Compass Parts vs. MUSA
 

I'm planning to do a full rando conversion on an old Raleigh International. I've had a few 650B road rando-y bikes over the years include an OG Kogswell P/R, and a Rawland rSogn. The Raleigh is a bike I already own and have converted to 650B with cantilever brakes and it fits and feels great. The bike will get some more framework, including curved fender bridges, Schmidt SL wiring, custom racks and some brazeons.

As I comtemplate the build and look at grand masters USA rando framebuilders like Weigle, Winters, Chapman, MAP, Bantam, Coast, et. al., I am usually surprised by their choice of WI and Paul over the Compass offerings. MAP, I know, is close to Paul and has (still does?) work over there, so I guess I get that, but help me with this:

Rene Herse crank vs. White Industries...both are low Q, available with all kinds of gear (especially the compact gearing many of us prefer), both have some, shall I say, beauty marks. Namely, the Compass 3-arm chainrings are an acquired taste. And the WI isn't as svelt and, correct me if I'm wrong, is only available with black chainrings.

Centerpull brakes - Compass vs Mafac RAIDs vs Paul...Aesthetically, I just don't get the appeal of the Paul. That said, the Compass are $$$ and RAIDs can be had for ~$100 and refurbished into something as good as the Compass. I think I've decided to not go with centerpull brakes.

Cantilever brakes - Compass vs. Paul vs. everything else...The Compass brakes are the lightest ever. The Pauls are again visually not as refined. But here I'm leaning towards something else that's polished and takes modern cartridge pads. Perhaps the lowly CR-720.

Stems...I will go with the Grand Bois. I just dig them, man!

I don't mean to incite any flaming here, but am legitimately interested in what y'all are thinking. Like I said I'm planning my build.

i have tried a lot of canti brakes over the years now and concluded that Paul canti's are the best available. i havent tried the compass brakes, but i highly doubt they will be any better at actually braking.

crank - to me, the compass crank is EXACTLY what i dislike about most of the compass parts - they are all built to look like reenactment parts. the WI cranks are their own design, not a copy of some ancient part. i get what compass is trying to do, but it's not in line with what they do with their tires.

compass tires are class leading, excellent, innovative design and construction, that's why they sell so well and are so highly regarded.

their parts are the opposite. not innovative IMO at all. maybe some modern alloys or engineering, but the looks scream "i'm a new, insanely expensive crankset designed to look like a 60's part". just not my thing.

i appreciate that WI is doing a good crankset, with multiple gearing options on their own terms, not a copy of something great from the past.

with regard to stems and posts - nitto all the way.

i've thought about this stuff before, just my opinion on the matter.

I hate the look of Paul Racer Mediums, but Paul Racer brakes look great (especially polished silver) and function even better. I have Mafac and Paul on different bikes, both braze-on. Paul wins hands down, no squeal, good modulation, easy to adjust pad angle.

This is my opinion exactly. I am building a bike now that would probably work well with a set of Racer M's, but there is no way I'm putting such an ugly brake on this bike. Trying to decide between MAFAC Racers and something else. I have a set of Raids, Racers, competition, the Paul's, and could buy something else. But i'll probably go with the Paul Racers.

This is great feedback on the Paul Racers. I hadn't heard people poo-poo the look of the Mediums, but I see it now that you say that. I still think the regular Racers are too chunky looking, though, but the polished finished helps tremendously!

Thanks, AS!

Your note on Paul canti brakes is interesting. I'll do more canti research before I finally pull the trigger.

I think we agree about the Herse cranks, although, you gotta admit they're LIGHT!

The WI crank doesn't do it for me, but maybe if it came in all polished, I'd change my tune. For cranks, I'll leaning towards a 50.4BCD or an old XTR M900 I've been hanging onto on my build.

The Compass tires are great, but I'm totally happy with Grand Bois Hetres. They last forever and I still have some on hand.

Stems and post...I agree that Nitto is the business, and the Grand Bois stem is made by Nitto, but prettier than the Peal, Technomic, etc. and it's highly polished.

I am prejudiced; I don't like cantilevers. They stick out in an awkward way and are incredibly fiddly to set up. they are powerful, though. For a bike needing a little clearance for somewhat wider tires and fenders, centerpulls are the answer. They provide good power/mechanical advantage and are pretty easy to set up and maintain. If braze-on mounts are a possibility, then it improves the proposition of centerpulls even further. A set of Mafacs-which model depends on the reach/width needed-is ideal. NOS sets of Mafacs are getting pricier, but they are still quite reasonable compared to Pauls or Compass. A set of Mafacs in good shape updated with Koolstop pads is as good or better for the application than any modern brakes. It's subjective, but I find the Pauls to be ugly. If your Mafac's squeal, you need to adjust the toe-in properly or get new pads. There is no reason for them to squeal. Just as a note, Mafac centerpulls work great with Campy ergopower levers....the mechanical advantage/pull ratio matches up nicely.

I really love the way my Racer Ms work but yeah, they could look a little less 'industrial'. But I also don't feel they're as bad as some people apparently do...I think that they look better mounted than they do by themselves.

I would 100% go with centerpulls again....I do like cantis but I think that centerpulls have better modulation. I'm contemplating another custom and when/if I commit it will definitely have the CPs. Speaking of which, please point me in the direction of these $100 Mafac Raids. :)

Just a philosophical note.....Lots of really smart people involved in rando style bikes end up on the "re-enactment" side of the fence. There are good reasons. The main one is that the original builders of that style of bike were among the best craftsmen that have ever been in the industry..Rene Herse...Ernest Csuka...Jean Desbois...They came up with very elegant and effective solutions to perplexing problems for a bike. Whether it is an effective set of brakes to accommodate 30 mm tires and a fender, carrying a jacket, arm warmers, food, etc in an easily accessible place that has a minimal effect on handling, etc...It's a testament to their ability and ingenuity that not only haven't their solutions been surpassed, but many modern solutions to the same problems fall WAY short of the efforts made 40-50 years ago. This is not to say that there are no good modern solutions. I am certain that Rene Herse would be all over Ergopower or STI levers and 10-11 cogs in the rear...and modern lighting is so far superior to the old that any comparison is just silly....

Yeah, the Raids have pretty much been gobbled up. It's a great testament to a product that hasn't been made in 35 years. Sometimes you can find a decent set of Raids but with a few pieces of imperfect hardware. Of course, the Compass hardware is interchangeable and available (Thank you, Jan Heine!) or sometimes it's economical to find a sacrificial set of (Mafac) Racers. This gives you an excuse to go the full constructeur route on the brakes. I've done a few sets over the years. You can disassemble the brakes and work the sharper edges of the Mafac forgings smooth with a file/wet dry paper. After everything is nice, rounded, radiused polish them up to a mirror finish. It's worth the effort.

Brakes are important to me. 240 pounds and everything I ride is up, down and steep.

I bought an old Mondia that came with Mafac Racers (center bolt). Braking was abysmal so I swapped on some Yokozuna Matthauser pad clones, new cables and fine tuned the set-up, brake function was transformed. Even at my size I would not hesitate building a bike around post mount Mafacs or Compass brakes.

I have Racer M's on my primary bike and they function wonderfully, better than other Mafacs I've tried post mount or not. In terms of power and modulation I'd put them in the same ballpark as a top tier set of dual pivot road calipers. They are noticeably better than the two mid reach calipers I tried (V-O and Shimano). I will agree that for an aesthetic based build the Compass/Mafacs win hands down.

As far as cantilevers, I'm a fan. Too many bad cantis out there and the inherent complication in set-up have ruined it for the few good designs. IMO Paul cantis are simply meh. Suntour XC-Pro are the best I've tried hands down, add Power Hangers and they become the best rim brakes I've ever used. I doubt they work for you aesthetically, but I always have to stand up for cantis.

In honesty, if the brake design is sound (i.e. not arbitrarily lightened, or cost cut) pad choice is the true game changer. I've hated every brake I've used that came with Kool Stop Thinlines (Paul). Terrible pad design for my needs. Swap the pads and the brakes entered the real world.

I'm with AS on this one. Paul cantis are easy to set up look decent and work. Nitto stems are pretty much what all my threaded headsets hold. Cranksets I like the looks of the Compass' but the cost makes me shy away. I wouldn't be beyond a set if I found them used but I have a couple sets of TA Zephrys that I'm rather fond of as well. I also have a set of WI's that I like. I personally wouldn't look any further than Compass tires. I like them that well. Front rack I'd do Nitto as well as seatpost. But all this is just what I like. The bottom line is it's your bike. The only thing that is really necessary is that you like it and post a picture here when it's done. Sounds like a great project. Good luck with it.:beer:

paul centerpulls are far better than mafac or compass. Mostly because of the posts and bearings but also because the new threaded post pads are much easier to deal with although this is less of a deal if you know how to adjust smooth post brakes.. The paul set up uses taller cantilever posts and the arms have separate precisely machined bearings that the arms rotate on. This makes for a much more controlled fitment and much less wobble in the arm, that wobble can let the pads go into the tires on narrow brake track rims and cause chatter or squeeking down the line. Go up to just about any bike with direct mount mafacs and wobble the arms around, they almost always have a huge amount of play, sometimes this is hard to feel because the way the spring mount, just lock the front brakes and rock the bike back and forth and you can see the wobble. It is really hard to fix this. The height of the bearings in mafac brakes is just super short, I machined a set of custom bearings for my Pereira to minimize this as much as possible and they are still a lot worse than the pauls I have on other bikes.

that being said, paul racers barely work with 650bx42 tires and fenders.

Paul canti brakes benefit from the same precision bearing and also have adjustable spring tension. The compass cantilevers have really aggressive springs and no way to easily adjust them, at least they do still use the taller canti posts so they have less play now and shouldn't wear as fast.

I do like the look of the compass cantilever brakes a lot though.

On a 650b x 42 or larger bike I would go cantilever. My 650b chapman has paul neo retros on campy 10 levers and they have plenty of braking power IMHO, they do have less power than center pulls or v brakes or dual pivot brakes though. I bet well set up compass brakes would have more power but the wobbliness would just drive me nuts, every time i braked I would look down at the fron brake pads pulling forward 1/4 inch and be pissed off, perhaps that makes me a weirdo. Many people seem to think that any bike with less braking power than whatever is the maximum currently available is unrideable, if you are one of these people go with V brakes or disc brakes on a 650b x 42 bike IMHO.


As far as cranks go, the rene herse cranks are superior to the WI units. They are forged (WI are just machined from billet) and have many chainring options in just about any ratios desired.

that is my 2 cents.

Compass components are generally excellent in my experience. My preferences generally takes me toward mainstream carbon stuff, but I've used the Compass stuff and think it is worth the price.

The Compass/RH crankset resolves all the issues I had with the TA Pro 5 Vis...it's not noodly, has high-quality hardware, doesn't need an obscure crank remover threading, available at retail price, and some combos even have ramped rings.
The Compass stem is a work of art, and it's not a noodle.
Compass racks are thoughtfully designed. Only JPW makes a nicer rack.
Compass tires are incredible, and we all know this.
Compass handlebars are great if your hands agree with the shape.

Haven't tried the Compass cantis and am skeptical of the geometry. I like Revox because they work well, more so for me than Paul, etc.

Paul Racer Mediums (on posts) are probably the best rim brake I've tried. Modulation is really good and they felt all-around better than modern Shimano dual pivots, both with kool stop salmon pads.

I'm not totally sure why though -- a centerpull/u-brake is still a cantilever. Perhaps the mechanical advantage doesn't decrease as rapidly as traditional cantis.