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-   -   For you metallurgists-ti galling (https://forums.thepaceline.net/showthread.php?t=127444)

oldpotatoe 04-06-2013 01:16 PM

For you metallurgists-ti galling
 
Ok, here's the problem.

Legend Ti frame, Record RD with ti fixing bolt. Regular customer, I have taken his RD off and put back on many times...no problem.

He travels with bike, takes RD off..this time when putting it back on..LOTS of resistance(it's not cross threaded, lathered with antisieze)..and when he tried to take it back off..no-can-do.

Brings it to me and to take it off, the typical mucho noise, WACK, Wack, big noise as it comes of in spurts, complete with sparks..obviously galled in there. So I DO finally get it off, swap the ti bolt with another one..re lather with antisieze..put it back on, not a lot of resistance but some..same issue getting it off again...

What is going on? Undoubtedly it's ti to ti galling but why? And what to do?

I'm stumped, never seen this before.

TPetsch 04-06-2013 01:22 PM

Well, you installed a new bolt, so you know the threads on that are perfect.

How about chasing the threads on the frame to clean it of any debris?

gemship 04-06-2013 01:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TPetsch (Post 1325717)
Well, you installed a new bolt, so you know the threads on that are perfect.

How about chasing the threads on the frame to clean it of any debris?

beat me to it...I would suggest a cut type tap with some tap oil if they are thru threads otherwise a roll form tap although the cut type will work either way.

zap 04-06-2013 01:25 PM

What happens when you use a steel or al bolt.

jpw 04-06-2013 01:25 PM

is there an alu bolt available to try? softer metal. might show the issue in markings after it comes back out.

SPOKE 04-06-2013 01:56 PM

Carefully run your derailleur hanger tap thru the threads. I bet there is a little buildup in the root of he threads. Be sure to use cutting oil with the tap.
There is a posibality that threads in the hanger have been "pulled" a little by tightening the derailleur bolt a bit too much so now the pitch diameter of the threads are not quite to spec.

David Kirk 04-06-2013 02:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SPOKE (Post 1325731)
Carefully run your derailleur hanger tap thru the threads. I bet there is a little buildup in the root of he threads. Be sure to use cutting oil with the tap.
There is a posibality that threads in the hanger have been "pulled" a little by tightening the derailleur bolt a bit too much so now the pitch diameter of the threads are not quite to spec.

What the Spokemon said.

Dave

cmbicycles 04-06-2013 02:22 PM

The threads were perfect on the new bolt, not likely perfect anymore. Sounds like the threads in the frame need to be tapped. When galling occurs the two surfaces pick up/transfer material from one surface to the other. The once smooth surface in the frame is no longer smooth, it likely has some ridges or bumps on the surface from picking up material from the old bolt. Sometimes with the galling they create a sort of anti-reverse burr, like parking lot spikes so you don't back up, it ramps up in one direction so it goes in smooth but is a bugger to get out.

I doubt it is so bad that it needs a heli-coil or similar, so tapping is the best bet. Being ti, I am sure you are aware, it is prone to wrecking taps so lots of good cutting fluid suitable for ti. After tapping so the tap goes in and out easily, try threading in the derailleur alignment tool, as I believe they have a hardened bolt.

You can try Teflon tape along with the copper anti seize when reassembling. In theory the copper particles in the anti seize are supposed to fill the gaps so the metal doesn't gall, the addition of the teflon couldn't hurt. Other industries use silver coatings on bolts prone to galling, or there are nitride coatings and anodizing options, but likely not economical.

brenick 04-06-2013 06:18 PM

For what it's worth, Lennard Zinn recommends never using ti bolts with ti parts. Mountain Bike Performance Handbook.

Brian Smith 04-06-2013 10:07 PM

countersink and re-tap
 
Having made and been party to the making of oodles of these dropouts...I recommend:
45 degree countersink to the outside surface for about 0.020"
Fresh M10x1 tap running from the inside to the outside, and a good one.
Be sure to apply abusive sideways force to the tap once it has protruded through the thickness of the hanger.
Ti is somewhat tough to tap, and it's only in the later years that the operators creating the dropouts cared enough to make the threads work, and sometimes the taps supplied to secondary QC operators are equally secondary in quality.
This isn't the first time, won't be the last, but the fix is fairly simple.
Drilling a 9mm tap hole with a 9mm drill in titanium isn't as assured a procedure as one might imagine.
The 9.1mm drill was prohibitively expensive. So was interpolating the hole with a 0.25" end mill, though the result was sweet.
The later frames did a better job of this, I promise. Better tight than loose.

AgilisMerlin 04-06-2013 11:25 PM

this just reminded me to re-copper paste my ride.

http://aws.bikepartsmart.com/media/c...image_2915.jpg

oldpotatoe 04-07-2013 07:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gemship (Post 1325719)
beat me to it...I would suggest a cut type tap with some tap oil if they are thru threads otherwise a roll form tap although the cut type will work either way.

Thought of that, try tomorrow but I'm worried I'll get the tape stuck in the der hanger or it will break off.

Also gonna try a steel bolt also.

Thanks for all the posts...

Mikej 04-07-2013 02:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by oldpotatoe (Post 1326011)
Thought of that, try tomorrow but I'm worried I'll get the tape stuck in the der hanger or it will break off.

Also gonna try a steel bolt also.

Thanks for all the posts...

Tap will cut its way out. Let us know how it works. I had this happen to an older moots clamp post - it's now a $200 bottle opener. The threads were really creaking in and out. Threads rolled. Re tap and be sure to clean it out and inspect for cracking at the thread root. It's not the bolt. Be sure it's not an npt tap.

gemship 04-07-2013 04:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by oldpotatoe (Post 1326011)
Thought of that, try tomorrow but I'm worried I'll get the tape stuck in the der hanger or it will break off.

Also gonna try a steel bolt also.

Thanks for all the posts...

No worries, when you feel the tap doesn't want to go further just back off and clean it with a rag certainly no forcing it. (I always used compressed air and blow it off, my days in the machine shop) eventually you'll chase the galling out. Good luck and keep us posted!

51mondays 04-07-2013 06:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gemship (Post 1326222)
No worries, when you feel the tap doesn't want to go further just back off and clean it with a rag certainly no forcing it. (I always used compressed air and blow it off, my days in the machine shop) eventually you'll chase the galling out. Good luck and keep us posted!

well said

i use an aluminium bolt - i figure if the bolt gets screwed (excuse the pun) at least its disposable...

oldpotatoe 04-07-2013 07:07 PM

Update
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by gemship (Post 1326222)
No worries, when you feel the tap doesn't want to go further just back off and clean it with a rag certainly no forcing it. (I always used compressed air and blow it off, my days in the machine shop) eventually you'll chase the galling out. Good luck and keep us posted!

Bought a new tap, fresh bottle of cutting oil..ran the tap, actually went thru from both sides pretty easy..bolted RD to frame and.........same thing along with some really colorful sparks. So...swapped for a steel bolt. And all seems ok..still not sure *** is going on..I'm gonna blame it on Ben.

:eek:

Doohhh!!

cfox 04-07-2013 07:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AgilisMerlin (Post 1325945)
this just reminded me to re-copper paste my ride.

http://aws.bikepartsmart.com/media/c...image_2915.jpg

On my Ti bike I pull my BB and RD once a year and re copper paste. After reading this thread I just popped my RD and re pasted. It's a DA Di2 RD, that has a Ti bolt, right?

Tony T 04-07-2013 07:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by oldpotatoe (Post 1326308)
Bought a new tap, fresh bottle of cutting oil..ran the tap, actually went thru from both sides pretty easy..bolted RD to frame and.........same thing along with some really colorful sparks. So...swapped for a steel bolt. And all seems ok..still not sure *** is going on..I'm gonna blame it on Ben.

:eek:

Doohhh!!

Same Ti bolt, or did you try a new Ti bolt?
[Edit: Never mind, I see you used a new bolt]

AgilisMerlin 04-07-2013 07:55 PM

Funky design

Merlin decided to put in a top and bottom stainless sleeve on their integrated headsets/head tube design

I am questioning at this point / it is bonded and was never meant to be removed in the first place. These inserts are what the bearings sit on / cane creek is-2


Curious if ti will eat the stainless over time, like it eats the shimano cups 6500. I have had large chunks of bb cups disappear over time?

AgilisMerlin 04-07-2013 08:10 PM

maybe i am wrong,

this looks like ti insert. anyone know?

curious

http://autobus.cyclingnews.com/photo...erlin/fork.jpg

firerescuefin 04-07-2013 09:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AgilisMerlin (Post 1326328)
Funky design

Merlin decided to put in a top and bottom stainless sleeve on their integrated headsets/head tube design

I am questioning at this point / it is bonded and was never meant to be removed in the first place. These inserts are what the bearings sit on / cane creek is-2


Curious if ti will eat the stainless over time, like it eats the shimano cups 6500. I have had large chunks of bb cups disappear over time?

They (merlin integrated sleeve) were designed to be replaceable. CK inset is a traditional/much better solution.

AgilisMerlin 04-07-2013 09:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by firerescuefin (Post 1326380)
They (merlin integrated sleeve) were designed to be replaceable. CK inset is a traditional/much better solution.

what specific tools need to pull and push the inserts, curious. King specific?

oh, do you know whether the original sleeves are ti?

firerescuefin 04-07-2013 09:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AgilisMerlin (Post 1326386)
what specific tools need to pull and push the inserts, curious. King specific?

oh, do you know whether the original sleeves are ti?

They were stainless. Not sure about the tools, but the LBS said the inset install was super easy and gave me back the old cups. They were treated. I can shoot a couple of pics with the inset installed if you want.

AgilisMerlin 04-07-2013 09:29 PM

thankyou

oldpotatoe 04-08-2013 05:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tony T (Post 1326316)
Same Ti bolt, or did you try a new Ti bolt?
[Edit: Never mind, I see you used a new bolt]

Actually tried 3 different ti bolts..all samo.
Steel 'seems' ok. Gonna see if it comes out OK tomorrow. Daughter-in-law/Son having a baby in about 3 hours so kinda busy today(yep, at the 'puter now, going to babysit their 2 year old while the parents, 'get it done' at the hospital..

rePhil 04-08-2013 07:00 AM

Congratulations Grandpa!

oldpotatoe 04-08-2013 07:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rePhil (Post 1326469)
Congratulations Grandpa!

Grazie

Birddog 04-08-2013 09:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by oldpotatoe (Post 1326451)
Actually tried 3 different ti bolts..all samo.
Steel 'seems' ok. Gonna see if it comes out OK tomorrow. Daughter-in-law/Son having a baby in about 3 hours so kinda busy today(yep, at the 'puter now, going to babysit their 2 year old while the parents, 'get it done' at the hospital..

Is the forthcoming package a CampMAgNolo or a SHEmano?


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