Power vs HR mental load

[trener1]

Just to touch on one thing that you mentioned (OP), not the whole topic.
You mentioned that you train indoors and are seeing higher HR numbers, perhaps this is information that you already have, but... Cooling has a huge affect on HR when raining indoors since you don't have the breeze on your body helping with cooling, having 2 or 3 really good fans facing you and behind will keep your HR down.

[benb]

Originally Posted by trener1

Just to touch on one thing that you mentioned (OP), not the whole topic.
You mentioned that you train indoors and are seeing higher HR numbers, perhaps this is information that you already have, but... Cooling has a huge affect on HR when raining indoors since you don't have the breeze on your body helping with cooling, having 2 or 3 really good fans facing you and behind will keep your HR down.

No I think that was a misunderstanding.

I most certainly do see higher HR #s indoors, but I've never even really built a cooling setup good enough to really train higher level intervals indoors without overheating problems. If I ride my trainer I am generally super limited on threshold or V02 level stuff cause I just overheat and my HR skyrockets and my body starts to shut down.

But I greatly, greatly prefer to be outside. The issues I was mentioning that make long duration intervals based on power difficult/stressful would be:

- Difficulty finding long enough stretches without downhills that make it impossible to keep the power target
- Sharp corners, stop signs, lights getting in the way
- Cars passing you when you're doing 25+ during a threshold interval and then slowing down to take a right turn in front of you, etc.. (this unfortunately seems to be REALLY common)

All those things cause you to fail the interval/miss your #s with power. But a little 5 second interruption like that does not make you "fail" if you're pacing on HR. (the power # at the end will still be low of course)

At least certainly when I started if something happens like a car stuffs me and my average power drops 25W from that interaction I'd then try to overcompensate by riding above the interval's required level to try and bring the #s back up, which really just doesn't work. I think the thing is just trying really hard to hit that # doesn't really matter. I didn't get the # but I did the interval 95% correct. It's not like it had no benefit.

[fourflys]

Originally Posted by benb

I think the thing is just trying really hard to hit that # doesn't really matter. I didn't get the # but I did the interval 95% correct. It's not like it had no benefit.

I think that was the main point of the coach's comments in the GCN video I mentioned in my first reply in this thread.. some variances here and there isn't going to invalidate your Z2 (or whatever) workout, you will still get the major benefits..

[benb]

Z2 is not really a problem in my experience I guess, but also very little benefit of power versus HR for Z2 I guess. If your Z2 target is 135-170 watts does it matter at all whether you average 140W or 160W for the interval? I doubt it, and of course you can't climb hills at those super low wattages without ultra low gears. Zone 2 and Tempo stuff I generally find it pretty easy to hit the #s.

It's really the threshold and V02 intervals where chasing average power for the interval seems like a frustrating disaster due to the way a few seconds of having to stop pedaling due to the environment results in a big change to average power.

I mean the car right hooking me.. if I'm doing threshold for 5-10 minutes the car right hooking me changes my average HR like 0.5-1% for the interval, but it drops the average power 10-15% in seconds due to the zeros impacting the power data in a big way.

[fourflys]

^^ good points and way to far over my head for me.. I'm just starting to consider an actual training program at this point and mine will start with a bunch of Z2 I think..

where are all the coaches at?!?!

[Likes2ridefar]

Originally Posted by glepore

I don't ride with a hrm much any longer, but it is useful for longer efforts. In the rolling country here, it is pretty much impossible to do a true zone 2 ride by power alone but you can keep the hr in z2 as it responds slower. Which has the greater physiological impact? Dunno.
I somewhat agree with the "plastic" body theory. Power is an excellent pacing tool, but on a good day when you can't feel the chain (an Eddyism) riding to a power target can be limiting, and on a tired day it can be counterproductive. The power data is one source of information among many to consider.
HR/pwr is a great gauge of freshness once you know your range, but perceived exertion is almost as accurate.

It isn’t impossible if you understand it doesn’t mean you fail the second you go below or beyond zone 2. The goal is to ride as much as possible if targeting but it isn’t going to kill you if need to stretch some. I always went beyond, rarely below, and I think benefited from it.

I use past tense because I no longer train or race but do use one for pacing on long rides or long efforts up climbs. Or just to test myself…

[Tandem Rider]

Originally Posted by fourflys

but I think that's a huge part of it (as I very minimally understand any of this).. that you can go out and do your workout via power and hit your marks, but if your body isn't in the right state, is the training really as effective long term? By using HR, you are staying in Z2 (for example) based on how your body is reacting to the stress being put on it vs. overreaching by using power only.. I could be way off, but that's how I internalized some of this..

That is why I think HR is a great measure of stress/fatigue. I still believe what a coach once told me, "stress is stress, your body doesn't see a lot of difference between an argument with your GF and an interval". If your stress/fatigue level is high, recovery is in order, not a hard ride (unless you are getting ready for stage racing). If you are recovered, then your HR should fall in line with your power number which is a much quicker response than HR which lags behind effort.

BID story about HR during an effort. Back in 88 or 89 I was teamed up with another guy for a 50K 2 man TTT, we rode 1 hr and a few seconds. We were within 10 pounds of each other, within an inch in height. 1 minute pulls, about 15 seconds to get back in the draft, and then start the 45 second recovery. His HR was a solid 10 bpm higher than mine. It showed that power doesn't match HR from person to person, we were all still trying to figure things out with some sort of metric that we could use.

[Likes2ridefar]

Of course heart rates don’t match from person to person at a given power output …

I’d recommend power

[KonaSS]

Originally Posted by benb

I mean the car right hooking me.. if I'm doing threshold for 5-10 minutes the car right hooking me changes my average HR like 0.5-1% for the interval, but it drops the average power 10-15% in seconds due to the zeros impacting the power data in a big way.

You can use a "lap normalized Power" field and use that for your intervals.

[bigbill]

When I raced in the 90s, SRM was really the only power measurement and out of the financial range of most amateurs. We all trained on HR and the hard tempo training rides were usually 170-185 for me. I relied on resting HR in the AM to tell me when I had not recovered. In criteriums, I never wore a HRM because I didn't want to know. I also didn't want distractions so I could focus on positioning in the pack. If I blew up, I was only a few blocks from my truck. I wore a HRM and used a computer in road races because I was a good break rider and if I got away, I could find the balance between HR and speed to shift to diesel mode. In time trials, I only used a HRM and stayed 175-185 until the last kilometers when I'd sell out.

Now I'm almost 60 with some disposable income and bought powermeter chainrings from Clean for the Open road bike. I don't ride many flat roads so the wattage is all over the place, but I appreciate the cadence and L/R balance since I have nerve damage in my left leg. By this weekend, I'll be riding in Wyoming where I have several flattish routes which might make the wattage useful for analysis.

[benb]

Originally Posted by KonaSS

You can use a "lap normalized Power" field and use that for your intervals.

That is generally not recommended by the "Power powers that be" as it can get even more distorted as you run into pacing issues.

Hard to say if it's helpful or not but yes it's an option.

edit: Actually they also say NP is not useful below 20 minute durations. Can't believe I hadn't internalized that.