Vintage Audio part 5 - Speakers

[Ken Robb]

Originally Posted by C40_guy

Speaking of vintage speakers, I have a couple of sets of vintage ADS speakers that aren't being used anymore. I think they're model 520 and 400, if I remember correctly...

If you are within driving distance of Cape Cod (Massachusetts) and are interested, let me know via PM and I can provide details. Would prefer not to deal with Craigslist for these, so happy to work with a forum listener...

I have a pair of 35 year-old ADS two-way speakers in my bedroom and they still sound fine. AFAIK all ADS speakers used butyl rubber surrounds that, unlike foam, don't disintegrate over time.

I think the JBL speakers in the pix are too small to give you much bass.

[Ken Robb]

Originally Posted by C40_guy

Speaking of vintage speakers, I have a couple of sets of vintage ADS speakers that aren't being used anymore. I think they're model 520 and 400, if I remember correctly...

If you are within driving distance of Cape Cod (Massachusetts) and are interested, let me know via PM and I can provide details. Would prefer not to deal with Craigslist for these, so happy to work with a forum listener...

I have a pair of 35 year-old ADS two-way speakers in my bedroom and they still sound fine. AFAIK all ADS speakers used butyl rubber surrounds that, unlike foam, don't disintegrate over time.

I think the JBL speakers in the pix are too small to give you much bass.

[Ed-B]

Originally Posted by Ken Robb

AFAIK all ADS speakers used butyl rubber surrounds that, unlike foam, don't disintegrate over time.

While this is true, there were a small number ADS speakers with drivers that were assembled with a caustic cement which rusted the steel frame where the rubber surrounds were attached. I had a pair of L-520 that needed new drivers.

I'm an ADS fan from way back. I'm sure there are more efficient and accurate speakers, but I do like the ADS sound.

CORRECTION: They were L-570/2 speakers.

[Ken Robb]

Originally Posted by Ed-B

While this is true, there were a small number ADS speakers with drivers that were assembled with a caustic cement which rusted the steel frame where the rubber surrounds were attached. I had a pair of L-520 that needed new drivers.

I'm an ADS fan from way back. I'm sure there are more efficient and accurate speakers, but I do like the ADS sound.

This is news to me. I think ADS used all Braun drivers in their early production and I know they changed at least the tweeters used in 710, 810 and maybe other models because the earlier tweeters could be blown when overdriven. The earlier ones were a little brighter.

[Ed-B]

Originally Posted by Ed-B

While this is true, there were a small number ADS speakers with drivers that were assembled with a caustic cement which rusted the steel frame where the rubber surrounds were attached. I had a pair of L-520 that needed new drivers.

I'm an ADS fan from way back. I'm sure there are more efficient and accurate speakers, but I do like the ADS sound.

Yeah, it was a problem....

[Ken Robb]

Originally Posted by Ed-B

Yeah, it was a problem....

EEK! Do you know when this cement was used? How long after manufacture did the drivers fail?

[Ed-B]

Originally Posted by Ken Robb

EEK! Do you know when this cement was used? How long after manufacture did the drivers fail?

I'm not sure about these specifics, although I don't believe that it was problematic across the whole range of speakers, or for a significant duration of the product cycle. I replaced these drivers with similar drivers from an earlier version of the speaker. These rusted drivers were in L-570/2 speakers. I got earlier L-570 drivers to replace them.

If you're looking at ADS speakers just look for the tell-tale ring of rust around the driver. If it's clean you're good.

BTW, I need to make a correction on my earlier post. It was these 570/2 speakers with drivers that were replaced, not L-520 speakers.

But I'd check them all to be sure.

[Peter P.]

Originally Posted by marsh

... so I need to pick something up.
I have a basic setup - vintage Pioneer receiver and turntable.
Are any of these worth a darn? This is for the garage shop, so I don't want to spend too much. I also want some good clear bass, will I need to get a subwoofer too? The receiver has bass boost, but it always sounded muddled
(maybe it was my old speakers).

JBL

You're on the right track-go for craigslist. It's a garage system so who cares how the cabinets look?

I think the JBL's are right because I was going to suggest a pair of bookshelf speakers and a subwoofer. A subwoofer will give you better bass than using the bass boost button on your receiver, and will give you more placement options with the smaller bookshelf speakers and optimal location for the subwoofer.

If the Pioneer receiver works then keep using it. You're fortunate that you live in a large metropolitan area; you'll have a greater availability of used equipment.

[Jeff N.]

Find a good pair of Sansui SP-3500's. They're all over Ebay.

[lemondvictoire]

Originally Posted by Ed-B

Yeah, it was a problem....

I have a pr of the same ADS drivers that are rusting.. the outer rubber ring next to the surround is separating.. Will be grinding the rust off with a dremel a section at a time and then re-glue with contact cement or E6000 Adhesive . Need dust mask and dust shield.... Should be easier than re surrounding old speakers.. Looks like these drivers are very easy to center the voice coil without coil rubbing... As other speakers sometime need the dust caps to be removed and centered with shims before gluing the surrounds..

[froze]

I'm no audiophile either because I can't afford to be one! but I have good ears, and I have listened to all the Bose speakers back in the day and can honestly say I didn't like any of the ones I listen to. From what I recall the 501's were mushy detail lacking boxy sound which is typical of most Bose speakers.

I eventually settled on JBL L7's, you have to google a review on these. After listening to a bunch of speakers those for my ears (everyone's ears are different) sounded the best for the money of all the 20 or so speakers I listened to. The JBL also didn't use foam inserts so after 20 plus years there is no rot, they also didn't use polypropene for speaker material either so they haven't cracked with age, they are still going very strong and sound great. All the JBL speakers in the L series were good sounding speakers, the smallest one needed a subwoofer but the others did pretty good without one but for modern movies subwoofers are essential. L7 has such a fantastic unamplified sub bass speaker I found a subwoofer to be useless! I have that sub bass speaker driven by a separate amp and the rest driven by another amp, though for years I only use one amp to drive the speakers and it was fine that way as well.

In today's world almost all new speakers are built with the thought that you are going to get a separate subwoofer, so the bass on these modern speakers are not as powerful as they use to be.

[daker13]

Originally Posted by froze

In today's world almost all new speakers are built with the thought that you are going to get a separate subwoofer, so the bass on these modern speakers are not as powerful as they use to be.

??

[froze]

Originally Posted by daker13

??

I don't understand your ?? marks, think a bit. Back before subwoofers became all the rage, and those that were around were weak, yet movies had some deep sub base responses going on, they had floor standing speakers with either a single large base speaker like my JBL L7's, or they used multiple semi large bass speakers like the Infinity Kappa 9's that had two (in attempt to get the same volume of air to move as a single large one) had (I auditioned these speakers too but found the JBL L7 to be more to my taste in other areas of sound).

The L7 has a 12 inch sub base speaker that can reach down to 30 hz, the best subwoofers can go to 20 hz, however bass guitars and explosions hover at around the 30 hz range. The Kappa 9 supposedly got down to 29 hz which is just a tad better than mine. Subwoofers didn't really start making headway in the average consumer market till about the mid 90's, prior to that they were audiophile equipment only. Most of those early average consumer units were not as powerful as the ones today, and they would go down to about 40 hz with the more expensive ones getting down to 30. This is why when I took home a subwoofer to try out on a movie I couldn't tell if the darn thing was even on, I would turn it off and on and the L7's were keeping up with the low bass just fine, only when I disconnected the L7's wires from the large bass speaker could I tell that the sub was operating, so I took the sub back to the store.

Now going back to my statement you questioned, in today's average consumer market speakers are designed with the thought that you will at some time buy a subwoofer, so they don't build speakers that can get down to 30 or so hz. The better average consumer speakers today will go only as low as 35 hz with most hovering around the 40 hz range. Note I am only discussing average consumer speakers, I'm not going to entertain a $10,000 audiophile speaker for example in this discussion. Even modern subwoofers still only get into the 35 hz range with some dipping down into the upper 20's, and a few into the lower 20's...again for the average consumer market. Todays powered subwoofers are a bit better than the ones that were around when I tested that one subwoofer I mentioned, that one was a DCM, it looks like on the internet to be the KX model and the specs on that one was 30 hz which matched my JBL which explains why I couldn't hear any difference with it on or off.

[djg]

Originally Posted by froze

...

Now going back to my statement you questioned, in today's average consumer market speakers are designed with the thought that you will at some time buy a subwoofer, so they don't build speakers that can get down to 30 or so hz. The better average consumer speakers today will go only as low as 35 hz with most hovering around the 40 hz range. Note I am only discussing average consumer speakers, I'm not going to entertain a $10,000 audiophile speaker for example in this discussion. Even modern subwoofers still only get into the 35 hz range with some dipping down into the upper 20's, and a few into the lower 20's...again for the average consumer market. Todays powered subwoofers are a bit better than the ones that were around when I tested that one subwoofer I mentioned, that one was a DCM, it looks like on the internet to be the KX model and the specs on that one was 30 hz which matched my JBL which explains why I couldn't hear any difference with it on or off.

I don't want to dissuade anybody from a decent sub, if they want one, but there are speakers with credible low end that don't cost 10k per pair. You can read Robert Reina's description of listening to a recording of himself on a pipe organ through a much more modestly priced pair of Wharfedale's here: https://www.stereophile.com/content/...07-loudspeaker. I think that these went up to 1399 per pair before being replaced in the line, but you can find them on closeout for 699 (and either price is a small fraction of 10k). I'm not saying that's all the low end anybody wants, or everybody's favorite loudspeaker at the price point; and there's the rest of the system, etc. I don't even think it's the most low end you can find under 2k per pair. I don't know if these would meet your requirements -- I don't think of them as rattle-the-foundations speakers and don't know what they'd do with explosions, etc., if connected to the TV (which they are not) for an action movie. It's just an example of what the market offers providing what seems to me a credible full range speaker for music (credible and musical) -- an example with which I'm familiar, having bought a pair of these for my living room system last year.

[froze]

Originally Posted by djg

I don't want to dissuade anybody from a decent sub, if they want one, but there are speakers with credible low end that don't cost 10k per pair. You can read Robert Reina's description of listening to a recording of himself on a pipe organ through a much more modestly priced pair of Wharfedale's here: https://www.stereophile.com/content/...07-loudspeaker. I think that these went up to 1399 per pair before being replaced in the line, but you can find them on closeout for 699 (and either price is a small fraction of 10k). I'm not saying that's all the low end anybody wants, or everybody's favorite loudspeaker at the price point; and there's the rest of the system, etc. I don't even think it's the most low end you can find under 2k per pair. I don't know if these would meet your requirements -- I don't think of them as rattle-the-foundations speakers and don't know what they'd do with explosions, etc., if connected to the TV (which they are not) for an action movie. It's just an example of what the market offers providing what seems to me a credible full range speaker for music (credible and musical) -- an example with which I'm familiar, having bought a pair of these for my living room system last year.

Those Wharfs are pretty good speaker for money like you said, and they do go down to 30 according to the specs. However there is something that concerns me about those speakers, maybe you can answer this. The JBL sub bass speaker is a 12 inch speaker (the others in the JBL is a 8" mid bass, 5" mid, and a 1" ti high); the question I see when comparing a 12 inch sub bass vs 2 6 1/2" woofers, and the one woofer is for some reason different in it's design vs the other in the Wharf. Granted the two woofers combined will equal 13 inches, however in the engineering dept they all say that typically one larger speaker will have far more of an impact than two smaller ones. https://forum.polkaudio.com/discussi...or-2-6-woofers The larger speakers might suffer from distortion as mentioned in the above site but that depends on how it's made; I can't recall all the details any more on my 12 inch woofer, but I think I remember hearing from the HK JBL marketing rep that the speaker was made of a paper cement composition that stiffen the woofer so there is no distortion (I couldn't find anything on the internet on what those JBL speakers were made of). It use to be that you could find lower end speakers with 12 to 14 inch woofers, those did indeed suffer distortion, but they were also nothing but paper with nothing else added to stiffen up the cone.

I have no idea if my specs for the JBL's are spot on, I do know from reading on the internet about them over the years the jest is that they are, but I don't think the Wharfs are correct because they can't, according to what I've read, move enough air to get down to the 30 range, so not sure how they came to that spec. Even the review on them stated that the bass was natural and extended, warm and deep, but no mention of powerful.

Even if you look at subwoofers, the stronger ones drive larger diameter woofers, so there has to be something there about the size of the woofer that will translate into a deeper more powerful impact. A lot of modern speakers come with powered subwoofers inside the speaker like Definitive Technology BP9080X, these are really strong having a powered subwoofer in each speaker that can reach down to 16!

I have played a low bass music CD and a movie with lots of low sub bass responses through my JBL's then I have to go around and put small felt pads on the picture frames throughout the living room to eliminate that rattle noise they'll produce from the speakers pounding; so like before at my old house I had to go around the room in my new house with the speakers going and find sources of extraneous noise and eliminate it, sort of a process but with the right bass frequencies running it only takes about 20 to 30 minutes to find and fix. I hate extraneous noises when I'm trying to especially listen to music, but movies as well.

Amazon pricing you have to be careful about, usually the price for a speaker on Amazon is the price for one not a pair; also you have to check anything you buy of importance on Amazon to make real sure that the seller is an authorized retailer for the item your buying, if not your warranty will suffer.