Must-read of the week: The Doping Ordeal of Lizzy Banks

[.RJ]

Originally Posted by trener1

but I don't give her a pass just because she is a sweet english woman that is friends with Abby Micky and Daniel Fribe.

I dont think she needs a pass, her case was dropped by UKAD.

The thing that really stands out to me after reading the post and listening to her interview is how much liability that WADA puts on the individual rider - the teams and federations seem fine hanging them out to dry if there is a legitimate case to be made.

Based on this one side of this one story, it sure seems that WADA and UKAD are actively becoming part of the problem if their goal is reducing doping in sport.

[GregL]

Originally Posted by .RJ

My $.02 on this - As someone who's experienced "low T" to the point its nearly off the charts low, there's some nuance required before making a judgement about how people are looking after themselves.

I appreciate your insight and candor. I agree that there are very legitimate, medical circumstances that require hormone supplementation. Unfortunately, like EPO, steroids and other hormones have been illegitimately used by endurance athletes for decades and in more recent years by masters competitors. As prototoast noted, a “one size fits all” approach to rule making probably doesn’t work either. I’m not sure what the best solution is, but steps toward more fair and effective rules on these issues are welcome.

Greg

[Alistair]

Originally Posted by .RJ

… the teams and federations seem fine hanging them out to dry if there is a legitimate case to be made.

Based on this one side of this one story, it sure seems that WADA and UKAD are actively becoming part of the problem if their goal is reducing doping in sport.

Is it actually WADA doing the testing, or does WADA require the national federations to do it? I thought it was the latter, which is how Russia got away with so much doping across so many sports - their various federations were all rotten to the core.

A lot goes back to a comment earlier in this thread - there is no published baseline/control, so we don’t know how common people actually get trace amounts from supplements/other drugs/food/whatever. We really need control groups for baseline population and also control for elite athletes. And across a spectrum of substances.

[Alistair]

Originally Posted by GregL

As prototoast noted, a “one size fits all” approach to rule making probably doesn’t work either. I’m not sure what the best solution is, but steps toward more fair and effective rules on these issues are welcome.

Sadly, people can’t be trusted to do the right thing. Like the guy in the example above - performing well above previous levels now that’s he’s on T feels like doping to me (given only the info provided).

I race against RJ locally - I know his medical history, and he’s not performing any better now than 5 years ago. Now, if he suddenly shows up with his 30 year old fitness and physique, I’ll taunt him mercilessly.

[benb]

It's almost like National doping bodies shouldn't be adjudicating their own riders suits to overturn doping positives.

Cause obviously every national doping body has conflicting interests and wants to see their own athletes continue to win.

There is seemingly no country immune to this.

I really see her story no different than the Russians or Chinese (or US), the national body decides to buy the excuse when they think it's going to benefit the nation's winnings. If you're in that country you're predisposed to give the rider the benefit of the doubt, if you're not you are predisposed to think that country is dirty and is covering things up.

[Mark McM]

Originally Posted by benb

It's almost like National doping bodies shouldn't be adjudicating their own riders suits to overturn doping positives.

Cause obviously every national doping body has conflicting interests and wants to see their own athletes continue to win.

Making athletes answerable to their national ADAs was likely a concession to get the various sporting bodies to agree to the WADA code. Still, it is a better system than before, where-in the national ADAs are separated from the sports organizing bodies, so at least it removes the conflict within the sporting bodies themselves. Previously, the UCI was responsible for both promoting bicycle racing, and also for anti-doping in bicycle racing - an obvious conflict of interest.

Every once in a while, the head of an ADA gets it in their head that their job is to root out sports doping regardless of the political repercussions. This is how USADA was able to do the investigation into the US Postal team.

Also note that national/international sports bodies don't have to be signatories to WADA if choose not to. However, the carrot/stick in this equation is that all international sporting bodies that want to take part in the Olympics must be signatories of the WADA code. the NBA and the NHL aren't signatories to the WADA code, but USA Basketball (member of the International Basketball Association) and USA Hockey (member of the International Ice Hockey Federation) do follow the WADA code because their international bodies are part of the Olympics. An NBA or NHL player is not subject to WADA testing unless they decide to join the USA Olympic team, in which case they are subject to the same testing as any other WADA athlete.

[EB]

Originally Posted by Mark McM

Also note that national/international sports bodies don't have to be signatories to WADA if choose not to. However, the carrot/stick in this equation is that all international sporting bodies that want to take part in the Olympics must be signatories of the WADA code. the NBA and the NHL aren't signatories to the WADA code, but USA Basketball (member of the International Basketball Association) and USA Hockey (member of the International Ice Hockey Federation) do follow the WADA code because their international bodies are part of the Olympics. An NBA or NHL player is not subject to WADA testing unless they decide to join the USA Olympic team, in which case they are subject to the same testing as any other WADA athlete.

The NBA/NHL/NFL approach is the structure that Lancey-pants has advocated for on his podcast for cycling. The economics of professional cycling are quite a bit different than those sports, so this is likely just him talking out of his a$$. The NFL is also likely rife with PEDs, though perhaps for Lancey-pants that's the point!

[72gmc]

Originally Posted by EB

The NFL is also likely rife with PEDs, though perhaps for Lancey-pants that's the point!

Not just the NFL ...

... my read is that Lance recognizes the game is to shop for the anti-doping regime that suits the way you want to operate. Anything associated with the IOC is probably the least predictable aka the most affected by politics--hard to do business when you can't predict whether a "contaminated kitchen" is going to pass or fail.

[benb]

Originally Posted by EB

The NBA/NHL/NFL approach is the structure that Lancey-pants has advocated for on his podcast for cycling. The economics of professional cycling are quite a bit different than those sports, so this is likely just him talking out of his a$$. The NFL is also likely rife with PEDs, though perhaps for Lancey-pants that's the point!

These sports are all just wink wink approaches AFAICT and they just bust someone when that player is too much of an image problem for the league.

I can't believe how many died in the wool NFL fans I've met who think football players are actually clean.

Not sure I even believe there are very many D1 college players in those sports that aren't doping. Heck I went to a D1 football high school and the rumors were strong that there was doping on our football team in the "special" weight room sessions.

I think we mostly don't want the wink wink approach for cycling. But the wink wink approach is way easier to implement.

I think cycling mostly was still a wink wink sport in the Lance era and he was too dumb to realize it was transitioning out of it during his first "retirement".

[72gmc]

Originally Posted by benb

I think cycling mostly was still a wink wink sport in the Lance era and he was too dumb to realize it was transitioning out of it during his first "retirement".

I think he was too egotistical to accept that he'd peed in the pool and the other swimmers weren't interested in sharing the pool with him anymore.

[.RJ]

Originally Posted by Alistair

Is it actually WADA doing the testing, or does WADA require the national federations to do it? I thought it was the latter, which is how Russia got away with so much doping across so many sports - their various federations were all rotten to the core.

They require the federations to do the testing - with varying results, I'm sure.

From the interview on the cycling podcast - and this is just one side of one story - it certainly seems that WADA isnt really invested in anything other than keeping the lights on at WADA. In cases like this, giving athletes tools and support they can use to make better choices I think would avoid a lot of problems.

[downtube42]

Originally Posted by GregL

+1. My observations and experiences have been nearly identical. An acquaintance got a diagnosis of “low T” and was prescribed testosterone supplementation. He was a good rider who was typically mid-pack. A year later, triple state champ in road/crit/TT for his masters age group. Another acquaintance has openly admitted to his PED use. Human egos are fragile things…

Greg

Human egos are fragile but also clever. One can ride at any level clean, and the ego will argue everyone ahead is either doping or e-doping.

[merckxman]

"Lizzy Banks 'bitterly disappointed' as WADA appeals UK Anti-Doping’s decision to clear her....."