Campagnolo 9- and 10-speed mixology

[smontanaro]

I'm trying to get prepared for my next project, building up a rinko bike using an 8-out-of-10-on-5 setup. Weird, yes, obsolete, mosdef. My plan is to use a 8 cogs from a 10sp Shimano cassette with Campagnolo 10sp spacers on a Grand Bois cassette hub. While not entirely straightforward, I think I can pull that part off, as the bits are easy to find and not terribly expensive if the experiment fails.

More interesting for me would be figuring out compatibility between 9-speed and 10-speed parts. If I understand correctly from perusing the web (Branford Bike, most especially), the post-2000 9-speed rear derailleur should be compatible pull-ratio-wise with the 10-speed derailleur. Either would work for this exercise, right?

The gearing I have in mind would probably require at least a mid-length cage, but those seem to be uncommon in 9/10-speed. (I see a medio – 72.5mm – cage in the 2008 Veloce catalog.)

Moving on to shifting... Are downtube 10-speed shift levers available (downtube shifters make rinko-izing a bit easier)? I see bar end shifters for time trial, which are apparently relatively easy to convert to downtube use, but were actual 10-speed indexed downtube shifters available? If not, I could use brifters or learn to friction shift the narrower spacing via the downtube.

[oldpotatoe]

Originally Posted by smontanaro

I'm trying to get prepared for my next project, building up a rinko bike using an 8-out-of-10-on-5 setup. Weird, yes, obsolete, mosdef. My plan is to use a 8 cogs from a 10sp Shimano cassette with Campagnolo 10sp spacers on a Grand Bois cassette hub. While not entirely straightforward, I think I can pull that part off, as the bits are easy to find and not terribly expensive if the experiment fails.

More interesting for me would be figuring out compatibility between 9-speed and 10-speed parts. If I understand correctly from perusing the web (Branford Bike, most especially), the post-2000 9-speed rear derailleur should be compatible pull-ratio-wise with the 10-speed derailleur. Either would work for this exercise, right?

The gearing I have in mind would probably require at least a mid-length cage, but those seem to be uncommon in 9/10-speed. (I see a medio – 72.5mm – cage in the 2008 Veloce catalog.)

Moving on to shifting... Are downtube 10-speed shift levers available (downtube shifters make rinko-izing a bit easier)? I see bar end shifters for time trial, which are apparently relatively easy to convert to downtube use, but were actual 10-speed indexed downtube shifters available? If not, I could use brifters or learn to friction shift the narrower spacing via the downtube.

Correct..

Don't know the grearing but a 'mid cage' probably would be fine unless you have a triple crank.

No, no 10s downtube shifters made. Easy to use Bar-Ends altho you need the backing plates. The ones made for last gen, 'big barrel' retro friction shifters would work. NOT the RH one for Retro-friction DT shifters, the 'tab' isn't tall enough. A gent on this forum made some..don't recall who that was.

[smontanaro]

Originally Posted by oldpotatoe

Don't know the grearing but a 'mid cage' probably would be fine unless you have a triple crank.

I'm unlikely to triplize this bike. I have a Racing Triple setup on my Monti Special. I just rode L'Eroica with a 48/34 TA double and a 13-32 IRD 6-speed freewheel. That worked fine ("fine" as in I didn't have to walk up any hills and was able to remain seated while climbing).

Originally Posted by oldpotatoe

No, no 10s downtube shifters made. Easy to use Bar-Ends altho you need the backing plates. The ones made for last gen, 'big barrel' retro friction shifters would work. NOT the RH one for Retro-friction DT shifters, the 'tab' isn't tall enough. A gent on this forum made some..don't recall who that was.

[/quote]

Thanks. Mark McM's indexing ring suggestion looks like a simpler route, as long as I can find a suitable indexing ring.

[carpediemracing]

It's been posted here before because I've commented on it, but if you have room for a 9s Shimano cassette, and use a Shimano 9s rear derailleur, you can use a Campy 10s shifter with zero mods to anything except where you put the cable on the rear derailleur for the cable mounting bolt - you simply put the cable on the wrong side of the bolt.

This is a setup we have on our tandem (so it has long, long cables, which make shifting worse). All the parts are stock and unmodified except I filed the heads down to fit the Campy shifter cable seats) and it works beautifully. Campy 10s shifters (which I prefer to STI) mated to an otherwise stock Shimano 9s drivetrain.

[smontanaro]

Originally Posted by carpediemracing

It's been posted here before because I've commented on it, but if you have room for a 9s Shimano cassette, and use a Shimano 9s rear derailleur, you can use a Campy 10s shifter with zero mods to anything except where you put the cable on the rear derailleur for the cable mounting bolt - you simply put the cable on the wrong side of the bolt.

This is a setup we have on our tandem (so it has long, long cables, which make shifting worse). All the parts are stock and unmodified except I filed the heads down to fit the Campy shifter cable seats) and it works beautifully. Campy 10s shifters (which I prefer to STI) mated to an otherwise stock Shimano 9s drivetrain.

Hmmm. I'll give that a thought. Note though that I won't be using a full cassette, no matter how I implement the solution. Rear spacing will be 120 or 126 (hence the note about 8 of 10 in 5: 8 sprockets out of 10 in the space of a traditional 5- or 6-speed rear end).

Black components are a complete non-starter for me. Beyond DA-7400 Shimano started to get ugly in my eyes as well. (At this early stage, I feel like I can still be picky.)

[Mark McM]

As you noted, 2000+ 9spd derailleurs are essentially identical to 10spd derailleurs (same geometry, same cable travel ratio, etc.), so later 9spd derailleurs work perfectly with 10spd shifters. 10spd derailleurs were made in 3 cage lengths (short, medium, and long). I probably have an extra medium or long cage 10spd derailleur if you are interested.

Re-spacing a Shimano cassette with Campagnolo 10spd spacers can work, but the spacing won't be 100% the identical. As noted in Sheldon Brown's spacing crib sheet, Shimano 10spd sprockets are about 0.1mm narrower than Campagnolo 10spd sprockets.

I don't believe there were any Campagnolo 10spd down tube shifters; however,the levers and indexing mechanisms were identical between down tube and bar-end shifters, they only differed in the mounts. Also note that on bar-end shifters the lever stop is built into the bar-end mount, whereas on down tube shifters the lever stop is on a washer that fits over the square portion of the down tube shifter boss. So moving a bar-end shifter to the down tube is just a matter of unscrewing the lever from the bar-end mount, then adding the lever stop washers and screwing the lever onto the down but boss. If you don't have OEM lever stop washers, you could probably use generic ones. Also note that 8spd, 9spd & 10spd bar-end/down tube levers are the same, just with different indexing rings. Indexing rings are interchangeable, so you could, for example, swap the indexing ring from a 10spd bar-end shifter into an 8spd down tube shifter.

[smontanaro]

Originally Posted by Mark McM

As you noted, 2000+ 9spd derailleurs are essentially identical to 10spd derailleurs (same geometry, same cable travel ratio, etc.), so later 9spd derailleurs work perfectly with 10spd shifters. 10spd derailleurs were made in 3 cage lengths (short, medium, and long). I probably have an extra medium or long cage 10spd derailleur if you are interested.

Thanks. I'll touch base when I'm back stateside next week.

Originally Posted by Mark McM

Re-spacing a Shimano cassette with Campagnolo 10spd spacers can work, but the spacing won't be 100% the identical. As noted in Sheldon Brown's spacing crib sheet, Shimano 10spd sprockets are about 0.1mm narrower than Campagnolo 10spd sprockets

Thanks, I wasn't aware of that cribsheet page. Another bookmark!

Originally Posted by Mark McM

Also note that 8spd, 9spd & 10spd bar-end/down tube levers are the same, just with different indexing rings. Indexing rings are interchangeable, so you could, for example, swap the indexing ring from a 10spd bar-end shifter into an 8spd down tube shifter.

Nice. Another easy hack (well, as long as I can find the appropriate indexing ring).

[Hindmost]

Originally Posted by Mark McM

Indexing rings are interchangeable, so you could, for example, swap the indexing ring from a 10spd bar-end shifter into an 8spd down tube shifter.

There are some incompatibilities here re: earlier two G springs vs later three G springs.

[oldpotatoe]

Some snipped.

Originally Posted by Mark McM

So moving a bar-end shifter to the down tube is just a matter of unscrewing the lever from the bar-end mount, then adding the lever stop washers and screwing the lever onto the down but boss. If you don't have OEM lever stop washers, you could probably use generic ones. Also note that 8spd, 9spd & 10spd bar-end/down tube levers are the same, just with different indexing rings. Indexing rings are interchangeable, so you could, for example, swap the indexing ring from a 10spd bar-end shifter into an 8spd down tube shifter.

-No..the 'tab' on the RH one is longer to accommodate the bigger barrel. A 'generic' one won't be long enough and may not be pointted in the right spot.
A Campag one from the big barrel, retro friction shifters will work.

-Sorry, not true for the latest gen, 3 spring DT shifter(8s-1995+) and the later gen barend shifters(9 and 10s)..those shift discs were unique to 3 spring and the earlier 8s, 2 spring ones won't work. ALL the 9 and 10s barend shifters were 3 spring...

[jtakeda]

Ive got some indexed 10 speed DT shifters. Ill send a message

[smontanaro]

Thanks for all the very useful feedback. There's a purported set of 10sp Veloce DT shifters on eBay:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/267013387422

Are they really bar ends, or is there a mistake in the listing?

[oldpotatoe]

Originally Posted by smontanaro

Thanks for all the very useful feedback. There's a purported set of 10sp Veloce DT shifters on eBay:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/267013387422

Are they really bar ends, or is there a mistake in the listing?

They are indeed downtube shifters...and marked '10s' on the box..Interesting since starting in 1995, Campag made 3 spring 8s shifters in Record and Veloce...Starting in 1997, Record and Veloce in 9s...Then in 2000(first year of 10s), Veloce DT shifters gone and Record just 9s. All gone 2 years later and bar-ends only...

Easy to put a 10s disc into 3 spring DT shifters..and maybe from the factory as well...in Europe.