C-Record Pista: ISO, JIS, or something different? (Caution: bike bling content)

[mt2u77]

Ok, I’m sometimes attracted to shiny objects and I couldn’t pass up a set of C-Record Pista cranks at a recent swap meet. So sexy.


Anyway, now I need to get a bottom bracket—seems easy enough, just spring for a new Record Pista 111mm bb. Errrr, not so fast.

A little reading revealed Campagnolo changed from “old Campy” to ISO tapers in 1994. C-Record Pista apparently ran thru ‘95, so I probably need the old Campy taper, but with 1 year overlap, is there any chance it could be ISO?. Then I read a comment that the old Pista taper was slightly different than that of other Campy spindles and a shop was seeing a bunch of cracked crank arms from people installing them on road series spindles. Once they switched to Pista spindles— no issues. Any truth to this unique Pista taper thing? If so, it seems my only option is to find an old stock C-Record Pista bb— probably a rare find— but I have my doubts about it being true. If not, what are my options for a bb? Anything modern that will work? JIS?

(And here I thought BB standard issues were a new thing.)


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[zmudshark]

I happen to have a vintage Italian threaded 111mm Record SPc bottom bracket in excellent condition, if that’s what you need.

[mt2u77]

Thanks zmud, but I need BSA 68mm— plenty of Italian stuff floating around the swap meets. Almost makes me want to find an Italian frame just because the sweet old Campy parts are in abundance. I actually picked up a NOS symmetrical 111mm 70 SS spindle because it was only a buck. Didn’t think I’d have a use for it, but it actually might work for this project with English cups and a 1mm spacer on each end.


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[oldpotatoe]

Originally Posted by mt2u77

Ok, I’m sometimes attracted to shiny objects and I couldn’t pass up a set of C-Record Pista cranks at a recent swap meet. So sexy.


Anyway, now I need to get a bottom bracket—seems easy enough, just spring for a new Record Pista 111mm bb. Errrr, not so fast.

A little reading revealed Campagnolo changed from “old Campy” to ISO tapers in 1994. C-Record Pista apparently ran thru ‘95, so I probably need the old Campy taper, but with 1 year overlap, is there any chance it could be ISO?. Then I read a comment that the old Pista taper was slightly different than that of other Campy spindles and a shop was seeing a bunch of cracked crank arms from people installing them on road series spindles. Once they switched to Pista spindles— no issues. Any truth to this unique Pista taper thing? If so, it seems my only option is to find an old stock C-Record Pista bb— probably a rare find— but I have my doubts about it being true. If not, what are my options for a bb? Anything modern that will work? JIS?

(And here I thought BB standard issues were a new thing.)


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Not true, all the overlap, pista BB, etc..The BB from late 80s(Intro of CRecord) thru 1994 and then after that, the BB with SPc on it..'P', Pista, 'C', Corsa..7/32 balls and 111mm and ISO. No such animal as a true 'pista' BB in that 1990s era. 1998, there is a triple bearing, seal-less 111 cart bearing but the 68 or 70-SPc still is the pista BB of choice. NOT JIS is any way. There was somw spindle length changes, etc, but that happened in 1978.

What will work? a 111mm BB from 1985ish thru 1997 or so, cup and ball, marked 68-SPc. A triple bearing 111mm 'pista' BB(1996-7 thru today) or a Centaur 111mm BB still available.

I think I have one..I'll check.

[mt2u77]

Originally Posted by oldpotatoe

Not true, all the overlap, pista BB, etc..The BB from late 80s(Intro of CRecord) thru 1994 and then after that, the BB with SPc on it..'P', Pista, 'C', Corsa..7/32 balls and 111mm and ISO. No such animal as a true 'pista' BB in that 1990s era. 1998, there is a triple bearing, seal-less 111 cart bearing but the 68 or 70-SPc still is the pista BB of choice. NOT JIS is any way. There was somw spindle length changes, etc, but that happened in 1978.

What will work? a 111mm BB from 1985ish thru 1997 or so, cup and ball, marked 68-SPc. A triple bearing 111mm 'pista' BB(1996-7 thru today) or a Centaur 111mm BB still available.

I think I have one..I'll check.

Thanks. I know the wise thing is to just do whatever Old Potatoe tells me to do, but I'm still a little confused. If both an '85-'97 111mm SPc and a '96-current Record Pista or Centaur 111mm will work, with no difference in the chainline, then the tapers must be the same. There seems to be a lot of old message board chatter, references to Sutherland's, etc. indicating there was a general Campagnolo change to the taper length in 94. Is that false (i.e. there was no change in 94)? Or maybe it was only certain models, in which case it's even more confusing.

The 68-SPc definitely sounds like the "proper" choice, so I'm interested if you have one, but the Centaur 111 is sealed and I'm guessing cheaper. I plan to ride this bike both outside and on the track, so I'm leaning sealed. Let me know if you have one of those too, because if I go that route, I'd rather give OP the business for the help.

[oldpotatoe]

Originally Posted by mt2u77

Thanks. I know the wise thing is to just do whatever Old Potatoe tells me to do, but I'm still a little confused. If both an '85-'97 111mm SPc and a '96-current Record Pista or Centaur 111mm will work, with no difference in the chainline, then the tapers must be the same. There seems to be a lot of old message board chatter, references to Sutherland's, etc. indicating there was a general Campagnolo change to the taper length in 94. Is that false (i.e. there was no change in 94)? Or maybe it was only certain models, in which case it's even more confusing.

The 68-SPc definitely sounds like the "proper" choice, so I'm interested if you have one, but the Centaur 111 is sealed and I'm guessing cheaper. I plan to ride this bike both outside and on the track, so I'm leaning sealed. Let me know if you have one of those too, because if I go that route, I'd rather give OP the business for the help.

My 5th edition of Sutherlands mentions NO taper change in 1994. It mentions that if the bearing ball size, and distance between races are the same, you can swapBB axles..Not sure where the message board chatter came from..
BUT I was deeply into bicycles starting in the SuperRecord era(1985)..and was around during CRecord intro..thru all the Campag MTB shenanigans. I've seen and worked on more than a few Pista bikes.
Centaur cheaper than my SPc..probably....

[oldpotatoe]

Here it is...one set of bearings is in a fiber cage, the other in metal but the (7/32) bearing balls are new(grade 25)...I should note that the BB part number for 1994 thru 1997, is the same..BB-01RE(Far superior Italian threading) and BB-03RE(english)..1996, the loose ball became noted as 'Pista' BB..

Completed Ebay lists..CRecord like above anywhere from about $60 to $250(NOS)..Centaur, interestingly enough, the same about $60-$100..

SO..$75, mailed via USPS, paypal..friends and family.

cp51errc@gmail.com for PP

[cribbit]

Somewhat related question - if you have a crank that's been scratched to **** so you don't know the model, how do you tell whether it's ISO or JIS?

[El Chaba]

WRT a running "taper change"...The whole ISO vs. JIS taper issue is a little misleading. It seems to be mostly driven by a desire for things to fit into neat categories and the bicycle industry just doesn't have that much respect for standards. I always think that the safest thing is to not mismatch brands or even time periods of cranks/bbs. For $75 I would jump on that high quality, matching BB from Old Potatoe

[11.4]

This whole issue has been flogged to death, especially among the fixie forums.

After actually measuring a couple hundred of them, the actual rate of taper is the same for all the available square splines. That means that the only difference is whether the crank arm will go on too far, or not enough. These tapers were, for a very long time, cut practically by hand, so they varied quite extensively and would just get measured against a go-no-go gauge after milling. You want the crank arm to seat fully on the taper -- if it barely lands the crank arm spline will deform over time and may not seat evenly, giving the appearance of a warped chainring, and if it seats too far, the crank arm bolt won't hold it securely in place so it'll have a bit of wiggle and the taper will also wear prematurely. In most cases, you have enough room to use either taper and get away with it.

When the Japanese implemented the JIS taper specs for crank arms, they based it on the Campy tapers of the 151 BCD era. The tapers got renamed over the years as more ISO and metrology freaks got into the picture, but the tapers continued to have the same variability until relatively recently and were pretty hard to pin down. As a result, there were plenty of stories about crank arms not fitting, or wearing prematurely. I've never heard of a mismatch causing a cracked crank arm, though early (through C-record) crank arms had a fairly high chronic breakage rate (at the pedal thread, at the neck of the crank arm, and at the spline, though the basic structure of the spline area made the pedal axle hole breakage much more common than spline breakage.

Today I'd recommend getting the correct JIS or ISO crank arm spline taper just to get the right chainline and to avoid hassles during a build -- clearances between chain stay and chainring have gotten really tight over the years and you only have a few millimeters or so to play with on many frames and with many newer front derailleurs. But in the vintage you're talking about here, you can run into some variability in any combination but shouldn't overall have to worry too much, as Spud said. He has a great deal on a bottom bracket that will fit, so I'd grab it. The alternative would be a Phil Wood, which gives some precision chainline adjustments along with great durability. Since you seem to be looking for vintage product, no better place to buy it than from Spud.

[muz]

Originally Posted by cribbit

Somewhat related question - if you have a crank that's been scratched to **** so you don't know the model, how do you tell whether it's ISO or JIS?

If you're talking about Pista cranksets, there were only two models after the original (1960s ?) Record: C-Record and the current Record. They have a subtly different spider shape. For all practical purposes, you can treat them the same. I have been running my C-Record cranks with modern Pista cartridge BB.