The 'Un-Official' Campagnolo Ekar thread

[rain dogs]

Man, we can argue to death the minutiae of anything, no?

I love Ultra shift, I love being able to downshift multiple cogs with one throw, but on gravel I use Powershift. Do I miss Ultra? No, I don't even think about it. The amount of instances I feel its really needed when riding gravel....??? Like... none.

Do you know how fast powershift shifts even with multiple clicks?

We're talking like 1 second difference. When in gravel do you need to dump the cassette from the huge cog in the back to the tiny? When sprinting away from a bear while cresting a hill?

The main benefit of the dumping of the cassette was doing the double drop to match Big/Little cadence on the front rings anyway. This is 1x, that need doesn't exist.

[thirdgenbird]

I’m guessing most of my multiple up shifts are directly tied to accommodating a front shift. This is out of the equation with 1x. I don’t recall a lot of cassette dumping with my old 1x10 record setup.

Multiple downshifts were more valuable. Coming to a stop, the ground turning soft/sandy quickly, or a quick incline.

I am also speculating it was a design choice or trade off with the new thumb lever and not tied to cost. This is me running with the assumption it’s actually an ultrashift internal mech that was limited to 1 shift. I am guessing it shifts on the lever push, not on the lever release. (Pretty sure powershift shifts when you release the lever)

[Mark McM]

Originally Posted by FlashUNC

Who wants a downshift lever that can ratchet through multiple gears on gravel? It seems like a recipe for people shifting multiple gears accidentally when bouncing over the rough stuff. One gear at a time makes way more sense, especially for a 1x group.

I admit I've done little gravel riding. But I've done a lot of road and MTB riding, and I do multiple shifts (in both directions) quite often for both. Here in New England, we don't have many big hills on our MTB trails, but they are often steep, with rapid transitions between steep uphills and downhills. So it's not uncommon to dump several gears quickly when going into an uphill, and then dump several gears in the other direction when cresting and heading down.

Admittedly, in most cases being able to do multiple shifts to bigger sprockets is more important than doing multiple shifts to smaller sprockets, but it is still nice to be able to go directly to the gear you want with one movement in either direction. This is one of the things that Campagnolo could do that others couldn't. But now there is less to distinguish Campagnolo from the others.

[rain dogs]

Originally Posted by Mark McM

This is one of the things that Campagnolo could do that others couldn't. But now there is less to distinguish Campagnolo from the others.

This isn't true, but I think why people hang onto this 'feature' so passionately, also because people make it synonymous with the 'quality' or 'tier' of the group. Campagnolo still has the distinction of being able to do this, they still have Ultra like they always have. They still have Power like they always have. This is still in the tier of top-of-the-line gravel mechanical groupsets - if not the leader.

Likely because it's 1x, and for control, they just don't have that feature on Ekar,

That doesn't change anything.

If anything, and I have no way of proving this, but I would bet that dumping the cassette would lead to way more possibility of chain suck and/or potential for drivetrain damage in bad conditions... maybe not on 1x, but for sure it would on 2x.

[FlashUNC]

Originally Posted by Hellgate

Me. If I use multiple shift capability everyday on the road, why would I not need it off road? I don't see your argument. Are you implying gravel is flatter and slower?

I am implying there's a higher chance of things going unintentionally pear shaped on gravel for any number of reasons, and being able to ratchet down half the cassette might not be the best solution for downshifting in that kind of environment. If you want a rider in that kind of scenario to have the highest chance of getting the gear they want, when they want, one gear at a time down makes the most sense. There's the least chance and smallest penalty if something goes wrong.

[jtbadge]

Originally Posted by rain dogs

This is still in the tier of top-of-the-line gravel mechanical groupsets - if not the leader.

Classic paceline campy homerism, this groupset hasn't even made it on to anyone's bike yet and it's already the leader?

[Mark McM]

Originally Posted by FlashUNC

If you want a rider in that kind of scenario to have the highest chance of getting the gear they want, when they want, one gear at a time down makes the most sense. There's the least chance and smallest penalty if something goes wrong.

Not always. When riding bikes with Shimano shifters (105 & Ultegra), To my frustration I have found that pressing the upshift lever (sub-lever behind the shift lever) sometimes doesn't result in a shift. This can happen if you press the upshift lever multiple times quickly - pressing the lever twice might result in one shift or two. So doing a double shift sometimes requires 2 presses, and sometimes requires 3.

Some may claim that this operator error - I shouldn't push the upshift lever so rapidly. But I'd say it is more of a deficiency, since other shifters don't have this problem.

[tomato coupe]

Originally Posted by FlashUNC

I am implying there's a higher chance of things going unintentionally pear shaped on gravel for any number of reasons, and being able to ratchet down half the cassette might not be the best solution for downshifting in that kind of environment. If you want a rider in that kind of scenario to have the highest chance of getting the gear they want, when they want, one gear at a time down makes the most sense. There's the least chance and smallest penalty if something goes wrong.

3 gears = half the cassette? This isn't a 1x6 setup, it's 1x13.

The rare times I have mis-shifted with UltraShift resulted in changing gears 3 gears instead of 2, 2 gears instead of 1, etc. It certainly wasn't a big deal, and I wouldn't want to give up the capability just to avoid an occasional minor mis-shift.

(My wife has Record EPS on her gravel bike, and it is programmed to shift the entire length of the cassette when the button is held down. It has much more of a hair trigger than mechanical Record, yet she has never experienced an unintentional cassette dump.)

[yinzerniner]

Originally Posted by tomato coupe

3 gears = half the cassette? This isn't a 1x6 setup, it's 1x13.

The rare times I have mis-shifted with UltraShift resulted in changing gears 3 gears instead of 2, 2 gears instead of 1, etc. It certainly wasn't a big deal, and I wouldn't want to give up the capability just to avoid an occasional minor mis-shift.

(My wife has Record EPS on her gravel bike, and it is programmed to shift the entire length of the cassette when the button is held down. It has much more of a hair trigger than mechanical Record, yet she has never experienced an unintentional cassette dump.)

With your Ultrashift though were your missed gears at the percentage jumps that Ekar has? Missing a shift that covers two or three gear ratio changes of ~6-7% each is one thing, but missing that same shift at 10-13% is a whole other ballgame.

That being said, for reliability and simplicity I don't see how a Powershift is a negative in the specified typical use of Ekar. Ultrashift is cool and satisfying, but how many times did people actually use it when riding rougher stuff? It's great to have the option, and who knows maybe Campy will bring it back for a later "professional gravel" groupset release in the future, where the speeds are higher and the cassette dumping more essential.

[thirdgenbird]

Are we calling this powershift because it’s been confirmed that it has powershift internals or because we are assuming one shift means powershift?

[tomato coupe]

Originally Posted by yinzerniner

With your Ultrashift though were your missed gears at the percentage jumps that Ekar has? Missing a shift that covers two or three gear ratio changes of ~6-7% each is one thing, but missing that same shift at 10-13% is a whole other ballgame.

My experience is with road gearing, so the gear spacing is smaller.

I would say, however, that if one gear mis-shifts create major problems, then the gear spacing is too big to begin with.

Ultrashift is cool and satisfying, but how many times did people actually use it when riding rougher stuff?

I use it all the time, especially in gravel races.

[Mark McM]

Originally Posted by thirdgenbird

Are we calling this powershift because it’s been confirmed that it has powershift internals or because we are assuming one shift means powershift?

I think I was the first to apply the label "Power-shft". It was based on hands on reviews which described only being able to move to smaller sprockets one at a time (which is a feature of Power-shift). I have no knowledge of the actual internal workings of the lever, or what Campagnolo might be calling it.

[thirdgenbird]

Originally Posted by Mark McM

I think I was the first to apply the label "Power-shft". It was based on hands on reviews which described only being able to move to smaller sprockets one at a time (which is a feature of Power-shift). I have no knowledge of the actual internal workings of the lever, or what Campagnolo might be calling it.

They are calling it ultrashift. I assume that means it’s ultrashift guts but with a hard stop that limits lever throw to a single cog. Maybe a result of the large thumb lever.

[Mark McM]

Originally Posted by yinzerniner

With your Ultrashift though were your missed gears at the percentage jumps that Ekar has? Missing a shift that covers two or three gear ratio changes of ~6-7% each is one thing, but missing that same shift at 10-13% is a whole other ballgame.

On MTBs, which also have large gear ratio changes between sprockets, I have used several shifting systems that allow multiple sprocket shifts (in both direction). I found the ability to do multiple sprocket shifts to be well worth the occasional times I shifted too many sprockets.

Another feature of Power-shift (and STI for that matter) is that not only can you shift only one sprocket at a time when moving to smaller sprockets, but that the shifts in this direction are delayed. The shift doesn't happen when you press the lever, it only happens after you release the lever. A minor thing, but one more thing to make me prefer Ultra-shift.

[sjbraun]

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