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-   -   Just realized the irony of disc brakes on an aero bike. (https://forums.thepaceline.net/showthread.php?t=234077)

ergott 02-12-2019 12:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mark McM (Post 2499791)
I think you mean A tubeless tire is at the top of the list. This particular tire is also very lightweight and notorious for being delicate and flatting easily. (It's also not a true tubeless tire - instead it is Tubeless Ready.) There is no standard tubed version of the Vittoria Corsa Speed TLR to compare it to, so we can't know if it would be even better in a standard tubed version. But if you did a careful comparison of otherwise similar tires (i.e., similar size, tread thickness and casing toughness), I believe you'd see that tubeless tires show no clear advantage over standard tubed tires.

Another comment on the www.bicyclerollingresistance.com tests: These tests are a bit biased against standard clinchers, as their test procedure uses a relatively thick and lossy tube, not a low rolling resistance tube. Another test on this site show that latex tubes or thin butyl tubes will lower rolling resistance substantially, but they have chosen not to do tire tests with these tubes. Other testing groups that that do use latex tubes have shown that with these tubes, tubeless tires generally do not have lower rolling resistance.

Top 2 tires are tubeless. Next in line is tubular. The top clincher isn't an everyday tire either. When factoring in a latex tube as they suggest in more detail in the reviews the clincher would perform along side the tubeless tires. Keep in mind people with carbon clinchers and rim brakes are advised not to use latex tubes. This segment of the market (the ones that care most about these details) is more likely to own carbon wheels so you can assume they can use latex tubes.

Bottom line, like the brake arguments here you can't say one is a clear winner and you should just buy what works for you. To say that tubeless tires are at a distinct disadvantage to clinchers hasn't been the case for quite some time now and there have been great improvements in tubeless tires especially in the last 2-3 years.

zmalwo 02-12-2019 01:01 PM

I assume a lot of the pros choose rim brakes to save weight. Contador used mechanical groupo until very recently IIRC to save that 200g of weight on mountain stages. When you have to climb 3 everest mountains every grand tour, the lightest bike is the way to go. I assume the same for aero bikes, i have not seen 1 aero bike in any size that's even close to 6.8kg. Until disk brakes become lighter than rim brakes, pros are going to stay with rim brakes.

Mark McM 02-12-2019 01:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ergott (Post 2499804)
Bottom line, like the brake arguments here you can't say one is a clear winner and you should just buy what works for you. To say that tubeless tires are at a distinct disadvantage to clinchers hasn't been the case for quite some time now and there have been great improvements in tubeless tires especially in the last 2-3 years.

Which is of course why I never claimed that tubeless tires are a distinct disadvantageous (for rolling resistance). As I think we've both shown, they are roughly on par, with no clear advantage one way or the other. But that's not what has been claimed in the past - many people promised that tubeless tires would be better.

There have been many claims about disc brake bikes/wheels having an aerodynamic advantage. We may have to wait a bit more for definitive data, but from what we know so far, they have not yet proven to have the distinct advantages claimed.

ergott 02-12-2019 01:54 PM

Both disc and tubeless for performance road are in their relative infancy. Seeing how fast there have been legitimate development tells me we haven't reached any sort of peak. You can't integrate rim brakes into the frameset like you can disc. The ones that have tried (Trek, Specialized, Ridley) have had relatively poor performing caliper brakes. Tubeless tires have gotten significantly more supple and better performing in the last couple of years. The difference between my current Schwalbe Pro Ones and the first Hutchinson Fusions I had is big.

Mark McM 02-12-2019 02:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ergott (Post 2499831)
Both disc and tubeless for performance road are in their relative infancy. Seeing how fast there have been legitimate development tells me we haven't reached any sort of peak. You can't integrate rim brakes into the frameset like you can disc. The ones that have tried (Trek, Specialized, Ridley) have had relatively poor performing caliper brakes. Tubeless tires have gotten significantly more supple and better performing in the last couple of years. The difference between my current Schwalbe Pro Ones and the first Hutchinson Fusions I had is big.

"Fusion power is the energy source of the future - and always will be".

"Where's the my flying car?"

I don't make equipment decisions based on promises for the future, I make them on current performance and characteristics.

Burnette 02-12-2019 02:18 PM

Easy Peasy
 
You know can check all wheel sellers sites that offer disc for said info, trying to argue it out backwards here is a bit of a waste.

Bonesbrigade 02-12-2019 08:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mark McM (Post 2499843)

I don't make equipment decisions based on promises for the future, I make them on current performance and characteristics.

A current performance went down today at the tour of Columbia. The top 2 teams in the TTT were on disc brakes. EF actually won a TTT!

I am by no means saying they won because of disc brakes, my main point is they are putting all the R&D money into disc brake system design, and the best current ones are already very good.

54ny77 02-12-2019 09:40 PM

Can we get back to doping while testing for aerodynamics?

Burnette 02-13-2019 05:18 AM

He's Right
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by 54ny77 (Post 2500127)
Can we get back to doping while testing for aerodynamics?

Exactly, we're just rehashing disc thread stuff that we've all done to death. To summarize this thread: ride what you like and let the riders around you do the same.


The search for "proof" of anything requires testing.
For real world testing in real time we have to dope and ride vigorously and for long periods. Which I'm sure we'll forget to collect data on the first go around, cause short term memory loss, so then the retesting phase begins after that.

54ny77 02-13-2019 10:38 AM

Who said anything about riding vigorously, or riding at all?

:D

Quote:

Originally Posted by Burnette (Post 2500192)
Exactly, we're just rehashing disc thread stuff that we've all done to death. To summarize this thread: ride what you like and let the riders around you do the same.


The search for "proof" of anything requires testing.
For real world testing in real time we have to dope and ride vigorously and for long periods. Which I'm sure we'll forget to collect data on the first go around, cause short term memory loss, so then the retesting phase begins after that.



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