2011 Cervelo R3/2011 Campy Record 11 Build Issues
 

I had the LBS here start the build on my new 2011 R3..everything was going smoothly until he got to the cranks. The adapters were inserted and when he went to install the cranks, they wouldn't go together..he put a light in there and there was a gap so he called a few other shops who carried Cervelo's because they only carry Colnago, Cannondale, Serotta's, Gunnar's, etc..the people at the other shop said that there is an adapter for Campy along with Shimano as well. The guy building my bike was able to get a part number for the Campy adapter along with the part number from Cervelo. He seems to think that Campy manufactures the part and if this is so, he knows someone that works at Campy USA so it will be a quick find but if not, we'll contact Cervelo and see what we can do..does anyone know of this? Does anyone by chance have this adapter? I wasn't aware of it whatsoever! All I was aware of was the BB30 adapter cups which are new I believe. If anyone (OldPotatoe) has this..or has any information regarding this let me know! I am sure someone will have this somewhere.

Also..does anyone know if this adapter will change the performance of the crank? Just curious..

Is this a pressfit BB30 bottom bracket? Or is a BB Right BB? If the later, Cervelo has the adapter, if the former or just BB30, then Campagnolo does make a cupset for either BB30(BB30by 42) or press fit BB30(BB30 by 46).

Simple..no it's not. Cervelo, having aquired Rotor crank are making some frames that are taking this thing only.

BBRight adapter cups are available from Cervelo only. If this is a new frame then the correct adapter cups should have been supplied to you. Call Cervelo and have them send you the cups. The bigger question is why your "mechanic" didn't already know that a BBRight equipped Cervelo was going to need adapter cups for your Campy set-up?? Also be sure to use Loctite 641 or 609, together with Loctite primer when installing the adapters, otherwise you will have loose and creaking cups after only a few rides. Cervelo unfortunately has yet to issue a wider directive to dealers and consumers on this issue but plenty of folks have verified this issue on the Cervelo forum.
Lou

He's aware of the Loctite. The Record group came with the BB30 cups, are these not the right ones.

In our experience as a Cervelo dealer, Cervelo does not know what they're talking about in regards to adapting their own BBright system.

BBright is a BB30 shell that is 11mm longer on the non drive side. The cranks made for it are BB30 cranks with a longer spindle and flatter NDS crank arm.


Since the right side is BB30 width and the left side is outboard bearing width, an adapter is certainly possible for 24mm spindle outboard bearing cranks. But despite repeated calls to Cervelo and Q (who they claim have these parts), there aren't any adapter cups that do the job.

So when we need to install long crank arms that aren't available in BBright, we take a normal nylon Shimano to BB30 adapter from Wheels Manufacturing and turn the left cup down to almost nothing on the lathe. This is how they start:
http://lh4.googleusercontent.com/pub...E0fKq3NXo95F9w
And this is what the NDS cup looks like (this one is actually still a little thick:
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_NUmRA2jBSB...0/DSC02486.JPG

The problem is that no one makes an adapter of this type for Campy, so you can't turn one down.

What they do make is adapters that replace the bearing with a cup that accepts the Campy bearing. BB86:
http://www.competitivecyclist.com/im.../13131_i_1.jpg
BB30:
http://www.competitivecyclist.com/im.../15776_i_1.jpg
Campy makes these for BB30 and BB86, but the BBright NDS is actually 45mm from centerline (http://www.bbright.net/bbrightdrawings.pdf), so the 86 adapter is 2mm too wide. Trek's BB90 Ultratorque adapters are also 45mm from centerline on the NDS, but use a 37mm outside diameter rather than the BB30 and BB86 41mm OD, so they won't press into the frame.

Upshot: Your best bet is to try a Campy BB30 adapter on the Drive side with a Campy BB86 adapter on the NDS. The problem is that the BB86 adapter is going to stick out 2mm further than it should (because it is designed for a 43mm centerline, not 45), so you'll have to find a way of reducing the total spindle spacers by 2mm.

If that's possible, it should work. If there aren't 2mm of spacers to get rid of, maybe a machinist can somehow reduce one or both of the adapter cups by a total of 2mm. If some of that comes off the DS, make sure you maintain enough chainring clearance.

Otherwise, have a metal ring lathe turned that goes between the Trek BB90 Campy adapter and the BBright bearing shell, then use the Campy BB30 on the DS. I would red Loctite this ring to the adapter cups so you can press it out of the frame someday. BB90 is very different than BB30 and BB86, so I have my doubts how well this would work. I haven't been able to find blueprints for BB90 to see how bad it would be, but the ring would be 2mm at the thickest (37mm to 41mm).


I hope that all made sense. Ask if I need to clarify.

Can you call me?

I guess. PM me a number.

Just to be clear, your Record group has ultra torque cranks, yes?? If so then the BB30 cups will not work on your BBRight shell. As I indicated, the solution is quite easy, simply call Cervelo and get BBRight Campy adapter cups (manufactured by Campagnolo, but distributed ONLY by Cervelo), pop in the cups using Loctite, install cranks, ride bike. There is no need to engage in any of the complicated workarounds and retrofits listed above. This is all clearly explained on BBright.net

PM if u have specific questions.
Lou

We have never been able to get such a thing from Cervelo. We just get a confused run around.

But if they have it, that's the right answer.


Update: This guy got the right parts, obviously:

http://weightweenies.starbike.com/fo...p?f=10&t=80217

That is Lou's bike (other poster above). Problem figured out. Thanks for all of your help!

I guess this begs the question, why on earth is cervelo designing such a thing? Do they really think Rotor cranks and this frame/BB design design is the epitome of BB/crank design(aoing with a Look carbon ashtabula crank)?

This along with some other recalls and marketing/design decisions makes me think they are adrift.

This design is silly.

Because it makes the BB stiffer, and Rotor, SRAM and FSA are making specific cranks for it - which are simply BB30 cranks with longer spindles and a shallower NDS arm.

Campy is making a specific adapter for it, and Shimano doesn't support either BB30, BB86 or BBright, so that makes BBright no less stupid than the other two.


I'm not much of a Cervelo fan, but the design seems to work and hasn't been plagued with the problems of BB90, and gives more heel clearance than BB86, so I'm not sure why it is any sillier than tapered steerer tubes or 31.8 bars.

Kontact,

What is a huge Cervelo turn-off is the lack of support/response you seemed to have received as a Cervelo dealer (no slight to you). Puts the customer in no-man's land.

Campy has no idea which bike you are putting their gear on. Up to the owner/shop to insure the correct cups are ordered.

My friend just had a similar headache trying to get Campy on a Trek. The dealer he got the bike from had no ideas about adapters. He had to call another shop and they told him what he needed but rather bizarrely he gave that information to the initial shop so they could finish the job. I would have driven the thing down to the shop that has a clue. I also bet that they didn't locktite the cup in to place so I guess he will be dealing with the noise soon. Zinn's 2nd edition book actually has a few pages on BB30/press in BB and Campagnolo I noticed whilst browsing in Barnes and Noble.

And I'd agree - I think I said earlier that I am not a huge Cervelo fan.

But every brand seems to have things that they could do better - read the recent thread about Serotta's frame bearings.

I think Cervelo is a company whose endless quest for innovation often gets ahead of their ability to support it, and the designers still appear to be learning things that everyone else knew a long time ago. But for stock brands, you could certainly do worse. I'd certainly like to see more of our customers riding home on Parlees, Serottas and Sevens, though.

Sincerely all these new standards are a real PITA, who cares if bb30 BB is like 5% stiffer than regular threaded BB, after all like 99.9% of the cycling community sucks at the sport compared with the people who really is good at the sport and would use more of these new ideas.

Still dont understand why they are making stuff with more parts to fail, threads, cups and ready to go. In this case is, ok! what do i have here?? my crankset works with this? who knows? who makes the cups i need? it will work fine?? Oh campagnolo doesnt work with this! hmm... now i have a creak, have to loctite the cups again!, thats so saaadd... too many parts that can fail now. Nothing like regular BBs.

Leave that new stuff to pro racers, as i said before, like 99.9% of the population just doesnt need new standards and if cervelo continues like this, their whole bikes will use proprietary headsets, BBs and cranksets. Great!

I really see BB30/PF30 as fixing a problem that occurred when the oversized/hollow spindle cranks came out - outboard bearings eat heal clearance.

Since BB30 uses a 68mm shell with internal bearings, it can be adapted to use with just about an crank system, plus it is simple and offers cranks as narrow as the old square taper.

BBright - I don't know...

Part of the reason I'd never own a Cervelo.

I have Campy square taper cranks that I would say are pretty flawless in design and function
I bet less than 1% of cyclists could "flex" or otherwise make them or the bottom bracket function sub-optimally.
So what was REALLY the whole purpose of new bottom bracket designs and are we actually better off now?

CNY ultra torque feels way stiffer than squared tapper, really. But my point is, why create all of this paraphernalia with new designs when as simple the better? Love UT but when i have to find a bike now that takes threaded BB cups, i will run out of options soon because all the manufacturers are leaving the threads out maybe for next year. Maybe go with pressed fit cups and adapters is simple but the issue is that forces everybody to start buying stuff u really dont need. A pair of cranks, a good one is about 300 bucks minimum, then u get a new frame and u need to start thinking in spend 400 more because of the cranks... sucks u know.

The point of all these changes was losing weight, which works and sells a lot of bikes. Square taper is heavy, splined was lighter, UT lighter still and 30mm aluminum spindles really light.

BB30 is stupid easy to adapt, and there isn't a really a weight penalty for doing so. In the case of UT, it is a substitution of one factory cup for another. What's the downside to a BB that is lighter and slimmer than any other, but totally backwards compatible?

Yep, except hollow spindles, octalink and isis, were an answer to another not asked question for bicycles. Square taper, new cranks from shimano(7410) and Campagnolo, with short spindles, were stiff, reliable, useful, loads of heel clearance. Then shimano had to do octalink, followed by isis, which did nothing but start the bike wizards down this road.

Called BB'creak'. Sorry, but splined, etc was lighter but square taper wasn't 'heavy'. That's like saying aluminum CR bolts are so much lighter than steel ones..yep they are lighter but steel CR bolts aren't 'heavy'.

Yep, only 2 things you can measure in a bike shop, weight and price. If it's light and expensive, it must be top shelf..but often it isn't.

Lots of this stuff is embraced by frame builders cuz it's cheaper to do also. Big tubes are easier to mate to big tubes(headtube and BB shell) and it's easier to make a glued in shell than a threaded piece..and yep, I saw another BB30 shell that wasn't made square..nice noise!! And continually toasted bearings...nice.

Feels way stiffer is pretty suggestive.
Does anyone here actually think they can flex a Record crank on a sq taper BB?
Seriously?

Grazie for that. Big gorilla crank testers, exerting way more force than any of us mere mortals, shows stiffness hardly measureable. Chipo and some other really big dudes sprinted for green jersey points with shimano and Campagnolo, aluminum, square taper cranks and didn't seem to have any issues..so for us 'rec' riders, sorry don't see the reason. But I don't see the reason behind lots of this stuff...coming full circle back to cervelo and 'nother BB design.

I have two similar Ti bikes - one with a 7410 crank and the other with an Octalink Ritchey WCS crank. The Ritchey is clearly stiffer (under my massive 145 lbs.) at about the same weight. SRAM manages to scrub off between 130 and 150 grams by going from GXP to Red, which puts their high end cranks with BB at the same weight as 7410 and Ritchey WCS without a BB.

I seem to remember fighting creak with cartridge BBs all the way back to the early '90s when there was only cartridge BBs with square taper. I have not seen creak issues with all the Cervelo R series we service. Were you suggesting going back to loose ball BB that don't have any square interfaces to potentially creak?

Oldepotatoe,

I realize you are a conservative guy by nature, and really don't care for any of the monkeying around that happened between 2000 gram 32 spoke wheels and solid steel BB spindles until now, but average bike weights have dropped in that period by 3 or 4 pounds while drivetrain, frame and fork stiffness has gone up. Most people really like that, and the weight improvements have been primarily in wheels and components. Buyers expect 16 pound bikes that don't rub the FD when climbing - and they can get them now. That isn't a bad thing.

Being conservative isn't bad, either. Really, I think it would have been cool if the jump from square taper to BB30 happened without all the baby steps - more like the change from threaded 1" to threadless 1 1/8". If the English BB had been abandoned as fast as the 1" head tube we would have a very mature pressed in system by now. Klein and Merlin have been doing pressed in bearing successfully since the '80s - BB30 just builds on that.

Kontact, I am confused... if you are a Cervelo dealer and presumably an able mechanic, why would you suggest the BB adapter workarounds that you list above for a BBRight install. The BBRight adapter cups for Campy, Shimano FSA and Rotor have been widely available from Cervelo since November when they began delivering their 2011 BBRight equipped R-Series frames. Granted, there are some limitations to installing some older cranks/BB systems to the new BBRight standard, but such is the case when any new standard is introduced (e.g. headset bearings, stem clamp/handlebar diameter etc).

Also, I am not clear why you indicate that Cervelo folks are confused and inaccessible. Anytime I have had a warranty issue or technical question, I simply pick up the phone and call Toronto directly and I always speak to a real and capable person on the other end. When their tech support people have not been able to answer a question at times they have patched me through to one of their engineers and my questions have always been answered (either directly on the phone or vial email). For example, in handling my warranty claims for three R-series frames in the last 24 months, I have never had to wait for longer the 10 days for a replacement frame. The only issue I have had with Cervelo is that they have yet to issue a directive to dealers and consumers outlining the need for Loctite 609 or 641 when installing the BBRight adapter cups.

With regard to the BBRight system and its claim of increased BB stiffness...for those who have not tried a Cervelo R-series frame with BBRight it is really worth experiencing. I too was a doubter of perceived vs real increase in BB stiffness, but was pleasantly surprised by the noticeable difference. The increased stiffness is due not only to the oversize BBRight shell, but also the massive seatstays and the square seat and down tubes that connect to the BB shell. Moving from a 2010 R3-SL frame with threaded BB shell to 2011 R5 with BBRight Campy adapter cups, the difference was very notable.

Lou

Because on the several occasions we've called them on this issue, we were given the wrong information, part numbers that didn't do what they should, directions to call Quality, who also didn't have or send the right stuff and general confusion when our lead mechanic tried to explain why the stuff we were sent didn't work. Finally we just used the lathe.

If other shops are having a different experience with adapters - I couldn't tell you why we've had such a hard time.

That said, other Cervelo issues, like the loose cable stop rivets, unworkable cable routing on old S3s, the various P4 issues, fragile Rotor hardware and general warranty returns were handled expeditiously, even if we had to make a special tool to get a rivet gun close enough. I was not saying that Cervelo is universally bad, but we've found them challenged on this particular adapter issue, and I couldn't tell you why.


I had not said that they were inaccessible. I think you misread something.


And if our struggles with these issues are a thing of the past - fantastic. We haven't had to install a non-BBright crank in a month or more, so what I wrote may be entirely out of date.

I guess calling Kelin and Merlin pressed in BBs 'successful' is one person's perception.

I guess 3-4 pound drop in bike weight helps you put it onto the top of your car but that 1800 gram savings in that almost 90,000 gram rider and bike package means something to some and nothing to others. Like I said, you can meausre weight and price. BTW-I have a square taper crank on both of my old fashioned metal bikes and never drag my chain on the inside of my front der.

I also chase creaks almost everyday, many on external and BB30 BBs..some on octalink and square taper. I also play with shims on BB30 cranks all the time, trying to find that spot where the crank actually turns vs the number of shims where it is loose.

I would rather(and do) work on these things than sell them(I sell only one BB30 frame, Moots RSL) and think older designs, in spite of the huge weight penalty, to work better in many cases.

Exactly, you're conservative! :D