector. The government could give tax benefits to corporations to encourage expansion. This is different than roadbeds and asphalt put down by private companies then maintained using tax dollars.

Until the government gets together with private industry and develops an expansion plan, any legislation or government action is pointless.

The grid is public in many parts of the nation and private in many others. The government can and does work with private industry—tax breaks, policies that favor this or that company, and straight-up investment—all the time. By the way, the same was true of roads: many were constructed by private corporations, though the Interstate Highway System dwarfed all other examples and was public. I would say that there's no reason to be certain that the same can't happen with the grid, though I understand that it seems unlikely in this political moment.

[saab2000]

I am completely unafraid of the electrical grid to be able to handle this except in the most extreme or mismanaged places. Virtually everyone in the US has air conditioning and refrigerators, among other electrical draws. I admit to not knowing what total draw on the system an EV is, but since it’s a “smart” appliance (and that’s what it really is - an appliance) it can be charged at home at low-demand times.

Very few of the naysayers seem to be questioning the constant construction of new warehouses and warehouse (all electrically lit and operated) stores to sell more stuff, half of which is electrical. Every time I charge at home I’m not operating an electric gas pump. The point is that it’s all very complex and we will adapt. I doubt full service gas stations and convenience stores were a thing when the first mass-produced automobiles started hitting the roads.

Chargers will become more ubiquitous and I am certain new-build houses will be built wired with chargers in mind. Mine was a tedious and not inexpensive modification but soon they’ll be like an electric dryer or electric stove in their wiring to a garage or carport.

They’ll soon be as commonplace as indoor plumbing…. Imagine that.

[David Kirk]

Originally Posted by saab2000

I am completely unafraid of the electrical grid to be able to handle this except in the most extreme or mismanaged places. Virtually everyone in the US has air conditioning and refrigerators, among other electrical draws. I admit to not knowing what total draw on the system an EV is, but since it’s a “smart” appliance (and that’s what it really is - an appliance) it can be charged at home at low-demand times.

Very few of the naysayers seem to be questioning the constant construction of new warehouses and warehouse (all electrically lit and operated) stores to sell more stuff, half of which is electrical. Every time I charge at home I’m not operating an electric gas pump. The point is that it’s all very complex and we will adapt. I doubt full service gas stations and convenience stores were a thing when the first mass-produced automobiles started hitting the roads.

Chargers will become more ubiquitous and I am certain new-build houses will be built wired with chargers in mind. Mine was a tedious and not inexpensive modification but soon they’ll be like an electric dryer or electric stove in their wiring to a garage or carport.

They’ll soon be as commonplace as indoor plumbing…. Imagine that.

Most new construction here in our area is being wired with a high voltage circuit into the garage so that an owner can buy a charger and plug it in and be good to go.

dave

[corkycalvin]

I’m in California and they will fade out gas combustion engines. If we’re currently having brown outs in the summer, how the heck are we going to support more EV’s?

They can boost the electric infrastructure but it will take years. I would imagine fossil fuels, clean natural gas and coal will power the electric grid. So much for going green.

[David Kirk]

Originally Posted by corkycalvin

I’m in California and they will fade out gas combustion engines. If we’re currently having brown outs in the summer, how the heck are we going to support more EV’s?

They can boost the electric infrastructure but it will take years. I would imagine fossil fuels, clean natural gas and coal will power the electric grid. So much for going green.

I hear you. Many have the impression that an EV that uses power from a coal burning plant is just as dirty as an ICE car. Fortunately for us it's not...not even close.

My wife is a science writer for Yale Climate Connection and NASA and her work centers on this issue. She did a huge amount of work for NASA using all the current statistics and it turns out that an EV pollutes a minimum of 30% less than the ICE car equivalent even when the electrical power comes from coal.

The good news is that coal's days are numbered because it's too expensive at this point and the power plants can't make money burning coal. Surprisingly if you take renewables (hydro, solar, wind) and add them up that they generate more power in the USA at this point than all the coal burning plants do. This means that nearly 1/2 the grid is currently being powered by renewables...which in turn means that our EV's pollute even less when compared to an ICE car.

The other good news is that no new coal plants are being built at this point because it's not economical (coal has not been "legislated out of existence" as some like to falsely report). Power companies make more money with hydro, wind and solar so they are closing to shut down coal plants and investing in clean technologies. The building of wind and solar is where the growth and money is and it also happens to give us clean power that will in the not-so-distant future power our cars without any direct or indirect emissions.

So it's not a wash...it's a substantial gain even now and every day it gets better. My wife's work on this was recently featured in Motortrend magazine. You can find it there. Her name is Karin Kirk and you can see her work there, at NASA and Yale.

dave

[weisan]

Got behind the wheels of a Tesla model Y yesterday, first time driving an electric car. just a 30-min test drive.

Crazy fast acceleration.

[MikeD]

Originally Posted by David Kirk

I hear you. Many have the impression that an EV that uses power from a coal burning plant is just as dirty as an ICE car. Fortunately for us it's not...not even close.

My wife is a science writer for Yale Climate Connection and NASA and her work centers on this issue. She did a huge amount of work for NASA using all the current statistics and it turns out that an EV pollutes a minimum of 30% less than the ICE car equivalent even when the electrical power comes from coal.

The good news is that coal's days are numbered because it's too expensive at this point and the power plants can't make money burning coal. Surprisingly if you take renewables (hydro, solar, wind) and add them up that they generate more power in the USA at this point than all the coal burning plants do. This means that nearly 1/2 the grid is currently being powered by renewables...which in turn means that our EV's pollute even less when compared to an ICE car.

The other good news is that no new coal plants are being built at this point because it's not economical (coal has not been "legislated out of existence" as some like to falsely report). Power companies make more money with hydro, wind and solar so they are closing to shut down coal plants and investing in clean technologies. The building of wind and solar is where the growth and money is and it also happens to give us clean power that will in the not-so-distant future power our cars without any direct or indirect emissions.

So it's not a wash...it's a substantial gain even now and every day it gets better. My wife's work on this was recently featured in Motortrend magazine. You can find it there. Her name is Karin Kirk and you can see her work there, at NASA and Yale.

dave

Worldwide, coal's days aren't numbered. Germany built a number of coal fired plants after shutting down their nuclear plants. China and India are building lots of coal fired plants. These countries have decided that energy security and reliability of the power grid trump environmental concerns. Global warming is a global problem. I read where if everyone in the US drove an EV, it would barely move the needle as far as global CO2 emissions are concerned. The transportation sector is only one source of CO2.

Also, most people charge their EVs at night because that's when electricity rates are the cheapest. You might get some wind or hydro energy or nuclear that charges your car, but most is coming from burning fossil fuels US wide. In that regard, a Toyota Prius that gets 50 mpg will probably have a carbon footprint that isn't much worse than a BEV, and costs a lot less.