Deciding between two DT swiss aluminium rims

[robertbb]

Analysis paralysis, help needed.

I've got some DT 350 Centrelock hubs (28h/28h) and looking for a tubeless DT rim to use with them.

(Yes I know there's Easton, and Hed, and Kinlin, and, and, and... so please don't go there. I am looking at DT swiss rims because I can get them far more easily).

My riding is 65% paved tarmac, 35% smooth champagne gravel (think rail trails) and the very occasional rougher gravel section.

I weigh 70kg, the bike would vary between 8-11kg depending on load carried.

DT RR421: Assymetric. 20mm internal. 24mm external. 21mm height.
DT RR481: Symmetric. 22mm internal. 26mm external. 25mm height.

Smallest tyre I will run will be a 30mm. Largest will be a 35-38mm. Though there mayyyy be a chance I will ride a 40-42 in the future (currently no bike in my stable with clearance for that).

Which rim and why? Granted the RR481 has slightly more modern dimensions but would the RR421 build into a better wheel considering the asymmetric profile?

Bonus question: DT aerolites x28. Sufficient? I went with the extra 4 holes per hub after reading something from November Dave (and others similar) basically saying never rely on spoke gauge to do what spoke count should be doing. I think for my weight and riding style, something like an Aero Comp would be overkill but open to suggestions (e.g. Aero Comp rear drive side? Does this depend on which rim I choose?)

Thanks!

[Peter P.]

Asymmetric rims for the win!

I have built many with O/C rear rims; they last longer and flex less laterally.

I'd also stick to round spokes and brass nipples.

Aero spokes reduce that lateral stiffness and any gains are marginal.

Brass nipples because they won't gall or crack like aluminum nipples.

[robertbb]

Originally Posted by Peter P.

Asymmetric rims for the win!

I have built many with O/C rear rims; they last longer and flex less laterally.

I'd also stick to round spokes and brass nipples.

Aero spokes reduce that lateral stiffness and any gains are marginal.

Brass nipples because they won't gall or crack like aluminum nipples.

It'd be a no-brainer if I could get the asymmetric rim with the RR481 dimensions. I'm just concerned that a 20mm inner width (nor a 22mm outer width) wide enough for where bikes and tyres are going...

[Xrslug]

Given your use case, I’d go with the wider internal width rims. But I would also ping member Peter Chisholm (OldPotatoe) for his advice as I know he builds with DT rims (I am a happy customer):
https://forums.thepaceline.net/member.php?u=28701

[coffeecherrypie]

Originally Posted by robertbb

It'd be a no-brainer if I could get the asymmetric rim with the RR481 dimensions. I'm just concerned that a 20mm inner width (nor a 22mm outer width) wide enough for where bikes and tyres are going...

Just a data point for you, on my gravel bike I run 38 mm tires on A23s which have an internal rim width of 18mm and it’s fine

[Wunder]

Originally Posted by coffeecherrypie

Just a data point for you, on my gravel bike I run 38 mm tires on A23s which have an internal rim width of 18mm and it’s fine

20mm internal also isn’t exactly narrow. It’s not crazy wide but for rim brake alloy it’s about as wide as it ever got (HED+ are 21), yes I know discs can go wider. 20 or even 18 can certainly support a 30-40mm tire well.

On the asymmetric bit I have more experience with rim but I thought their value was reduced with disc brakes. A disc rear has much less difference between the two flange widths as you now have a rotor on the NDS. I thought for disc wheels you actually are more likely to use an assym up front and use a symmetric rear (the opposite of how they were used for rim brake wheels).

What are the rim weights?

[Mark McM]

Originally Posted by Wunder

On the asymmetric bit I have more experience with rim but I thought their value was reduced with disc brakes. A disc rear has much less difference between the two flange widths as you now have a rotor on the NDS. I thought for disc wheels you actually are more likely to use an assym up front and use a symmetric rear (the opposite of how they were used for rim brake wheels)

Modern rear disc brake rear wheels (135mm overlocknut or 142mm Thru-axle) still have a lot of dish, and still benefit from offset spoke hole rims, but as you say, not as much as rim brake wheels did. Fortunately, offset spoke holes are more common for disc brakes wheels than they were for rim brake wheels - with disc brakes manufacturers can make a single offset spoke hole rim that can be used for front or rear, whereas with rim brakes manufacturers had to make separate non-offset rims for front and offset rims for the rear.

[Mark McM]

I agree with most of what most of OldPotatoe says. The difference in weight (430 grams vs. 485 grams) is quite a bit, in terms of rim robustness. All else equal, a wider and deeper rim will also be be more robust. Also as OldPotatoe says, offset spoke holes on dished wheels do increase reliability, all else being equal. However, 28 spokes isn't a lot for a 430 gram, fairly shallow aluminum rim. Despite not having offset spoke holes, the deeper, heavier rims might make for slightly tougher wheels. A rider who rides "light" may be able to get away with the lighter rims, but a rider who is a "wheel wrecker" would probably want the heavier rims.

[robertbb]

Originally Posted by coffeecherrypie

Just a data point for you, on my gravel bike I run 38 mm tires on A23s which have an internal rim width of 18mm and it’s fine

Do you find that they bulb too much? I know it'll work but I guess tyres perform best when the shape is correct for the tread. I don't care about aero.

[coffeecherrypie]

Originally Posted by robertbb

Do you find that they bulb too much? I know it'll work but I guess tyres perform best when the shape is correct for the tread. I don't care about aero.

I can't say that it looks (or feels) particularly bulby to me, to have 38s on 18mm internal width.

[robertbb]

Thanks everyone for your inputs and experiences - I've decided to go with the RR421.

A question on spokes choice. Since the RR421 rim is lighter and has a smaller profile than the RR481 (and therefore likely less stiff) should I be choosing aero comp spokes all around?

I had considered going with aero comp / aero lite combo if I'd chosen the RR481, but with the asymmetrical RR421 rim I'm guessing that's not really going to help much other than a miniscule amount of weight savings which is of no interest to me.

I'm choosing the bladed spokes not for "AeroGainz", but to help me with the build to avoid wind up. This will be the first set I build. I'll be using DT's squorx brass nipples. Sorry OldPotatoe, if I lived in the US I'd for sure be employing your services, alas I do not. Much as I'd love to.

[tellyho]

I think worrying about windup is overrated. If it were me, I'd be using good old double butted spokes. Bladed spokes are a pain to work with.

[robertbb]

Originally Posted by tellyho

I think worrying about windup is overrated. If it were me, I'd be using good old double butted spokes. Bladed spokes are a pain to work with.

Interesting. In what way are bladed a pain to work with?

“Da Interwebs” is full of fearful stuff saying DB round spokes will wind up and bladed spokes are easier to observe. I’d be thrilled if that could be debunked - bladed are quite pricey.

[oldpotatoe]

Originally Posted by tellyho

I think worrying about windup is overrated. If it were me, I'd be using good old double butted spokes. Bladed spokes are a pain to work with.

What makes them a 'pain', first is paying for them. A CXRay/CXSprint from Sapim are 4X the price of Sapim Race or DT Comp...

BUT, these oval are thin spokes..'windup' happens more easily. AND the resulting wheel, when compared to a wheel made with round, double butted spokes, performs just the same...Lots of marketing going on. Proper choice of appropriate rim, spoke count, way more important...along with a good build.

[robertbb]

Thanks OldPotatoe , I think you've got me onto the round spokes train for this.

Question, with the asymmetric rim would you just go with Comps (2,1.8,2) all around or would you consider Revolutions (2,1.5,2) for the rear NDS and front DS?

Interwebs says using heavier spokes on rear DS and front NDS (on disc builds) will even up spoke tension and improve reliability but I wonder if the gains in doing this are negated by the asymmetric rim anyways and may even result in a weaker wheel considering it's a light/shallow rim.