Organized education is difficult for the majority of ISFPs, and many drop out before finishing secondary education. Their interest can be held better through experiential learning, at which many excel. ISFPs will practice playing an instrument or honing a favored skill for hours on end, not so much as practice as for the joy of the experience.

I'm pretty sure that most of the bikes were "stock", since they were demos. I know that the Nove (now my Nove) is a stock 52cm.

My Steel Axiom (according to some guy named Zanc-something who used to work there...) is spec'ed as follows: Handling - 6, Drive train rigidity - 7, Vertical compliance - 5, Weight to performance ratio - 8. I think this is relatively stock, with slightly faster handling and less vertical compliance.

I agree with you, swoop - That's why I'm happy buying stock frames...

infp


i like chainstays that work -- i figure a good builder can get that result in a lot of ways, none of which i'm capable of discussing.

hmfic

osyf

atmo -
absolutely too much ovum atmo

are you sure the wife knows this?

:)

g

Time to put it to rest ...
 

folks, I think this thread is pretty much done. thanks for the memories :beer:

Serious thread drift, but it looks a bit out of control anyway. Grant must have been talking about the Rigi as seen here. The guy who got me into cycling in the late 70s bought one of these new and he still has it. I can attest that it is the worst handling bicycle I've ever pedaled. If I remember correctly, there were a bunch of really short chainstay bikes that came out around the same time.

Trust me, I was looking over my shoulder when I typed that. That's the bad. The good side is I'm PW'd* and not hen-pecked.

*PW = http://www.worldclasscycles.com/pwood_SL-option500.jpg

I gots to ax
 

I understand the physics of curved seat stays allowing some movement. I also believe it can be measured. But my question is can it be perceived? Lots of things can be measured yet are well outside the realm of being able to be felt by a human being. I see plenty of bikes with varying degrees of bend in the seat stays to accomplish some wheel movement but the wheel is also within 5mm or so to the back of the seat tube. So given the travel of the wheel is basically an arc, that gap between the wheel and seat tube doesn't allow for much movement. So can humans feel say 2mm of rear wheel movement? Before people defensively answer, has blind testing been done to back it up? I'm not busting any chops I'm asking a real question. There's a famous road test done by some bike mag where a group of individuals rode their bikes on a timed circuit with identical looking waterbottles but some bottles were empty while others were filled with weights in 1# increments up to 5#. Not one of the riders could reliably tell the difference between an empty bottle and the 5# one plus times didn't reliably reflect weight differences. Now I know this test isn't testing wheel movement but it does illustrate that these riders couldn't tell the difference between a bike that say weighs 18# and one that weighs 23#. So my point is people as measuring instruments aren't that accurate.

Curt

Curt,

First of all, on curved seatstay or soft-tail bikes the rear wheel does travel mostly in an arc (think of the axle’s path as it moves up), but it would have to move a significant amount (way more than 2 MM) before it moves a considerable amount towards the seat tube. If you have enough room to install the tire with it fully inflated, there is very little chance that it could move enough to hit the seat tube.

I have no doubt that a rider can feel an incremental difference of 2 MM if he starts from a very stiff set-up. If you ride a straight seatstay frame (essentially zero give) with aero wheels and high-pressure tires, then an additional 2 MM will be very discernible under high-frequency low-amplitude road conditions (i.e. – like chip and seal). Two millimeters should reduce the buzz under those conditions.

The only time it will be worse is if the added vertical give throws the rider/bike system into its natural frequency in which case the buzz will likely be amplified. If you pass judgment on this rare occasion, then you will likely be wrong the rest of the time under other conditions -- IMHO.

You say people can feel the difference theoretically but haven't done blind test to confirm that. Correct? Not looking for a cat fight just pointing out if there hasn't been any testing how do we know? It's my assertion that most prinesses can't feel that pea but then again I haven't done any testing either.

Curt

i recall dating a few that could atmo.