The ongoing hookless rims saga

[Spdntrxi]

Originally Posted by Clean39T

Same. Every podcaster and prognosticator looking for clicks is crying foul - but this is most likely user error more than anything.

exactly.. really gets old.

[benb]

Originally Posted by prototoast

To put things in context, one of the interesting stories in Phil Gaimon's book was the year his team was sponsored by HED wheels and Kenda tires, and Kenda only made 23mm tubular tires, which were too narrow for HED's wide rims. So the riders were cracking rims, so the mechanics were increasing the pressure in the tires so the riders had poor traction in the rain and crashed a lot.

So at least we don't have that problem anymore.

I thought that was Zipp.

[fourflys]

Originally Posted by Spdntrxi

exactly.. really gets old.

check out the link I posted a few posts ago..

[Mark McM]

Originally Posted by osbk67

As usual I’m probably missing something, but I can’t see the correlation here. What possible motivation does the UCI have to allow the continued usage of particular tyre size/rim size/rim type configurations that are outside international standards and potentially unsafe?

Surely not even Big Hookless wants pro racers riding tyres too narrow for their rim IDs?

Firstly, the CPA isn't asking the UCI to ban hookless rim/tire combinations outside of the standards - they are asking the UCI to ban all hookless rims.

As far as the correlation to the tobacco industry:

There has been bad publicity due a widely seen incident of one more more tires blowing off hookless rims, and also a widely publicized statement from an organization of riders (the CPA) that hookless rims should be banned for the safety of the riders. The UCI claims to be interested in rider safety, so of course they have to issue a statement regarding the recent publicity. But on the other hand, the makers of hookless rims bring a lot of sponsorship money into the sport, so the UCI won't want to do anything to derail the money train. So the UCI has to at least pretend to take interest in rider safey (even if they know they are going to do nothing), and issuing a statement claiming to be doing research into the matter is a standard a delaying tactic (much like the tobacco's industries claims that more research was necessary was a delaying tactic to continue doing business as usual).

[jimoots]

Originally Posted by benb

There's a major dissonance between a pro riders union saying they think this is too unsafe for the benefits provided and then we have recreational riders or amateur racers saying the benefits are so important the risk is worth it.

Personally I'm skeptical I'd even see any difference going all the way from hooked tubed alloy to hookless tubeless carbon. Maybe I'd feel a difference, but do I think it would actually make any speed difference in the real world, not really.

Originally Posted by notsew

Here here. We're all just trying to look "pro" and willing to accept a less safe product to do it.

Hookless is so obviously a margin grab by the manufacturers. It's clearly less safe. What benefit do we get for accepting a less safe alternative? none. not even cheaper or lighter wheels.

Yesterday I read this velo article and it just seemed so silly to me that people would go out and buy these hookless rims, surely people will vote with their pocket book and buy the clearly safer alternative... Reading this thread, not so much.... gotta look pro and rock those zipps.

Firstly. Had a buddy experience a catastrophic tire blowoff on the weekend just gone so this topic is a little raw for me.

I think it’s simpler than trying to look pro.

The individuals here who are “pro hookless” have invested in the platform. Either by way of retailing a brand that are full gas on hookless, or simply having bought the wheels.

Put bluntly, it’s commercial incentive and/or not being able to ignore a sunk cost (or simply admit you were wrong!)…

With pros (Vine, Degent) experiencing this I wouldn’t be surprised if the UCI pulls a handbrake on the tech… I mean supertuck, puppy paws or angled in levers didn’t claim any scalps and they got banned. Zipp having a patent on retrofitting hooks indicates they see real risk here too.

All of that ignores how crazy it is to be claiming a wheel system that requires a 30mm tyre that measures 32mm (looking at you Zipp) is more aero than a hooked rim with a narrower tyre. For very little weight saving (as others note - they’re much heavier than initial release) or any other benefit.

Edit: commentary just about road hookless. I understand wider and lower psi is fine.

[EB]

Originally Posted by jimoots

The individuals here who are “pro hookless” have invested in the platform. Either by way of retailing a brand that are full gas on hookless, or simply having bought the wheels.

I have a counterexample here, which is those of us (me) who have had hookless mountain bike and gravel rims operating trouble free for years and for which none of this is applicable. I don't ride tires < 40mm wide anymore, generally speaking. Tubeless is awesome and for the use cases I use it for, hookless rims are absolutely fine. I don't think that makes me "pro hookless."

Road tires? I could care less. If I was using road tires and wheels, I'd probably just use clinchers and tubes. Road tubeless? meh.

[glepore]

I'd really like those that are defending hookless as a system to explain to us why they feel its a benefit, other than a couple dollars and 5-10 grams.

[Mark McM]

Originally Posted by glepore

I'd really like those that are defending hookless as a system to explain to us why they feel its a benefit, other than a couple dollars and 5-10 grams.

The hookless defenders are not claiming that there is a user benefit. They are claiming that there is no evidence supporting the idea that they are any more dangerous.

In the Marginal Gains podcast, Josh Poertner said that in general he thinks that hooked rims are better than hookless. But he also says that he has never seen the industry abandon a cost cutting measure, so he thinks that hookless is here to stay.

(On the other hand, press fit bottom brackets were also a cost cutting measure, but the industry has begun returning to threaded BBs due to customer demand. So maybe if enough customers reject hookless wheels, hookless wheel makers will go back to hooks.)

[rice rocket]

Originally Posted by fourflys

decent discussion on this recent "The Wild Ones" podcast/video, you can scroll per the timeline if you just can't spare the time to watch to the whole thing great podcast/series though, highly recommended!

https://youtu.be/DYLlI8xNX64?si=kJOzXpTRSXOnxKn2

Jimmy bothers me to no end. Francis needs to ditch him and bring back bike fit James.

This was the topic du jour on Geek Warning as well.

https://escapecollective.com/podcast...hookless-road/

[Likes2ridefar]

Originally Posted by EB

I have a counterexample here, which is those of us (me) who have had hookless mountain bike and gravel rims operating trouble free for years and for which none of this is applicable. I don't ride tires < 40mm wide anymore, generally speaking. Tubeless is awesome and for the use cases I use it for, hookless rims are absolutely fine. I don't think that makes me "pro hookless."

Road tires? I could care less. If I was using road tires and wheels, I'd probably just use clinchers and tubes. Road tubeless? meh.

Very similar experience and thoughts!

[jimoots]

Originally Posted by EB

I have a counterexample here, which is those of us (me) who have had hookless mountain bike and gravel rims operating trouble free for years and for which none of this is applicable. I don't ride tires < 40mm wide anymore, generally speaking. Tubeless is awesome and for the use cases I use it for, hookless rims are absolutely fine. I don't think that makes me "pro hookless."

Road tires? I could care less. If I was using road tires and wheels, I'd probably just use clinchers and tubes. Road tubeless? meh.

Sorry, I forgot to note that my comments were strictly about road application.

I am an advocate for the insane advantage of tubeless off road and understand hookless doesn’t have the same issues at wider tyre widths with lower pressures

[Spdntrxi]

Originally Posted by fourflys

check out the link I posted a few posts ago..

no thanks..Jimmy is a putz

[rice rocket]

Originally Posted by Spdntrxi

no thanks..Jimmy is a putz

Couldn't agree more.

[Cat3roadracer]

Two days ago I set up tubeless Enve AG25 wheels with Specialized Pathfinder Pro 38’s. Got them to 70lbs with the compressor and let them sit for about an hour. Dropped the pressure to 50 and it has been at 50 since. A very smooth set up in my opinion.

[benb]

Originally Posted by jimoots

Sorry, I forgot to note that my comments were strictly about road application.

I am an advocate for the insane advantage of tubeless off road and understand hookless doesn’t have the same issues at wider tyre widths with lower pressures

But on top of that *for the rider* hookless has even less benefit over hooked tubeless on offroad bikes because the 5-10g weight savings is even less significant than on a super light road bike.

But yah, if it saves the manufacturers money and they can make it safe we will all be stuck with it.

Although if this only effects carbon personally I will just not bother with carbon wheels unless they really come down to nearly every bike.