New Campagnolo Ekar coming on February 20th?

[Gwerziou]

Here's a nice article from the Escape Collective:
https://escapecollective.com/campagn...avel-groupset/

[Gwerziou]

Originally Posted by Upcountry

(yes I know they have a whopping one extra gear over other brands, but lets be frank, this is a talking point rather than a feature or benefit)

That extra gear, for those riding a 1x system, is hugely significant.

[Gwerziou]

It's 15% cheaper than the original Ekar(~$200)... insignificant in the grand scheme of things.
Wrong - 15% is always significant.

Especially when there are several cheaper 1x12 and 1x13 offerings.
Huh? Let's see those several cheaper 1 x 13 options.

-Still uses a proprietary freehub body, and starts with a 10t cog.
Wrong, any manufacturer can use this freehub body. What other freehub body would Campy use?

-Prorietary chain that you're unlikely to find in any shop.
An absurd point. Let's see the other 13 speed chains.

-An 8% increase in gear range(which surely could've been achieved on the existing derailleur).
Wrong again, it could not be achieved with the existing derailleur.

This just doesn't move the needle in my opinion. With my notes above, I don't see what it offers that the bikepacking crowd was asking for.
Your notes are nonsensical. I don't see why you're participating in this thread with nothing other than an axe to grind.

[makoti]

Originally Posted by Upcountry

(yes I know they have a whopping one extra gear over other brands, but lets be frank, this is a talking point rather than a feature or benefit)

Um, no.
Have you tried it?
The difference between an 11 or even 12 1x and the 13 1x is big. The jumps between gears with a 13 1x are very close to the jumps on your basic 2x and much better than either 11 or 12 1x's. The range is similar to a 2x. Having that extra cog is much more than a "talking point".

[Dave]

1x can't compete with 2x when it comes to range. Ekar is 480% maximum. My 46/30 and 10-36 SRAM AXS is 552%. My new 46/30 and 10-44 12 speed is 675%. The 30/44 is like a 36/52 1x.

It might be nice to have 10-11-12-13 like the 10-36 has, but losing the 12 allows gaining the 44 and puts a 38 where it's useable with the big ring. 10-11-13-15 isn't ideal, but for me the 12 and smaller are strictly descending gears with a 46 big ring.

Shimano 1x MTB cassettes have no 1T jumps. I guess users become accustomed to it.

[Upcountry]

Especially when there are several cheaper 1x12 and 1x13 offerings.
Huh? Let's see those several cheaper 1 x 13 options.
You can parse words if you like, I didn't state "several 13 speed offerings" but while you're there, here's a way to save even more than 15%... -https://ratiotechnology.com/ratio-up...13c-kit-guide/

-Still uses a proprietary freehub body, and starts with a 10t cog.
Wrong, any manufacturer can use this freehub body. What other freehub body would Campy use?
I'm' stating that they would potentially sell more, if the barrier to entry didn't involve a new freehub body, that isn't as available as the other two/three main offerings from manufacturers(HG, XD, XDR)... Meaning they offered a cassette that mounted to another freehub...

-Prorietary chain that you're unlikely to find in any shop.
An absurd point. Let's see the other 13 speed chains.
You're making my point for me....

-An 8% increase in gear range(which surely could've been achieved on the existing derailleur).
Wrong again, it could not be achieved with the existing derailleur.
Just like a Shimano GRX 815 "won't work" with a 36, 40, or even 42t.... I'm assuming you've gotten your hands on both the old and new Ekar to test that theory...

This just doesn't move the needle in my opinion. With my notes above, I don't see what it offers that the bikepacking crowd was asking for.
Your notes are nonsensical. I don't see why you're participating in this thread with nothing other than an axe to grind.
Because this is an online forum where we come to express our opinions... Which I've reiterated several times...

Originally Posted by makoti

The difference between an 11 or even 12 1x and the 13 1x is big. The jumps between gears with a 13 1x are very close to the jumps on your basic 2x and much better than either 11 or 12 1x's. The range is similar to a 2x. Having that extra cog is much more than a "talking point".

This is as much a result of their use case as it is the extra cog... 3T did a similar thing years ago with an 11 speed cassette, spacing the smaller cogs with tighter gaps, and then increasing towards the upper end. I get it, i like a nice smooth cadence change, but again, this isn't just a byproduct of the extra cog.

Sram: 10,11,13,15,17,19,21,24,28,32,38,44
Shimano: 10-12-14-16-18-21-24-28-32-36-40-45
Ekar: 10-11-12-13-14-15-17-19-22-26-32-38-44
3T: 9-10-11-12-13-15-17-19-22-26-32

[rain dogs]

I'm not going to get all into it because what's the point, but I can tell you the difference between a 38-42 and the new 36-48 sure is more than 8%

then the wider Q factor for bigger tire clearance etc. Makes perfect sense to me. But whatever.

[msriddle]

Campy should copy shimano and us HG? The standard?

Sir, did you just land on this planet?

Originally Posted by Upcountry

Campagnolo make it easy to be slammed...




Sure there is some selling point in "13 is more than 12", and if they could get an OEM deal, they might lure some people into a sale with that headline... But some large portion of those people who don't get into the nitty gritty technical aspects and susceptible to the sales pitch there, are also probably intrigued by electronic shifting, which is available at the same price point elsewhere...

And how is that working out for them in pioneering the way in simply adding an extra cog every few years... Their $100M revenue looks pretty paltry compared to Shimano($4B) and Sram($700M). People don't care about the first to do something, as that selling point fades away the second others do it, or when it doesn't seem warranted or isn't needed(insert Ekar here).

Similarly, why would Shimano, an industry behemoth with 4x the revenue of Sram, offer an XDR compatible wheel...? Notice Sram does indeed make HG freehub cassettes! In a way, acknowledging that Shimano(with the HG) sort of is the "standard". It would seem wise for Campagnolo to do the same, especially at this "lower price point" where an additional $100 for a freehub body furthers the gap to other options.

I don't think Campagnolo is a horrible product, or doesn't have a place in the market. I just think they need to better identify what that place is, and own it, or re-think their path towards it. There are very few "younger" riders, who absent some fond memory of a distant shiny aluminum groupset from decades ago, seek out Campagnolo. Perhaps they don't want/need this share of the market, but this newest release tells me that they are indeed seeking to gain some new ridership, and it is my opinion that they have once again missed the mark...

[vespasianus]

Are rim part of these wheels the same as fulcrum? I have found fulcrum wheels to be rock solid - albeit heavy.

[oldpotatoe]

Originally Posted by Mark McM

This is an interesting comparison. The utilitarian function of a watch is keep time, preferably with as little maintenance as possible. In this regard, Rolex is far behind electronic watches. When electronic watches started become available, Rolex realized they could not compete on cost and utility with Asian made electronic watches. So instead they shifted their focus to up-scale luxury mechanical watches made in Europe. From the outside looking in, this looks similar to Campagnolo - they also appear to be largely shifting their focus to up-scale luxury (mechanical) drivetrains made in Europe. While there will always be a niche for brands like Rolex in the watch market, I'm not sure this niche is as sustainable in the bike market.

We;l, first, Rolex DID make a quartz watch but they saw, as you pointed out, the mechanical luxury market was where they started and where their success lies.

Been sustainable so far for Campagnolo..Even in the face of the late 80s MTB debacle.

Not for you but for others above..many wax and wane about why Campagnolo is 'more like Shimano and sram'..I think the opposite is true, like Seiko...the 's' brands are all about low end OEM, and how they beat each other up every year with various 'big 4' and others bike makers...AND they wish to be 'luxury and upscale' so they make a few, in comparison, high end groups...

Same as why Toyota, Nissan, Honda and even Kia have 'luxury brands' to try to compete with M-B, Audi and others, while trying to sell tons of Corollas, Sentras and Civics to the masses.

So, the two S brands fight it out at the OEM marketplace but then compete with Campagnolo to try to make higher/hoghest end groups...But looking at something like Dura-Ace..gee, considering the materials and whizbangery....it is more like Ultegra that the other way around whereas SR is SR..no doubt about it.

So, once again, Campagnolo is NOT Shimano or sram and doesn't want to be. Just like Rolex isn't Seiko or Citizen or Casio and don't want to be.

[KonaSS]

Originally Posted by oldpotatoe

But looking at something like Dura-Ace..gee, considering the materials and whizbangery....it is more like Ultegra that the other way around whereas SR is SR..no doubt about it.

You should be on their marketing team. A lotta words that sound good, but no one REALLY knows what that means.

Anyway, myself and I think alot of people wish Campy no ill will. In fact, we want them to succeed and provide a true 3rd choice across the spectrum of groups. Sometimes it is hard to follow their strategy. There is all this talk about them positioning themselves as luxury brand and then they release this lower end group. Which is great but doesn't fit that narrative. So it is confusing.

If it is a true luxury high end strategy, I see that as a shrink to greatness strategy (at least as far as market share). This may continue to provide bottom line returns, but it won't be the Campagnolo that many grew up with.

[fignon's barber]

Originally Posted by KonaSS

You should be on their marketing team. A lotta words that sound good, but no one REALLY knows what that means.

Anyway, myself and I think alot of people wish Campy no ill will. In fact, we want them to succeed and provide a true 3rd choice across the spectrum of groups. Sometimes it is hard to follow their strategy. There is all this talk about them positioning themselves as luxury brand and then they release this lower end group. Which is great but doesn't fit that narrative. So it is confusing.

If it is a true luxury high end strategy, I see that as a shrink to greatness strategy (at least as far as market share). This may continue to provide bottom line returns, but it won't be the Campagnolo that many grew up with.

I've never seen anything from Campagnolo stating a desire to be a luxury brand. More along the lines of performance,quality, tech. Regardless, it's kind of funny people questioning the marketing expertise of a company that anually sells out of everything they make.

[Mark McM]

Originally Posted by fignon's barber

I've never seen anything from Campagnolo stating a desire to be a luxury brand.

None of the other major component brands has released a $5,500 drivetrain (and that price doesn't even include a power meter).

[nalax]

Funny how this thread starts out about a lower priced Ekar group and a new Zonda disc wheelset changes into Rolex vs $5000 groups. Seems to me that Campy might be trying to make Ekar more affordable...but I could be wrong according to...

Anyway I've ridden my old Ekar group in this warm midwestern winter and it is still working great. Not much to complain about except for the expensive chain C-links which are one time use.

[KonaSS]

Originally Posted by fignon's barber

Regardless, it's kind of funny people questioning the marketing expertise of a company that anually sells out of everything they make.

People keep quoting this too. I find it interesting. It isn't the worst thing that could happen to a business, but it also isn't a sign of a well run business if they truly are running out of product each year.