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-   -   DT Swiss rims - what are they thinking??? (https://forums.thepaceline.net/showthread.php?t=126685)

67-59 03-23-2013 10:11 AM

DT Swiss rims - what are they thinking???
 
So I've just spent 45 minutes trying to mount a GP 4000s tire on a new DT Swiss RR 465 rim. I've been using the GP 4000s for years on OP rims, and have never had a problem mounting a tire in a couple of minutes. I decided to give the DTs a try after hearing from numerous sources that they are higher quality, more precise rims. Now, 45 minutes later, the first tire I've tried to mount still isn't fully on...and at this rate it could be another 45 minutes of wrestling. My thumbs are cracking.

I've tried everything I know about how to stretch a tire over a rim, with no success. There has to be a trick, or DT would've been out of business years ago...right? Anyone want to share the DT club secret with me?

What on earth do people do when they're out on a road and get a flat with these wheels...or is that just not an option?

gomango 03-23-2013 10:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 67-59 (Post 1317392)
So I've just spent 45 minutes trying to mount a GP 4000s tire on a new DT Swiss RR 465 rim. I've been using the GP 4000s for years on OP rims, and have never had a problem mounting a tire in a couple of minutes. I decided to give the DTs a try after hearing from numerous sources that they are higher quality, more precise rims. Now, 45 minutes later, the first tire I've tried to mount still isn't fully on...and at this rate it could be another 45 minutes of wrestling. My thumbs are cracking.

I've tried everything I know about how to stretch a tire over a rim, with no success. There has to be a trick, or DT would've been out of business years ago...right? Anyone want to share the DT club secret with me?

What on earth do people do when they're out on a road and get a flat with these wheels...or is that just not an option?

I am with you on this matter.

Buy a couple of Kool Stop tire bead jacks.

You will win a major victory over problem rims.

I did, even with the dreaded Challenge Parigi Roubaixs.

thirdgenbird 03-23-2013 10:17 AM

I've got dt 585 rims and recall them being downright easy in comparison to my Campagnolo or wheelsmith accelerator rims.

SPOKE 03-23-2013 10:18 AM

Talc (baby powder) the tube and inside of the tire. It really helps with getting the last bit of tire to slide over the rim during install.

cmbicycles 03-23-2013 10:33 AM

Make sure the last section of tire you try to put on is at the valve stem, that way you can squeeze the tire bead into the slightly shallower middle section of the rim all the way around to give yourself all the extra space you can manage.

oldpotatoe 03-23-2013 10:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 67-59 (Post 1317392)
So I've just spent 45 minutes trying to mount a GP 4000s tire on a new DT Swiss RR 465 rim. I've been using the GP 4000s for years on OP rims, and have never had a problem mounting a tire in a couple of minutes. I decided to give the DTs a try after hearing from numerous sources that they are higher quality, more precise rims. Now, 45 minutes later, the first tire I've tried to mount still isn't fully on...and at this rate it could be another 45 minutes of wrestling. My thumbs are cracking.

I've tried everything I know about how to stretch a tire over a rim, with no success. There has to be a trick, or DT would've been out of business years ago...right? Anyone want to share the DT club secret with me?

What on earth do people do when they're out on a road and get a flat with these wheels...or is that just not an option?

THIN rim strips, make sure the first side is in the center, deepest. Yep, these and 415 are challenging. 440 don't seem to have the issue.

bluesea 03-23-2013 10:50 AM

I like tight rims and 4000s'. My Neutrons are a couple of notches tighter than my 465s.

buldogge 03-23-2013 11:25 AM

Yeah...The older Nucleons are the hardest rims I've ever mounted tires on...especially combined with Conti GP4000s!

Schwalbe Ultremo ZXs are easier to mount and ride great...but...they are more fragile than the Contis.

In addition to talc, you can always throw the tires in the dryer on low for a few minutes...

Additionally, the steel-cored park levers usually finish the job if needed.

-Mark in St. Louis

Quote:

Originally Posted by bluesea (Post 1317417)
I like tight rims and 4000s'. My Neutrons are a couple of notches tighter than my 465s.


Len J 03-23-2013 11:35 AM

In the last week I've changed tires (Pro4's) on both DT and neutrons..........the neutrons came closest to beating me.

Len

soulspinner 03-23-2013 12:37 PM

Talc and if yer home throw the tires in the dryer for a few minutes. Outside on cold days with flats i have trouble with my arthritic hands with my 415 and 465 rims.

jpw 03-23-2013 12:50 PM

wheel in freezer, tire in oven.

soulspinner 03-23-2013 12:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jpw (Post 1317462)
wheel in freezer, tire in oven.

:)

rphetteplace 03-23-2013 01:21 PM

ride Michelins :)

bluesea 03-23-2013 02:00 PM

The last time I helped with a flat out on the road, trying to get the first bead on, the whole tire kept falling off the rim. The first bead on a 4000s' snaps* in the Neutrons to where you can forget about adjusting your labels even just a smidge.

beestee 03-23-2013 02:18 PM

it's likely you had a very forgiving rim prior to this. conti's are tight across the line. with virtually every other brand of tire, bare hands is fine, but conti's are way easier with a tire lever. in my mechanic days i couldn't even mount new ones without a lever.

at least you don't have a campy rim. those things are outta control...

Grant McLean 03-23-2013 03:25 PM

As has been discussed to death on most forums,
the difficulty of installing a tire is determined by the combination
of the tolerances between both the rim bed and the tire bead.

Given that you may already own a wheelset that has difficulty mounting,
keep in mind:

Conti tires are among the tightest.
Vittoria tires are loose, stretch a lot after 1 install.
Thin rim strips are key - forget about velox tape, it's way too thick,
which makes the inner diameter of the rim bed larger, making
the tire harder to install.

-g

fourflys 03-23-2013 03:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jpw (Post 1317462)
wheel in freezer, tire in oven.

who has a freezer that big?? :eek:

54ny77 03-23-2013 03:58 PM

i have 465's and run that same combo, no problems at all.

make sure you use a very, very thin rim strip. makes all the difference in the world. i've had velox cloth and another rim strip (performance bike shop blue plastic strip) on there prior and could not get any tire on there without losing life and limb.

fyi i use zipp red plastic rim strip.

rice rocket 03-23-2013 04:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fourflys (Post 1317514)
who has a freezer that big?? :eek:

You do, it's your backyard. ;)

cachagua 03-23-2013 06:14 PM

Fiberglass-reinforced strapping tape makes a great thin rim strip.

Are those little rubber plugs some rim makers sell any use? I've never tried 'em. But, couldn't get much thinner than nothing at all. . .

fourflys 03-23-2013 09:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rice rocket (Post 1317526)
You do, it's your backyard. ;)

very true... lots of things shrink here... :help: :banana:

svelocity 03-23-2013 10:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Grant McLean (Post 1317512)
As has been discussed to death on most forums

Pretty much every topic has been discussed to death but we still come back and discuss it some more. :help::)

Louis 03-23-2013 10:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by svelocity (Post 1317643)
Pretty much every topic has been discussed to death but we still come back and discuss it some more. :help::)

What's your favorite way to glue tubulars? ;)

SoCalSteve 03-24-2013 01:02 AM

I love Conti GP 4000S tires...I sold a set of DT wheels cuz they were impossible to mount...they don't play together well. Either sell the wheelset or try a different tire...seriously!!!

Louis 03-24-2013 01:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SoCalSteve (Post 1317691)
Either sell the wheelset or try a different tire...seriously!!!

I'd try Michelin PR4 (or PR3 if you can find some leftovers cheap) - It's not as if there's a massive difference between that and the Conti. I've ridden both the Conti GP 4000's and PR3's quite a bit and there are some ride differences, but not enough that they would prevent me from trying the Michelins on that wheel.

dgauthier 03-24-2013 07:04 AM

I always damage the tube when I try to use tire levers.

I swab a little soapy water on the inside of the last bit of the bead with a kitchen sponge. Not enough to get the outside of the bead wet -- so my thumbs still have grip -- just enough to lubricate the bead. Works every time.

When changing a flat out on the road the tire has stretched out enough that it can be removed and replaced very easily.

godfrey1112000 03-24-2013 10:05 AM

Cross Training with DT Swiss
 
some of the toughest workouts has been mounting Conti Attack/Force, the Gatorskins go on easy

same fear, don't flat on the road,

I did purchase the Park Tire mounting that seeds the tire in place, works great, but have not seen it available for a while

five minutes in the dryer in a pillow case also helps


Quote:

Originally Posted by 67-59 (Post 1317392)
So I've just spent 45 minutes trying to mount a GP 4000s tire on a new DT Swiss RR 465 rim. I've been using the GP 4000s for years on OP rims, and have never had a problem mounting a tire in a couple of minutes. I decided to give the DTs a try after hearing from numerous sources that they are higher quality, more precise rims. Now, 45 minutes later, the first tire I've tried to mount still isn't fully on...and at this rate it could be another 45 minutes of wrestling. My thumbs are cracking.

I've tried everything I know about how to stretch a tire over a rim, with no success. There has to be a trick, or DT would've been out of business years ago...right? Anyone want to share the DT club secret with me?

What on earth do people do when they're out on a road and get a flat with these wheels...or is that just not an option?


67-59 03-24-2013 05:27 PM

Thanks for all the feedback.

Re the PR4s: are these more flat-resistant than the PR3s? I used to ride PR3s, but switched because I flatted so often. Since riding Contis, I usually wear the tire out before I flat.

Other thoughts for "loose" tires that ride well and are pretty flat resistant? Vittorio Rubino Pros?

54ny77 03-24-2013 05:36 PM

OP--what kind of rim strip are you using? It just may be too thick.

Seriously, your solution might be a $5 permanent fix.

I have used Conti GP4000s, Gatorskin, and Vittoria CX clinchers on those same rims, without issues. I posted above that I use Zipp rim strip. It's skinny, leaving the entire rim sidewall open and unencumbered, i.e., the tire bead seats fine.

An extra mm or two of rim strip material will make or break your experience. I had Velox tape on there once before, and NO way a Conti tire would fit.

Len J 03-24-2013 06:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 67-59 (Post 1317996)
Thanks for all the feedback.

Re the PR4s: are these more flat-resistant than the PR3s? I used to ride PR3s, but switched because I flatted so often. Since riding Contis, I usually wear the tire out before I flat.

Other thoughts for "loose" tires that ride well and are pretty flat resistant? Vittorio Rubino Pros?

I had just the opposite experience. Ymmv.

The pro 4's now come in endurance and service course.....the endurance have longer wear and more puncture resistance at the expense of grip and suppleness.

Len

dustyrider 03-24-2013 06:25 PM

Seriously consider the advice here. It's not DT it's not Conti. it's the term "standard." There truly is no such beast. Before buying new rubber mess with your strips, even just getting the first bead to sit in the lowest portion of the rim can make or break your experience!

AgilisMerlin 03-24-2013 07:59 PM

pedros levers

http://www.pedros.com/product/levers/levers.jpg

wet the rim with water

or when screwed wet the rim with pledge/pedros bike lust etc..

how much are is not snapping over - 3 - inches ?


my vittoria's fit like loose jeans on open pro

bluesea 03-24-2013 09:48 PM

Out of laziness I just put Velox on the Neutrons and 465s. The increased effort is noticeable, but not a deal breaker. I tightened up my technique and use Lezyne levers which are short, narrow, and *thin* with a *flat* back. Its thinness is the key--that and the small and well shaped tips.

They make Pedros levers look like something from the Flintstones, although Pedros do have well designed tips. Lezyne levers are not burly--they don't have to be if you hold the lever right. With that set up I switch tubes on the road standing up with one end of the wheel resting on my knees.

AgilisMerlin 03-24-2013 09:57 PM

i take that as a compliment :eek: levers and all

bluesea 03-24-2013 10:04 PM

^ It is! Pedros are the best levers for most tire/rim combos.

When I was having issues with my first Neutrons, and went to the LBS to pick up some Pedros, looking at them it was obvious they weren't the right tool for the job. Bigger levers increase tension as they work. Smaller levers decrease tension. Lezynes are the new Pedros for these situations.


http://imageshack.us/a/img705/9898/imggje.jpg

67-59 03-24-2013 10:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 54ny77 (Post 1318000)
OP--what kind of rim strip are you using? It just may be too thick.

Seriously, your solution might be a $5 permanent fix.

It's called Continental Easy Tape. Can't find specs with the exact thickness, but Excel Sports says "installing tires is far easier than using thicker style tapes." Clearly lower profile than Velox...so it looks like these issues are occurring even though I have a "thin" rim strip.:eek:

Regarding the other comments: I have tried several of the tips given in this thread already, from soapy water to baby powder (not at the same time:no:), and there is still a good 3-4 inches that isn't getting onto the rim. Not even close. My wife vetoed the dryer idea (even in an old pillowcase), and anyway, my dryer wouldn't be with me if I ever flat - I want to get comfortable changing these with the tools I could have with me on the road.

Maybe I'll try the Lezyne levers, otherwise maybe some PR4s. If those ideas don't work, I'll take SoCalSteve's advice and probably have an RR465 smashing party in my back yard. Anyone who brings beer would be invited.

54ny77 03-24-2013 10:56 PM

black or orangeish/yellow? i dunno about the black stuff, but i had the conti orangish/yellow stuff awhile back. too thick.

try this: http://www.excelsports.com/main.asp?...jor=1&minor=38

seriously, if it doesn't work for you, i'll buy it from you for your cost (i need a set anyway for a new pair of wheels).

i have used them successfully on a variety of rims from dt, mavic and velocity.

when installing, use a bic pen of something plastic and non-marring to property seat it right smack evenly in the middle--MAKE SURE it doesn't "ride" up along the rim sidewall/bead hook.

fyi the zipp rim strip is 16mm wide vs. conti's 18mm. those addt'l 2mm can be a ballbuster!


Quote:

Originally Posted by 67-59 (Post 1318150)
It's called Continental Easy Tape. Can't find specs with the exact thickness, but Excel Sports says "installing tires is far easier than using thicker style tapes." Clearly lower profile than Velox...so it looks like these issues are occurring even though I have a "thin" rim strip.:eek:

Regarding the other comments: I have tried several of the tips given in this thread already, from soapy water to baby powder (not at the same time:no:), and there is still a good 3-4 inches that isn't getting onto the rim. Not even close. My wife vetoed the dryer idea (even in an old pillowcase), and anyway, my dryer wouldn't be with me if I ever flat - I want to get comfortable changing these with the tools I could have with me on the road.

Maybe I'll try the Lezyne levers, otherwise maybe some PR4s. If those ideas don't work, I'll take SoCalSteve's advice and probably have an RR465 smashing party in my back yard. Anyone who brings beer would be invited.


buldogge 03-24-2013 11:18 PM

I've been using the Schwalbe "cloth" rim tape for the last couple years. It's super thin nylon material...light, tough, and comes in both 15mm and 19mm.

I just keep a roll of the 15 around and have used it on both regular and 23mm rims without issue:

http://www.amazon.com/Schwalbe-Bicyc...walbe+rim+tape

-Mark in St. Louis

67-59 03-25-2013 07:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 54ny77 (Post 1318160)
black or orangeish/yellow? i dunno about the black stuff, but i had the conti orangish/yellow stuff awhile back. too thick.

try this: http://www.excelsports.com/main.asp?...jor=1&minor=38

seriously, if it doesn't work for you, i'll buy it from you for your cost (i need a set anyway for a new pair of wheels).

I have the Conti in black...but I'll give the Zipp a try. Just ordered the Lezyne tire levers as well.

Thanks!

Bob Ross 03-25-2013 08:08 AM

I can't offer any answers...because I've never had the problem the OP describes. I use DT rims almost exclusively; my stable currently contains RR1.1, RR465, and whatever the stock rims on a set of DT 1450 Mon Chasserals is called. And I've used Conti GP400S tires exclusively for the past ~4 or 5 years.

To me they're no harder to mount when new than any other tire/rim combo I've tried (and fwiw they're a lot easier to mount than Michelin Pro3 Race tires on those same rims). And once mounted, getting the tires off & back on the rims for roadside flat repair is almost embarassingly easy.


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