First Road Bike Ruminations - point me in the right direction

[br0qn]

Originally Posted by uber

If I were looking for a bike to do the amount of mileage with the climbing you are describing, it would be a used disc brake frame that would fit as perfectly as possible. Without the right fit, no bike will feel great. My personal fav is Ti. I have a bit more confidence in a used Ti (or steel) than carbon.
I own 2 rim bikes, but if I’m coming down a hill at speed, and it’s a bit wet, I am more secure on disc. Disc will also let you go to a wider tire.
My plan would be to find the right sized frame, and stalk,EBay or wherever for a used disc Moots, Seven, Dean or whomever shows up first with the right geo at the right price.

fortunately LA is particularly dry =] but also i'm pretty committed to alloy wheels if i end up on rim brakes. my current setup on the voodoo of cantis/alloy leaves something to be desired on fast descents but i've been managing fine so far. i've been meaning to replace the ciamillo cantis with the pauls i have in a bin but havn't been able to bring myself to it yet, the ciamillos are too cool ;D

a Seven would be on my shortlist if i were commissioning something new and if a Dean Costanza came up i'd have to have it on name alone.

Originally Posted by Baron Blubba

I understand and empathize with your desire to support smaller builders and companies, can't argue with you there. Sadly, in my experience, it seems like the bigger companies simply make much better bikes when it comes to carbon. I just don't think anyone not the size of Giant, Trek, and Specialized can afford to do their R&D and make hundreds of iterations until they reach 'perfect for now'. Steel seems to be different.

You mention not wanting to buy new at this point. As a first time road bike buyer who is relatively new to the activity, I think new is actually the way to go. If you find a *GOOD* shop, they will help you find the correct size, give you (or sell you) a fit so that the correct size fits you correctly, and most important you'll be able to test ride lots of bikes and find one that you like best. At the moment, you seem to be working based almost entirely on hearsay, with very little by way of experiential point of reference. This seems to be causing you to dismiss things offhand --things which you might actually enjoy if you tried them. The internet is largely a collection of echo chambers, and Paceline is largely an echo chamber of appreciation for exotic metal (steel, carbon) bikes. (Paceline is also so much more than that, but that is definitely one characteristic.) For every person here singing the praises of and lusting after a bike with a Christian name on its tubing, there are figuratively a thousand others who would do the same for the latest Gofast-aero-lightweight-carbon-miracle with a generic sounding brand name adorning its downtube (Giant, Trek, Specialized, Cannondale, etc).

There are diehards in every niche who swear to the superiority of their object of choice, many of whom have never actually tried the supposedly inferior alternatives. In bikes, this goes both ways in many areas --metal to carbon, carbon to metal; Sram to Shimano to Campagnolo, then back again; Wahoo to Garmin, Garmin to Wahoo; this helmet, that helmet, these shoes, those shoes, these brakes, those brakes, so on and so forth.

If the social aspects and visual aesthetics of small company metal appeal, then that's that. But like you said yourself, things like tubeless wheels, electronic shifting, disc brakes --try them, you might like them!

Personally, I love how my steel bikes ride and I'm okay with rim brakes. They worked for ~100 years and they still work (with aluminum brake tracks). But disc brakes are so significantly superior that whenever someone poo poo's them I just think "You haven't actually tried them in any significant capacity, have you?" And while steel is great and I'm glad to own and frequently ride to of 'em, if I had to own only one bike, especially with your ambitions of riding 100 mile/10,000+ elevation days regularly, geez, no question, gimme a nice carbon TCR.

no doubt r&d at the large companies puts them ahead in some respects, but i don't need anything bleeding edge, even if it's trickledown to an entry level speshy or 'dale or whatever. if i were buying new i'd still rather sacrifice what i don't need and stretch the budget to buy from a smaller company or builder. not only to have something that 100(000) others don't but to support independents. that said, i'm not there yet and that position my well change by the time i am.

my position on discs isn't unfounded though totally inexperienced. i'm DIY as much as i can, i enjoy it, and i'm still wrapping my head around all of the things mechanical on a bike and dialing it in. discs are a whole other animal to tackle, more standards, bleeding, setup etc... and man i just prefer the look of a rim brake. but again, yes, i'd love to try all of the things and then make a decision. until then i have to go off of research and weigh the pros/cons in respects to what i'm after. and as you said, rim breaks have worked for ~100 years, they ought to work for me.

on kind of that note, i do feel like TPU tubes + sealant might be a best of all worlds thing. just need more TPU tubes with removeable cores, hopefully RideNow does that before long.

Originally Posted by EB

If ease of maintenance is important to you, you can pretty much write off buying a new carbon bike from a large manufacturer. As nice as many of them are, almost every single road race bike in the most recent model years has been spec’d with thru-headset (and in many cases thru-stem) cable and hose routing.

This means removing cables and completely redoing routing if you need to replace a headset bearing. If the routing goes through the stem, you will also have to reroute cables if the stem or handlebars have to be changed. If the brakes are hydraulic, a bleed of both brakes will be required.

So far this disease hasn’t infected gravel bikes… so far.

this is exactly one of the reasons i'm not interested in a new, large manufacturer made carbon bike.

Originally Posted by giordana93

I'm not going to dispute the general idea that a modern carbon disk bike is a wonderful thing, and for many, the best choice. It's debatable and a fun debate to have in this echo chamber in the depths of winter. I will, however, dispute the supremacy of Giant, Trek and Specialized. That's ridiculous. Those just happen to be the most widely sold. Not to include the likes of Scott, Bianchi, Cannondale and a whole host of others in the conversation, especially if OP is close to a shop that sells these other brands, is not great advice. I have always found Specialized too gimicky, often with proprietary parts; and if you gave me a high end Trek I would sell it to buy something else. Nothing exceptional about their offerings and to say that I do not approve of their corporate practices is an understatement. We just lost a local dealer who had been selling Trek for decades, mainly because a Trek corporate store opened maybe 5 miles away, and guess who had stock when times got tough? Usually overpriced when you drill down in the specs. Specialized has not always been great with their dealers either--or with coffee shops who took the name of a town in France that big S confused with one of their trademarks. I'm brand neutral on Giant. They make good bikes for a good price and I have respect for them, but no real spark for them either. The TCR is a fine bike.
My "fast" bike is a Scott Foil. I don't think anyone who knows carbon technology would find the Scott engineers and designers lagging behind the big 3. By the way, even though the Foil is an aero race bike it has room for 30s (one of the benefits of disc brakes of course). Not trying to pick a fight; just pointing out this myth of the great R&D from corporations who spend alot on the marketing of their R&D

****ty of trek to screw a loyal distributor though it's no surprise. i've basically sworn off of anything trek anyway given how they acquired bontrager ('95) only to shut them down a year later.

if I were shopping for a new bike from a relatively large manufacturer, I'd be looking at Scott (i like their early mtb's) among the likes of BMC, Focus, Time etc. but alas i am not. that list may be larger or smaller if i'd put more effort into seriously considering a new off the shelf carbon bike but i'm really not.

if budget were unlimited and i knew precisely what i wanted/need i'd probably get a custom ti (seven, mosaic, ritte, who knows there are so many) and ;D a custom carbon (appleman, crumpton, parlee) and a custom stainless stelbl with campy12 mechanical, maybe even disc!

Originally Posted by weisan

br0qn pal, judging by your post and responses, and looking through pictures of your current bike and previous ones on your website/IG etc, I felt that you should give yourself more credit than you think you deserve - you have good taste, looks like you are having a lot of fun, you are fit and your position on the bike looks pretty good. You have gone through stages of your cycling development, evolving as your goals and interests change. All of which provided you with valuable experience that have informed you of what you like/dislike, your riding style, and the direction you want to go.

What I am tryinhg to say is: trust your instincts and stay on course.

Whatever you do, I want you to remember one thing: focus on what's important.

There are typically three levers that a cyclist can pull to change things up.

Lever 1) Personal fitness, health, flexbility

Lever 2) Environment, terrain, location, where they live and ride

Lever 3) Equipment, latest technology ergonomics, weight, aero

Lever 1 is arguably the hardest to pull off - dedicated training, time on the saddle, miles in the legs, learn to draft and ride in the paceline, having to watch their diet, reduce weight, keep up with their fitness, stretch every day. These take discipline and effort.

Lever 2 may or may not always be in our control. Where we live and places we ride sometimes are limited by our occupation and who we work for, and the time/money we have to travel to the ideal location.

Lever 3 is the low hanging fruit. People with the financial means tend to pull lever 3 a lot as a way to make up for the lack of lever 1 and 2. But the truth is, you don't need a $7k bike to maximize your potential or to enjoy riding a bike in whatever terrain or reach whatever goals of your choosing. Seriously, you don't! There are many, many bikes under $3k or even much less that can meet any or all of your requirements. I should know because I have done it over the years simply by buying and trying out different used bikes being offered on the classifieds here or craigslist or eBay. I have kept my expenses pretty low and affordable by doing my own wrenching work, buying parts online when on sales and not chasing after the latest and greatest. That's not to say that i am a luddite or a retro-guy in fact I have made it a policy not to criticize or comment on something until I have tried it myself and I have. I constantly switch between bikes that are 5-10 years apart in terms of bike tech yet I don't find myself handicapped or missing out the fun. Far from it, I focus on what's important: the riding experience, my personal fitness, social interactions.

The last thing I will say is, bike fit is a dynamic range not a fixed number. It's not static, it can change with time and your body. The goal is to keep it fluid and flexible, experiment yourself, be bold enough to try different things, you will get better at it with experience and when you are in tune with your body, as long as you get into the ball park or inside the fit window you are good.

that is much appreciated! i've been flailing a bit and relying mostly on research (i like endlessly reading reports and experiences of others anyway) but i do feel i've landed on my feet with the voodoo build and i'm certainly having fun.

lever 1 - i suppose i'm lucky this one is easy for me. riding the bike is fun, and i want to do bigger/funner rides so i'm training to make those big days possible and more funner.

lever 2 - lucky again with the kind of riding at arms reach around here. including the ballona creek/beach path which is miles and miles of car-less riding that i can be on in under 20 minutes. the slew of mountain roads and trails to explore shouldn't leave me wanting anytime soon.

lever 3 - here we are! totally aware i don't need a (nice) road bike to enjoy riding or to get more fit. actually seems kind of counter intuitive i think: ride bike to get healthy <> make bike require least amount effort to pedal by buying lightest aeroist bicycle money can buy <>

well noted re fit, i've noticed it's fluid ever over the months/miles on the voodoo. saddle has come up a bit over time and i've gotten more and more comfortable (flexible) with the drop.

we align on focus ! thanks again for your measured reply.

Originally Posted by Likes2ridefar

Since moving to axs, my bike requires less maintenance (none to be precise) besides keeping it cleaned and occasionally charging the battery. The chain and cassette last far longer. Since it uses dot fluid brakes are bled once a year. With tubeless and higher volume tires I almost never flat so all is required is monitoring the sealant and adding air as needed. Every single shift is exactly the same every single time and has been since day 1.

nice to hear. i so wish there were (more) top tier road groups with mechanical shifting. though perhaps a minority, i can't possibly be the only one. anyway, i know how these things work, why give anyone a choice...

Originally Posted by MatchDave

Saw the Look 585 on your list/photos of bikes that interest you. It's one of my two "never get rid of" frames. Exceptionally smooth ride, smoother than other carbon frames I've had, and I'm riding it with 25 mm tires, inflation in the 70's. Continental 5000s in 28 were too tight a fit for my comfort level, although they measure about 30 on the rim, and a true measured 28 might work fine.

I strongly agree with advice of getting a good fitting first, then see what frames have geometry that would work well for you. IF the Look 585 geometry would work well, lots of people absolutely love that frame.

Having said all that, obviously the Santa Monica mountains have big descents to go with those big climbs. Have driven some of the canyon descents, got my attention from a cyclist's perspective. I've never owned a bike with disk brakes, and cyclists have of course been doing such descents with rim brakes forever, but riding those descents frequently might get me to think about disks.

i've all but made up my mind on trying my best to find a sz small 585 in good shape for reasonable $. the medium in the classifieds now i pretty sure is going to be larger than i'd like (thanks @NHaero though for the nudge) which is too bad. the price and color are great.

re 28's on a 585... i think i remember reading somewhere at some point that clearance may have changed or gotten better toward the latter years of production. any truth to that?

re fit - going off the voodoo measurements it's close enough i think that picking one up is a sz small and taking that to a fitter is a small enough investment...gotta start somewhere.

Originally Posted by fourflys

OP- tons of good info/advice here for sure.. I would much of Baron Blubba says to heart.. while I LOVE buying used bikes as you can certainly get a lot of bike for the money, with the caveat "if it's the right size".. that is what a shop like Baron's would do for you it sounds like (never met Mike in person, but I like his style).. I have bought many used bikes based on what someone here or there told me is "my size".. and maybe there were, but I didn't have the experience of a good shop to help me fine tune that last bit of fit to make it perfect.. now that certainly depends on the shop for sure.. and, IMHO, fitters can be just as hit or miss on that as well..

anyway, Giants really are a fantastic bang for the buck, but if you are looking for mechanical, rim braked bikes, they are not for you as new.. if you are looking for rim brake road, I'm not really sure you need bigger than a true 28mm tire.. unless you are husky ( and you aren't at 135 of course) and need higher pressures (like me, but i still ride a comfy 28 around 80 psi), then maybe.. but I have often rode off pavement on 28s.. not chunky trail, but certainly dirt.. I guess what I'm saying is I wouldn't sleep on a mechanical, rim brake bike that fits well just because it only fits 28s.. (maybe I missed something in your original post on tire size, sorry if I did)

certainly plenty of options out there, and that is often the problem..

thanks for the input, especially re rider weight vs tire size and pressure. again, so many variables to consider when talking about ride quality. and yes, i need to find a reputable fitter here in LA which i doubt would be too hard. recs welcome if you're local


now, having said all of that... look at this thing kinda dreamy.

[br0qn]

Originally Posted by Kingson

don't know about that particular Izalco Max (electronic), but the one that i have, 2017 mechanical, will fit a 28mm (measured).
whether it will have clearance that you, or other people are comfortable with is another question.
currently the rear tire measures 26mm, and has more than enough clearance. 28mm will fit.
i assume that they have the same clearance.
i can take a picture with a 28mm tire/wheel installed

https://imgur.com/a/X0PVnhJ

the Look 585 will barely fit 28mm measured
conti GP4k2 25mm on pacenti forza rim

pic is the your '17 mechanical izalco max with a gp5k 700x25 measuring 28mm, on the forza ya?

interesting re the 585 comment. internal width on the forza is 20mm, is that the same hoop you tried a 28mm measured tire?

stev0 is running gp5k 700x28 tubeless on the HED ardennes black which has 21mm internal width...

no hard & fast rules I guess

i do have a shortlist of alloy clincher rim brake wheels and those particular HED are sort of top pick.

also, as for tires, there are a few 700x26 and 700x27 in name that i figured would be starting points for frames with 25-28mm tire clearance

vittoria/challenge/pirelli/enve/specialized/wolfpack

[Kingson]

Originally Posted by br0qn

pic is the your '17 mechanical izalco max with a gp5k 700x25 measuring 28mm, on the forza ya?

interesting re the 585 comment. internal width on the forza is 20mm, is that the same hoop you tried a 28mm measured tire?

stev0 is running gp5k 700x28 tubeless on the HED ardennes black which has 21mm internal width...

no hard & fast rules I guess

i do have a shortlist of alloy clincher rim brake wheels and those particular HED are sort of top pick.

also, as for tires, there are a few 700x26 and 700x27 in name that i figured would be starting points for frames with 25-28mm tire clearance

vittoria/challenge/pirelli/enve/specialized/wolfpack

the rim in the picture is the forza, 20mm internal
GP5K measure narrower than the 4k
i was just giving real-world example of a measured 28mm in the rear to show it works

that wheel/tire will fit in a 2007 585 rear triangle... barely. but i did it for years without any problems

[giordana93]

don't recall mention of budget but the bargains and some wonderful bikes are in rim brake flavors but there was a period when most had tight tire clearance. My steel Giordana from 93 has easy room for 28s and no way i would want anything smaller. Disk brakes make that easier but plenty of non-disk bikes over the years have good clearance.

[br0qn]

snagged a frameset that wasn't exactly on my short list and checks most of the boxes as well as a bonus box.

new thread to come shortly in the production bikes gallery section, i'll link it here when it's up but wanted to drop in and thank everyone for taking the time to weigh in and share their POV.

[m_sasso]

Originally Posted by br0qn

snagged a frameset that wasn't exactly on my short list and checks most of the boxes as well as a bonus box.

new thread to come shortly in the production bikes gallery section, i'll link it here when it's up but wanted to drop in and thank everyone for taking the time to weigh in and share their POV.

I hope you were not overly swayed by much of the noise in this thread, I sometimes think I must live on a different planet.

Best wishes with your build!

[deluz]

I think you are in the right track for a starter road bike.
Any of the SRAM 22 groups are great 11 speed.
It seems we are similar size and I also prefer a sloping top tube having short legs for my height. As already stated its going to be difficult finding a frame to fit 28mm or larger tires. I believe Tarmac SL6 does and came in a rim brake version and also older Giant TCRs.
I have a 2014 Canndondale Supersix but I can only fit 25mm in the rear.
I believe starting with 2016 there is clearance for 28mm.

[mass_biker]

Got that very same (vintage) Ritchey Road Logic. 28c on modern (wide) rims may not clear depending on rim and tire. Currently running Michelin 25c (which themselves run wide) on plumpish rims and the clearance with DA calipers up front is very tight due to the fork bridge. Tried 28c Michelins and they definitely did not clear. Later generations of the Road Logic have more clearance I think.

That said - the Ritchey Road Logic is a phenomenal bike. It’s one I turn to again and again, and I feel very lucky to be able to ride the heck out of it!

Good luck with your riding - all the choices you have included there look terrific.

[charliedid]

Originally Posted by mass_biker

Got that very same (vintage) Ritchey Road Logic. 28c on modern (wide) rims may not clear depending on rim and tire. Currently running Michelin 25c (which themselves run wide) on plumpish rims and the clearance with DA calipers up front is very tight due to the fork bridge. Tried 28c Michelins and they definitely did not clear. Later generations of the Road Logic have more clearance I think.

That said - the Ritchey Road Logic is a phenomenal bike. It’s one I turn to again and again, and I feel very lucky to be able to ride the heck out of it!

Good luck with your riding - all the choices you have included there look terrific.

Did the OP buy a Ritchey Road Logic or is this pointed at someone else?

[weisan]

Originally Posted by br0qn

snagged a frameset

Is it made of Columbus SLX?

[br0qn]

Originally Posted by m_sasso

I hope you were not overly swayed by much of the noise in this thread, I sometimes think I must live on a different planet.

Best wishes with your build!

;D i wasn't
and thank you

Originally Posted by deluz

I think you are in the right track for a starter road bike.
Any of the SRAM 22 groups are great 11 speed.
It seems we are similar size and I also prefer a sloping top tube having short legs for my height. As already stated its going to be difficult finding a frame to fit 28mm or larger tires. I believe Tarmac SL6 does and came in a rim brake version and also older Giant TCRs.
I have a 2014 Canndondale Supersix but I can only fit 25mm in the rear.
I believe starting with 2016 there is clearance for 28mm.

though an sl6 has no cool factor for me i do agree that it checked every box and had one came up for a steal i'd likely have gone for it. there was a yellow on red one, same color as the early Alez/stumpies, classic spesh colors, on buycycle that didn't last and had me questioning my bias. **edit** found a picture of it attached below. was listed at $2500 but would have been coming from the beautiful but far away cortina d'ampezzo and would have had buycycles fee on top. not sure why i'm so into it, it's a bit garish for me but it looks like it means business

Originally Posted by mass_biker

Got that very same (vintage) Ritchey Road Logic. 28c on modern (wide) rims may not clear depending on rim and tire. Currently running Michelin 25c (which themselves run wide) on plumpish rims and the clearance with DA calipers up front is very tight due to the fork bridge. Tried 28c Michelins and they definitely did not clear. Later generations of the Road Logic have more clearance I think.

That said - the Ritchey Road Logic is a phenomenal bike. It’s one I turn to again and again, and I feel very lucky to be able to ride the heck out of it!

Good luck with your riding - all the choices you have included there look terrific.

thank you & that's interesting, what model year do you mean by "vintage:? i thought all of the modern ones cleared 28s with aplomb like the one in my OP

Originally Posted by charliedid

Did the OP buy a Ritchey Road Logic or is this pointed at someone else?

perhaps i aught to have but no, didn't find one locally or at a low enough price to justify shipping.

Originally Posted by weisan

Is it made of Columbus SLX?

were that it was ! ;D

if i had it in hand i'd gladly show some pics but i haven't collected it yet and it's no fun posting someone else's pictures.

[Likes2ridefar]

Sharp looking bike, enjoy it!

[charliedid]

Like

[br0qn]

sorry for any confusion, that sl6 isn't mine, just one i spotted on my search that made me rethink picking up something from one of the big brands.