Question About Position on the Bike

[cah485]

Thanks for all the feedback and input everyone, really appreciate it. Couple things:

1. Regarding a basic bike fit from a professional. A few folks have said even though a professional fitter likely won't get my issues sorted out, I should have a fit done if I never have in the past just to make sure I'm in the right ballpark. I feel very confident that I'm in the right ballpark. Been riding seriously for 20 years, I just come at it a little bit differently than a lot of single-discipline cyclists, which is why I value the perspective of people on this forum so much. I've never been as into the bike side of things, and more focused on just the riding. That said, I bought my first bike from Glen Swann (https://www.fasttalklabs.com/fast-ta...or-glenn-swan/) who set my position way back then. I've obviously tweaked it over the years and experimented with slight shifts, but I'm very confident I'm in the right basic position. Part of this belief (rightly or wrongly) also stems from my opinion that getting a basic fit isn't rocket science.

2. Regarding an advanced fit. I actually do think an exceptional fitter (or physical therapist with a cycling focus) could provide some really good insight. The problem is who the heck is an exceptional fitter? I travel a lot for work and when I was chasing down the running injury thing, I would look folks up and get recommendations for wherever I happened to be. Saw a lot of different people over the years. And through all that I don't think I ever went to someone exceptional. Maybe the guy that made the video that helped with my running problems the most is an exceptional specialist (Joe Uhan), but the people I saw didn't say much beyond what I could glean from articles, books, etc. Certainly nothing that was unique enough to hit the nail on the head.

And to be honest, that extends to the orthotics as well. I have a pair from Don Lamson, who is supposed to be exceptional. He didn't do anything different than anyone else. They are a pretty generic pair of orthotics based on how he has always made them and what he thought I needed (which didn't work very well). That's why I started fabricating my own. Based on getting three pairs of custom orthotics made over 10 years or so, and talking with folks, I figured out that most people put the arch support really far back, but I have a longer arch that benefits from extending the arch support over a longer length. The guy that helped me realize that was Danny Abshire (https://activeimprintsco.com/pages/about-us).

If anyone has a recommendation for a truly exceptional bike fitter, I'm open to it. I honestly just don't see much value because I'm not so sure there is such a thing as an exceptional bike fitter. Of all the running experts I went to, pretty much every one said the guy I saw before didn't get it right for reason x, y, and z. You see a couple guys in a row that do that and you realize that despite being really nice, well-intentioned people, none of them is perceptive enough to understand the anomalies of an individual and is just applying some basic knowledge they gained based on what works for most people. This likely works for most people, but not for the outliers. Hence one of my initial statements about believing in treating yourself as an experiment with N=1.

3. I'm glad I reached out through the forum! I honestly never considered shorter cranks, but I actually think that's a great idea that might work. It would definitely pull my feet under me more. I'll drop on the 165 mm cranks and see what happens.

4. I also appreciate the information on saddle position. I wasn't sure if that knee over spindle thing was something that really shouldn't be violated, or just a starting point. Now that I know it's just a general rule that a lot of folks deviate from, I'm definitely going to try that as well.

Thanks again everyone, good discussion and and much appreciated!

[cah485]

Originally Posted by benb

Some of it is the shoes suck too! The easiest way for me avoid orthotics is to avoid shoes too. The current ultra-soft-foam craze seems to be the worst trend of all for me at least. They magnify the issues orthotics try to correct. Plenty of them can negate my orthotics completely. There were a bunch of different running shoes & athletic shoes I was wearing successfully at version X with or without an orthotic and then when X+1 came out they hit a new level of softness and they stopped working/caused injury.

This has been my experience EXACTLY. Super high stack cushioned shoes like Hokas (though all running shoe makers are trending this way) cause my feet to sink and sag into them, amplifying all the problems further up the kinetic chain.

Used to be I would have some pain that would get worse the more I ran in a minimalist running shoe. A standard stability running shoe wouldn't address it all (and would introduce some other issues). But an orthotic in a standard stability shoe worked pretty well (though also occasionally causing pretty significant tweaks to my achilles or back). Once the softer higher stack shoes were introduced (and companies stopped making dual density stability running shoes), orthotics wouldn't work in any shoe for running. As you note above, the orthotic would just sink and sag and increase the length of the lever arm between my moving foot and the ground. I basically had no options other than running in a pretty minimal shoe. Thankfully the form trick helped, and the knee pain has been minimized / I'm able to manage it.

Orthotics for cycling have continued to work ok, and like I mentioned in an earlier post, aren't the worst thing in the world. But still don't feel awesome, or completely address the right knee issue. I'm hoping some of the suggestions here are as impactful as my form change has been for running!

[fa63]

I have heard folks speak very highly of Ivan Gorman:

https://www.ivanogorman.com/fitservices

There is also Colby Pearce, a disciple of Steve Hogg (like Neill Stanbury previously mentioned) but he seems a bit more "touchy-feely" and less scientific to me (which I could be completely wrong about):

https://www.colbypearce.com/integrat...cycle-fitting/

And then there is Pedal Fit; their main fitter has all the certifications

https://www.pedalfitpt.com/about

Originally Posted by cah485

Thanks for all the feedback and input everyone, really appreciate it. Couple things:

1. Regarding a basic bike fit from a professional. A few folks have said even though a professional fitter likely won't get my issues sorted out, I should have a fit done if I never have in the past just to make sure I'm in the right ballpark. I feel very confident that I'm in the right ballpark. Been riding seriously for 20 years, I just come at it a little bit differently than a lot of single-discipline cyclists, which is why I value the perspective of people on this forum so much. I've never been as into the bike side of things, and more focused on just the riding. That said, I bought my first bike from Glen Swann (https://www.fasttalklabs.com/fast-ta...or-glenn-swan/) who set my position way back then. I've obviously tweaked it over the years and experimented with slight shifts, but I'm very confident I'm in the right basic position. Part of this belief (rightly or wrongly) also stems from my opinion that getting a basic fit isn't rocket science.

2. Regarding an advanced fit. I actually do think an exceptional fitter (or physical therapist with a cycling focus) could provide some really good insight. The problem is who the heck is an exceptional fitter? I travel a lot for work and when I was chasing down the running injury thing, I would look folks up and get recommendations for wherever I happened to be. Saw a lot of different people over the years. And through all that I don't think I ever went to someone exceptional. Maybe the guy that made the video that finally fixed my running problems is an exceptional specialist (Joe Uhan), but the people I saw didn't say much beyond what I could glean from articles, books, etc. Certainly nothing that was unique enough to hit the nail on the head.

And to be honest, that extends to the orthotics as well. I have a pair from Don Lamson, who is supposed to be exceptional. He didn't do anything different than anyone else. They are a pretty generic pair of orthotics based on how he has always made them and what he thought I needed (which didn't work very well). That's why I started fabricating my own. Based on getting three pairs of custom orthotics made over 10 years or so, and talking with folks, I figured out that most people put the arch support really far back, but I have a longer arch that benefits from extending the arch support over a longer length. The guy that helped me realize that was Danny Abshire (https://activeimprintsco.com/pages/about-us).

If anyone has a recommendation for a truly exceptional bike fitter, I'm open to it. I honestly just don't see much value because I'm not so sure there is such a thing as an exceptional bike fitter. Of all the running experts I went to, pretty much every one said the guy I saw before didn't get it right for reason x, y, and z. You see a couple guy in a row that do that and you realize that despite being really nice, well-intentioned people, none of them is perceptive enough to understand the anomalies of an individual and is just applying some basic knowledge they gained based on what works for most people. This likely works for most people, but not for the outliers. Hence one of my initial statements about believing in treating yourself as an experiment with N=1.

3. I'm glad I reached out through the forum! I honestly never considered shorter cranks, but I actually think that's a great idea that might work. It would definitely pull my feet under me more. I'll drop on the 165 mm cranks and see what happens.

4. I also appreciate the information on saddle position. I wasn't sure if that knee over spindle thing was something that really shouldn't be violated, or just a starting point. Now that I know it's just a general rule that a lot of folks deviate from, I'm definitely going to try that as well.

Thanks again everyone, good discussion and and much appreciated!

[osbk67]

Originally Posted by cah485

…I feel very confident that I'm in the right ballpark…
…I've obviously tweaked it over the years and experimented with slight shifts, but I'm very confident I'm in the right basic position. Part of this belief (rightly or wrongly) also stems from my opinion that getting a basic fit isn't rocket science…

…I honestly never considered shorter cranks, but I actually think that's a great idea that might work. It would definitely pull my feet under me more. I'll drop on the 165 mm cranks and see what happens…

With respect, I don’t think one can be very confident in their bike fit without having considered crank arm length at all.

I’ve listened to Colby Pearce’s podcasts long enough to hear him gravitate from an apparently singular bike fit focus to a much broader and more holistic fit-for-life approach applied to cycling. I’ve never talked with him, much less visited (he’s across the Pacific from me) and he won’t be everyone’s cup of tea but having read of your situation and running background I’d suggest giving him a call if he’s within range. My own very modest club running improved markedly when I switched focus from what shoes I was running in to how I was running.

No affiliation. Good luck.

[cah485]

Originally Posted by osbk67

With respect, I don’t think one can be very confident in their bike fit without having considered crank arm length at all.

Fair point! Not that I've never considered it in general. I've switched out cranks in the past (which is why I have an extra set laying around). I just didn't consider it in the context of trying to "tighten up my stride" and "get my feet more under me" (which I should have in hindsight!). That's why I appreciate the collective wisdom of the forum!