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God that sounds bad! (Yes I get that in normal routine maintenance that hydraulic hose will be way less trouble and last way longer than brake cables run internally.) |
out of all the new disc-brake equipped aero bikes, only the Cannondale seems to be worth the trouble.
Otherwise, manufacturers are contorting to get people to buy the disc-brake bikes. The 2016-2018 Trek Madone was a fine rim-brake bike, but that bike would have been faster than the 2019 disc version. So Trek made the 2019 rim-brake bike slower as well, just so they can say that their disc-brake equipped bike is faster than the corresponding, same-year, rim-brake bike. Irony here is that a rim-brake Cannondale would likely be faster than the disc-brake C'dale, but I don't think C'dale would be debuting that bike any time soon. |
relax guys. everyone's had shower thoughts that withered in the light of day.
besides, we all know coaster brakes are the most aero. |
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https://weightweenies.starbike.com/f...p?f=3&t=154692 Here's a summary of the results: Quote:
I've read the Cervelo white paper on the S5 Disc, which claims that the S5 Disc is faster than the previous S5 (no surprise there - every manufacturer claims their new bike is better than their old bike). But if you look closer, you'll see that they changed many aspects of the design (such as routing all the cables internally through the special stem, headset and fork). They mention how much power each change saved, and it adds up to more than the power saved by the whole bike - which implies that switching from rim to disc resulted in a power loss, for which they had to redesign other parts to make up for. |
It's a good thing these bikes will have discs, since with all the improved aero on the frame it might require greater application of brake forces to stop while coasting to a red light . At 5-8 mph, the average rider needs confidence they can stop comfortably and safely, with plenty of margin for error.
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Even if it was tested properly and the results were 8w I personally would prefer the disc bike. I tried the rim brakes on the Madone once and wasn't impressed. I sure as heck wouldn't want to service cable brakes on that bike either. Once installed, there's really no reason to ever go in and replace any of the disc brake system year to year.
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http://trek.scene7.com/is/content/Tr...aper_EN-GB.pdf note that the difference is well on marginal (1% faster for the older one), but this doesn't add all lend credence to the assertion that disc-brake frameset is faster |
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As much as I love my rim brakes and don’t really see the point of discs on a pure road bike, I don’t think the big manufacturers will be putting much R&D into rim brake optimization. Almost all the world tour teams are on disc this season. |
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Hey I'm skeptical that any of those bikes are significantly faster than my old Cervelo S2. I've got much smaller frontal surface area on this bike than the current fat tubes used. https://photos.smugmug.com/Cycling/T...6_200146-L.jpg https://photos.smugmug.com/Cycling/T...1_105748-L.jpg |
Wait...how are these people up in arms over disc brakes, but they are okay with direct mount brakes?
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I would tend to agree with the S2 being hard to beat aero wise. I’m still using my 2008 cervelo SLC-SL and my my soloist team. They are both getting long in the tooth though.
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i don't know about your riding style and attributes, but i was the type to go for any little aero advantage possible back when I raced. I couldn't accumulate points from sprinting, so I had to get away solo or in a small group, and aero helps there. The S2 was ahead of its times, and i'd venture that few framesets represent a significant upgrade over yours (earlier S5 being one of those) only minor quibble is that you can save a bit more by using an aero road brake such as the Tririg Omega |
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https://forums.thepaceline.net/showthread.php?t=233038 I suspect that it has nothing to do with extra aero drag, and the reason racers use rim brakes instead of discs is similar to why they use tubular tires instead of clinchers: By many measures clincher tires give a performance advantage over tubulars because clinchers have lower rolling resistance (and also often lower aero drag as well), BUT: The performance advantage of clinchers over tubulars is very small, and because clinchers are more prone to pinch flats and can't be ridden as fast when flat, the risk of losing a lot of time due to flat clinchers is of greater concern than gaining a little bit of time due to their lower rolling resistance. By many measures disc brakes can give better braking performance than rim brakes, by giving more consistent brake performance over a wider range of conditions. BUT: The time gained due to the braking performance of disc brakes over rim brakes is very small, and because disc wheels are slower to change and disc brake wheels have more interchangeability issues, the risk of losing a lot of time with disc brake wheels in case of flat tire or other wheel problem is of greater concern than gaining a little bit of time due to their more consistent performance. |
Come On Spring!
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You can get very close to these car-priced bikes for a lot less. I've been thinking about a more aero front brake for a while. Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk |
Ha, ha no kool aid here! I’m still happily using my 2005 and 2008 cervelos for road cycling. I could care less to be honest, but it doesn’t take a genius to see where this trend is going regardless of the actual number of teams using disc bikes right now.
I’ve seen this story play out in the bike biz with many changing standards over the years. It’s clear to me that the majority of R&D is going into disc brake bikes and not rim brake bikes regardless how anyone feels about it. |
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Truth
[QUOTE=Bonesbrigade;2499470]Ha, ha no kool aid here! I’m still happily using my 2005 and 2008 cervelos for road cycling. I could care less to be honest, but it doesn’t take a genius to see where this trend is going regardless of the actual number of teams using disc bikes right now.
I’ve seen this story play out in the bike biz with many changing standards over the years. It’s clear to me that the majority of R&D is going into disc brake bikes and not rim brake bikes regardless how anyone feels about it.[/QUOTE] Exactly. |
I found a video of Tom Ritchey on YouTube to be pretty informative. It's titled:
Tom Ritchey Q&A With fahrstil He starts talking about aerodynamics and drag at about 42 min into the talk, but the whole clip was worth watching. As a user of disc brakes, I couldn't imagine riding a mountain bike without them. That being said, my main challenge on a road bike is not slowing down, but going faster. Finally, I will not rest easy until disc brakes come stock on balance bikes. Shoe life will be increased. |
As more bikes become disc brake only, wheel designers will be able to play with the rim shapes to make them more aero, this is where a load of benefits will come
My own experience: I was riding my TT bike in Ironman Zurich (appologies to all Triathlon haters). Climbing Heart Break hill, supporters shower the riders with cool water, however, immediately after HB Hill, there is a short technical descent, I hit my brakes at 35-40mph to go into the first corner, my brakes and wheels were wet, it was clear I wasn't going to make it, so I bailed and went straight on, crossing a small traffic island, and mounted the sidewalk, luckily there was a dropped curb on traffic island and sidewalk for pedestrians. My next TT bike will have discs. |
Tri Try Tri
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Tri shows that the rider and his/her position and clothing mean more than negligible losses below anyway. I don't do Tri but I like the bikes and tech that go into them. |
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This may be yet another case of counting your chickens before they hatch. |
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It's old news and well known that by removing the restrictions that rim brakes held over wheel design it opened up possibilities that weren't there before.
Whether it matters a whole lot to many people is another matter. |
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Easy Tiger
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We've all done this dance a hundred times. |
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https://www.bicyclerollingresistance...d-bike-reviews |
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This stuff tends to be a bit hilarious.. < 10w at 27mph. I can't TT at 27mph. I don't even race anymore. Not going to worry about it. It seems the Pros aren't worrying a lot about a lot of it either when they keep choosing the rim brakes even when the discs are supposedly so much better, etc... Even when you've got the guys at the razors edge at the top of the sport it so often seems like the races are determined not by these aero engineering items but whether a given rider has something going on with their back that prevents them from hitting the optimal riding position for aero, or whether another rider seems to have an attention issue and crashes. Ignoring the dope they were both consuming no amount of aero advantage would ever have allowed Ulrich to beat Lance in the TdF. Lance had that back shape thing that hurt his aero probably more than anything Trek could have done to his bikes, but it didn't matter when Ulrich failed to keep the rubber side down so many times. As for tubeless I think all those claims have borne out on the MTB side.. I think if we all changed our mind and were clamoring for tubeless road it would spur enough R&D the tubeless tires would start improving more rapidly. Chicken and Egg? |
The biggest reason for a pro to skip disc brakes right now is the thought of trying to get a spare wheel in a race. The other stuff is minuscule in comparison.
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I do not know if the above is possible, just asking the question. |
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Another comment on the www.bicyclerollingresistance.com tests: These tests are a bit biased against standard clinchers, as their test procedure uses a relatively thick and lossy tube, not a low rolling resistance tube. Another test on this site show that latex tubes or thin butyl tubes will lower rolling resistance substantially, but they have chosen not to do tire tests with these tubes. Other testing groups that that do use latex tubes have shown that with these tubes, tubeless tires generally do not have lower rolling resistance. |
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Here's a popular rim from the 1980's, the Campagnolo Lambda Aero: http://www.bikepro.com/products/rims..._v_section.jpg And even though sidewalls are typically flat today, not all of them. Here some more modern Zipp rim brake wheels - which are clearly angled and curved for aerodynamics: http://zipp.com/_media/images/dynami...imProfiles.jpg https://c1.staticflickr.com/7/6084/6...7c36704353.jpg Would these rims be shaped differently for disc brakes? |
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Bottom line, like the brake arguments here you can't say one is a clear winner and you should just buy what works for you. To say that tubeless tires are at a distinct disadvantage to clinchers hasn't been the case for quite some time now and there have been great improvements in tubeless tires especially in the last 2-3 years. |
I assume a lot of the pros choose rim brakes to save weight. Contador used mechanical groupo until very recently IIRC to save that 200g of weight on mountain stages. When you have to climb 3 everest mountains every grand tour, the lightest bike is the way to go. I assume the same for aero bikes, i have not seen 1 aero bike in any size that's even close to 6.8kg. Until disk brakes become lighter than rim brakes, pros are going to stay with rim brakes.
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There have been many claims about disc brake bikes/wheels having an aerodynamic advantage. We may have to wait a bit more for definitive data, but from what we know so far, they have not yet proven to have the distinct advantages claimed. |
Both disc and tubeless for performance road are in their relative infancy. Seeing how fast there have been legitimate development tells me we haven't reached any sort of peak. You can't integrate rim brakes into the frameset like you can disc. The ones that have tried (Trek, Specialized, Ridley) have had relatively poor performing caliper brakes. Tubeless tires have gotten significantly more supple and better performing in the last couple of years. The difference between my current Schwalbe Pro Ones and the first Hutchinson Fusions I had is big.
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"Where's the my flying car?" I don't make equipment decisions based on promises for the future, I make them on current performance and characteristics. |
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