Moots Carbon Gravel E-bike!

[lorenbike]

If someone needs an ebike for a physical reason or age, there's no way they can ride that much saddle to bar drop like the link shows.

Aside from price, this actually looks like it would be fun with flat bars and more upright geo.

[charliedid]

Originally Posted by tomato coupe

How is it legal for a company to sell a product that a few people on an internet forum don't want to buy? Can't this be outlawed?

I can't believe they never dropped by and took a poll here to gauge interest before investing in such madness!

I'm calling my state representative first thing in the morning...

[Wakatel_Luum]

Just another turd in the pool.

Screenshot 2023-09-21 at 11.54.41 am by Bon Voyage, on Flickr

[buddybikes]

Originally Posted by lorenbike

If someone needs an ebike for a physical reason or age, there's no way they can ride that much saddle to bar drop like the link shows.

Aside from price, this actually looks like it would be fun with flat bars and more upright geo.

this is sooo true. reason I had to go custom. us old farts have some money, market to us

[Tim Porter]

I'll be 71 in about 6 weeks. My last two rides may be illustrative or relevant to this discussion. The first of these two rides was on the FiftyOne all carbon road bike--about 45 miles. Felt fantastic, did about 2500 ft of climbing--really really enjoyed the whole package. 12 Spd Di2, carbon wheels, Rally pedals. Beautiful bike.



I don't recover as quickly as I did when I started racing over 50 years ago. So my next ride was on this:



My old knees take quite awhile to warm up and the Trek has shown me an e-bike benefit I would not have thought of, by giving a tiny bit of boost as you start to pedal. I was able to do a ride of just a bit less mileage at a similar speed, giving me a recovery ride that was a real ride. You do have to pedal these things. I used the 2nd of 3 power levels a few times to get up a km of climbing at about 7%, a climb that would be tougher on a conventional bike (but which I had done on that prior ride). I used 39% of my TQ motor's capacity in the around 1 hour 40 minutes. Same Di2 12 speed, carbon wheels (tubeless!), Rally pedals--this thing has batteries for its batteries.

I do not think the Trek is nearly as beautiful as the FiftyOne, nor as beautiful as my Kirks or my Richard Sachs, etc., etc. But it rides amazingly well as a bike (as Teleguy has noted). Perhaps because of my age I'm a little more understanding of Moots in this case, and I think some of the "purists" here need to open their minds a little, imho. Moots may hit the part of the market that I happen to inhabit (retired, solvent, serious about riding as long as I can). And the Trek is a hoot to ride. Tim

[AngryScientist]

I dont like how threads here wind up devolving into an us against them, black and white, for us or against us mentality.

I think it's fair for some to have an opinion that the storied brand of Moots outsourcing an offshore made carbon ebike is a bummer and not have it be mistaken for the same group of people thinking ebikes are not a valid new bike category.

This is a bike discussion forum, let's feel free to discuss bike related matters in good faith, without jumping to conclusions about unspoken motives.

[jimoots]

Originally Posted by AngryScientist

I dont like how threads here wind up devolving into an us against them, black and white, for us or against us mentality.

I think it's fair for some to have an opinion that the storied brand of Moots outsourcing an offshore made carbon ebike is a bummer be mistaken for the same group of people thinking ebikes are not a valid new bike category.

This is a bike discussion forum, let's feel free to discuss bike related matters in good faith, without jumping to conclusions about unspoken motives.

Yeah that's really it for me. If this was a titanium or even just MUSA carbon frame it would make more sense... and be novel and dare I say it - cool.

The fact its Chinese and carbon is left field for the image they've built and the meme accounts are having a field day. I don't think it's exaggerating to say they've actually done damage to their brand with this launch.

[tomato coupe]

Originally Posted by lorenbike

If someone needs an ebike for a physical reason or age, there's no way they can ride that much saddle to bar drop like the link shows.

I know several people with e-bikes set up like that. They need the boost to deal with heart conditions, but their bike fit is basically the same as it was years before they went to an e-bike.

[Clean39T]

People with meme accounts aren’t buying $13k Moots Ti bikes..or class-leading e-bikes — they’re just giving hot-takes to get clicks and then they’ll be on to the next trendy thing to hate.

I think this bike is a positive for their brand. It shows they want to grow and be relevant. It’s a well-designed bike, made by people who know how to make high quality frames every bit as much as the folks welding in Steamboat Springs. It’s high performance oriented and actually is more affordable than most of their titanium offerings.

If you actually go to their site, they answer why they didn’t make it out of titanium. And as far as it being MUSA, who is going to produce that? The Lemond venture in TN seems stalled and Allied have their own thing going, which, even if they had spare production capacity, doesn’t involve the complex design and layup this e-bike calls for.. So, Pursuit?

Sorry to bring rationality to a witch-hunt

[d_douglas]

To be really superficial, your trek looks really nice and I think that Moots looks really ugly. I am sure they both ride great, but I would like to ride the Trek more and I am a Moots fan!

Originally Posted by Tim Porter

I'll be 71 in about 6 weeks. My last two rides may be illustrative or relevant to this discussion. The first of these two rides was on the FiftyOne all carbon road bike--about 45 miles. Felt fantastic, did about 2500 ft of climbing--really really enjoyed the whole package. 12 Spd Di2, carbon wheels, Rally pedals. Beautiful bike.



I don't recover as quickly as I did when I started racing over 50 years ago. So my next ride was on this:



My old knees take quite awhile to warm up and the Trek has shown me an e-bike benefit I would not have thought of, by giving a tiny bit of boost as you start to pedal. I was able to do a ride of just a bit less mileage at a similar speed, giving me a recovery ride that was a real ride. You do have to pedal these things. I used the 2nd of 3 power levels a few times to get up a km of climbing at about 7%, a climb that would be tougher on a conventional bike (but which I had done on that prior ride). I used 39% of my TQ motor's capacity in the around 1 hour 40 minutes. Same Di2 12 speed, carbon wheels (tubeless!), Rally pedals--this thing has batteries for its batteries.

I do not think the Trek is nearly as beautiful as the FiftyOne, nor as beautiful as my Kirks or my Richard Sachs, etc., etc. But it rides amazingly well as a bike (as Teleguy has noted). Perhaps because of my age I'm a little more understanding of Moots in this case, and I think some of the "purists" here need to open their minds a little, imho. Moots may hit the part of the market that I happen to inhabit (retired, solvent, serious about riding as long as I can). And the Trek is a hoot to ride. Tim

[jimoots]

Originally Posted by Clean39T

People with meme accounts aren’t buying $13k Moots Ti bikes..or class-leading e-bikes — they’re just giving hot-takes to get clicks and then they’ll be on to the next trendy thing to hate.

You realise whether or not the person who posts a meme can afford a Moots is irrelevant if they have tens of thousands of followers who repost and share the meme, right?

I get you might not use the internet or social media in that way, that's fine, whatever, horses for courses.

But to reflexively say 'oh that guy who made the meme can't afford a Moots' is a bizarre hot take in itself.

Originally Posted by Clean39T

I think this bike is a positive for their brand. It shows they want to grow and be relevant. It’s a well-designed bike, made by people who know how to make high quality frames every bit as much as the folks welding in Steamboat Springs. It’s high performance oriented and actually is more affordable than most of their titanium offerings.

Sure, that's an opinion you're entitled to have. But other people have other opinions on this too.

Originally Posted by Clean39T

If you actually go to their site, they answer why they didn’t make it out of titanium.

Yeah I did that, read through the FAQ. The FAQ reads like a series of points intended to justify why they've done something. Which of course makes sense, they're trying to sell something they've done. But it's not unbiased, it's sales guff.

Could they have done it with ti? Heck I'm not an expert. Maybe they couldn't of. I'm simply saying it would've been unique. And it would've been cool. It would've been worth doing and in line with everything else they do.

Originally Posted by Clean39T

And as far as it being MUSA, who is going to produce that? The Lemond venture in TN seems stalled and Allied have their own thing going, which, even if they had spare production capacity, doesn’t involve the complex design and layup this e-bike calls for.. So, Pursuit?

Why wouldn't Moots produce it?

If they can't produce it why are they making it?

And before you say 'commercial reality'... why aren't they making their ti frames in the east? It would be far cheaper to do that. They'd make heaps more money.

Much more sensible commercially.

Or maybe there's value in brand, marketing and provenance.

Originally Posted by Clean39T

Sorry to bring rationality to a witch-hunt

I don't think you did that, you just posted a series of hot takes/opinions which you assume to be correct. And of course you assumed someone with an opposing opinion hadn't considered your points.

And don't get me wrong. My opinion is just that, an opinion. But to think your opinion is somehow more rational or well thought out is a bit far.

Like Angry says, I don't know why this has to be so tribal. It doensn't feel controversial or witch hunty to me to say "I feel a bit weird about Moots making a frame in China and they've potentially damaged their brand".

[nighthawk]

Just personal preference, not sound business advice, but I’d rather see Moots put effort into a bike that more people can afford to pedal than a bike that people don’t need to pedal.

[TonyG]

Nice bikes!

Originally Posted by tim porter

i'll be 71 in about 6 weeks. My last two rides may be illustrative or relevant to this discussion. The first of these two rides was on the fiftyone all carbon road bike--about 45 miles. Felt fantastic, did about 2500 ft of climbing--really really enjoyed the whole package. 12 spd di2, carbon wheels, rally pedals. Beautiful bike.



i don't recover as quickly as i did when i started racing over 50 years ago. So my next ride was on this:



my old knees take quite awhile to warm up and the trek has shown me an e-bike benefit i would not have thought of, by giving a tiny bit of boost as you start to pedal. I was able to do a ride of just a bit less mileage at a similar speed, giving me a recovery ride that was a real ride. You do have to pedal these things. I used the 2nd of 3 power levels a few times to get up a km of climbing at about 7%, a climb that would be tougher on a conventional bike (but which i had done on that prior ride). I used 39% of my tq motor's capacity in the around 1 hour 40 minutes. Same di2 12 speed, carbon wheels (tubeless!), rally pedals--this thing has batteries for its batteries.

I do not think the trek is nearly as beautiful as the fiftyone, nor as beautiful as my kirks or my richard sachs, etc., etc. But it rides amazingly well as a bike (as teleguy has noted). Perhaps because of my age i'm a little more understanding of moots in this case, and i think some of the "purists" here need to open their minds a little, imho. Moots may hit the part of the market that i happen to inhabit (retired, solvent, serious about riding as long as i can). And the trek is a hoot to ride. Tim

[Clean39T]

@jimoots - wasn’t intending anything personal..

On the meme makers..If James Huang or Ben Delaney reviewed the bike and said the build quality was awful, that I’d pay attention to. But generally if someone doesn’t have something constructive to bring to a conversation, I lose interest in listening to them pretty quickly.

The simple truth is that an e-bike made from titanium would be an overly complicated and expensive eyesore if mid-drive and/or suffer in its performance by being a hub-drive model, if they went that way to hit a traditionalist aesthetic. Carbon is the only material that makes sense for the application. And partnering with an existing factory with the knowledge to make the product is just good business. We’re not talking lugged carbon here - it’s complex stuff that requires serious tooling. You don’t just stick a toe in that water. It’d take them years to build the capability in-house. Therefore, what they did with this makes a lot of sense to me - and after digging in to the details, I can’t find anything of substance to fault them for. It looks great, has a smart spec, and pulls in details that tie in its branding.

End of the day, Moots obviously believe they have a potential clientele that appreciates the brand, maybe is a current or former owner of one of their titanium bikes, and needs the power assist of an e-bike to enjoy being on two wheels. I wish them well. Not sure why anyone wouldn’t..?

[jimoots]

Originally Posted by Clean39T

@jimoots - wasn’t intending anything personal..

On the meme makers..If James Huang or Ben Delaney reviewed the bike and said the build quality was awful, that I’d pay attention to. But generally if someone doesn’t have something constructive to bring to a conversation, I lose interest in listening to them pretty quickly.

The simple truth is that an e-bike made from titanium would be an overly complicated and expensive eyesore if mid-drive and/or suffer in its performance by being a hub-drive model, if they went that way to hit a traditionalist aesthetic. Carbon is the only material that makes sense for the application. And partnering with an existing factory with the knowledge to make the product is just good business. We’re not talking lugged carbon here - it’s complex stuff that requires serious tooling. You don’t just stick a toe in that water. It’d take them years to build the capability in-house. Therefore, what they did with this makes a lot of sense to me - and after digging in to the details, I can’t find anything of substance to fault them for. It looks great, has a smart spec, and pulls in details that tie in its branding.

End of the day, Moots obviously believe they have a potential clientele that appreciates the brand, maybe is a current or former owner of one of their titanium bikes, and needs the power assist of an e-bike to enjoy being on two wheels. I wish them well. Not sure why anyone wouldn’t..?

On queue:

“It seems like it’ll be a very good carbon fiber e-gravel bike, but nothing about it says “Moots” to me.” -James Huang

https://escapecollective.com/moots-express-e-bike/

He spends considerable time making similar comments to what I have above.

For me this isn’t about wishing them well or otherwise, it is a bit like being unfortunate enough to be in the presence of a slow moving car crash.