Moots new model: VAMOOTS 33

[merckxman]

"WHAT IS IT?
Everyday, any day road bike with capacity to hold up to a 38c tire.

WHO IT IS FOR?
Road riders and ultra distance event participants."
https://moots.com/bikes/road/vamoots...gVWY%3D.UHWWhb

It's straight gauge 3/2.5. Don't like the 3D printed flat mount brake mount.

[Soloist604]

Wow. Great looking bike.

But...not a fan of the 3D printed flat mount either. Why the move to 3D printing all of a sudden? Is there an added benefit?

Also, I'm so confused by the marketing and the phrase "Everyday, any day road bike". Isn't this basically an all road frameset with a more slack geometry?

[fa63]

$7.5K with SRAM Rival AXS, and basic aluminum wheels and cockpit? And then you have to pay $300 for shipping...

You can buy a Litespeed Arenberg with 105 Di2 and similar build for $3.8K.

[CNY rider]

The head tube/steerer/stem junction is immediately eye catching and not at all in a good way.

[texbike]

I like it - clean and simple styling. However, it is pricey compared to other similar US-made, quasi-production options like Litespeed, Merlin, and definitely Lynskey.

Texbike

[nmrt]

It's not only that Mootses are increasing prices. The worse thing is that the pricing ricochets across the market. Then, the guys making their Ti bikes in China start asking $3000 or thereabouts for their framesets. It is this jump in price that irks me.

But what is even worse is that the Chinese companies then compare the prices of their bikes to those made in the USA or made in China by US companies, then the Chinese companies jack up their prices.

For example, Winspace -- there is no reason in my mind, based on labor costs in China, that a Chinese company that makes it's bike in China is asking that a made in China Winspace frame should cost $2000!!!

But when you see a $6K Moots frame, or a $5500 Spesh or a Factor frame, one can see that a $2K Winspace is a "deal".

Sorry for the thread drift. I have nothing to say about the Moots except that they need to add a little "dash of flair" in their design. The 1990s look is getting old.

Originally Posted by fa63

$7.5K with SRAM Rival AXS, and basic aluminum wheels and cockpit? And then you have to pay $300 for shipping...

You can buy a Litespeed Arenberg with 105 Di2 and similar build for $3.8K.

[glepore]

Originally Posted by nmrt

But what is even worse is that the Chinese companies then compare the prices of their bikes to those made in the USA or made in China by US companies, then the Chinese companies jack up their prices.

For example, Winspace -- there is no reason in my mind, based on labor costs in China, that a Chinese company that makes it's bike in China is asking that a made in China Winspace frame should cost $2000!!!

So when Chinese companies start to market bikes direct to consumer made to western standards at bargain prices, they suck. And if they market cheap bikes of questionable q/c they suck. This is xenophobia.

"Made in China by US companies" is somehow better than made in China? C'mon man.

Sorry about the drift. A 7k Moots is probably more fairly priced than a 7k Atheos. And still you're paying a premium for the Moots label cache.

[fa63]

Pricing is subjective, but you can currently buy a new Aethos with Ultegra Di2 and carbon wheels for $6K.

Originally Posted by glepore

A 7k Moots is probably more fairly priced than a 7k Atheos.

[sparky33]

Originally Posted by fa63

Pricing is subjective, but you can currently buy a new Aethos with Ultegra Di2 and carbon wheels for $6K.

Originally Posted by CNY rider

The head tube/steerer/stem junction is immediately eye catching and not at all in a good way.

Knowing how remarkable Moots bikes ride, I can almost forgive the challenged aesthetics. Though plenty of makers show that it is possible to produce a more handsome ti bike, and so it is reasonable to expect a nice(r) looking bike at the Moots price point.

It's also a tough sell given the equally amazing carbon bikes you can buy for so much less.

[jimoots]

Originally Posted by nmrt

<snip>

But what is even worse is that the Chinese companies then compare the prices of their bikes to those made in the USA or made in China by US companies, then the Chinese companies jack up their prices.

For example, Winspace -- there is no reason in my mind, based on labor costs in China, that a Chinese company that makes it's bike in China is asking that a made in China Winspace frame should cost $2000!!!

</snip>.

Originally Posted by glepore

So when Chinese companies start to market bikes direct to consumer made to western standards at bargain prices, they suck. And if they market cheap bikes of questionable q/c they suck. This is xenophobia.

"Made in China by US companies" is somehow better than made in China? C'mon man.

Giving benefit of the doubt on xenophobia and just moving to what's actually happening... Winspace is putting loads and loads of money into marketing. Heaps of paid advertising. Lots of conti teams running their stuff. Throw in legitimate research and development.

That all has to come from somewhere.

My understanding is also that Winspace do not own their own facilities (very few direct to consumer Chinese companies own their facilities), so they are likely paying more than the 'big guys' pay for their frames made in China and then selling at a lower price.

And again apologies for the drift. Cool Moots, it irks me that it looks so unfinished... black finishing kit with a million ti spacers, saddle angle looks like its kicked up, cheap wheels... but hey, the bike isn't aimed at me.

[nmrt]

No xenophobia intended whatsoever.
I see that you are talking about quality of bike frames. I made no mention of frame quality nor did I imply any. Maybe the Chinese ones are better, maybe not. That comparison is not relevant and is not the one I am making.

With the lower labor costs in China, the 2000 USD for a Winspace frame just makes me "raise my eyebrow'. I feel that it should be cheaper.

Again, not making any comparisons of quality of the frame. Either now or in my previous post.

Originally Posted by glepore

So when Chinese companies start to market bikes direct to consumer made to western standards at bargain prices, they suck. And if they market cheap bikes of questionable q/c they suck. This is xenophobia.

"Made in China by US companies" is somehow better than made in China? C'mon man.

Sorry about the drift. A 7k Moots is probably more fairly priced than a 7k Atheos. And still you're paying a premium for the Moots label cache.

[glepore]

Originally Posted by nmrt

No xenophobia intended whatsoever.
I see that you are talking about quality of bike frames. I made no mention of frame quality nor did I imply any. Maybe the Chinese ones are better, maybe not. That comparison is not relevant and is not the one I am making.

With the lower labor costs in China, the 2000 USD for a Winspace frame just makes me "raise my eyebrow'. I feel that it should be cheaper.

Again, not making any comparisons of quality of the frame. Either now or in my previous post.

Fair enough.

A Supersix frame is $4,500, a Tarmac $3500. So roughly 50% or so cheaper...and Winspace sources really nice stuff.

Back to the Moots. They've always had a "premium" price for Mr Moots etc. And the bikes were never really more from an looks standpoint than many other ti brands, as nmrt points out. There may be something to the ride, but straight gauge ti is pretty much straight gauge ti, particularly when its just round.

[Soloist604]

With the lower labor costs in China, the 2000 USD for a Winspace frame just makes me "raise my eyebrow'. I feel that it should be cheaper.

Interesting debate - how then do you put a value on custom, high end, boutique brands from the far east like, for example, Ioklin (beautiful steel from Taiwan)? On this basis shouldn't frames made in certain European countries (with lower labor costs) also theoretically be cheaper? The bike business is as much about marketing as most other consumer goods...

[p nut]

Hard pass for me. I usually like Moots stuff but this just doesn’t do it for me. Especially given the price point.

Originally Posted by glepore

So when Chinese companies start to market bikes direct to consumer made to western standards at bargain prices, they suck. And if they market cheap bikes of questionable q/c they suck. This is xenophobia.

"Made in China by US companies" is somehow better than made in China? C'mon man.

Sorry about the drift. A 7k Moots is probably more fairly priced than a 7k Atheos. And still you're paying a premium for the Moots label cache.

I don’t get it, either. Too many times on here, I’ve heard “Asian crap sucks.”
Honestly, I’ve had more issues with MUSA frames than ones made in Asia (albeit very small issues).
My buying decision is based on fit and features. Country of origin is way down at the bottom of the list.

[fourflys]

Originally Posted by fa63

You can buy a Litespeed Arenberg with 105 Di2 and similar build for $3.8K.

so tempted by one of these.. at for the frameset as I'd probably strip off the groupset off my Revolt and use that..