Out of spec custom frame: advice sought
 

I’m looking for some advice on how to handle an out of spec custom frame. I’m UK based for clarity, as is the builder.

My new (disc) XCR frame arrived this week. As very brief background, the frame is coming from a relatively small builder who is looking to go full time and expand his business, and I was offered this frame at cost, on the condition of the bike being used for publicity, some shows, and the builder having some input on the final spec and paint. It has still not been inexpensive, I’d add.

There are 1 or 2 very minor quibbles, but the crucial point is this: while the frame looks beautiful, it falls some way short of the agreed tyre clearance. I specified that while I doubted I’d ever run 32s, I wanted that option, and certainly I wanted to be able to run 30s with mudguards.

28c Pirellis, fitted on 21mm internal/29mm external width wheels, actually have barely 2mm clearance at the chainstay on this new frame. For reference, my rim brake Ridley, which has an ‘official’ max clearance of 26, has slightly more clearance at the chainstay with a 28c tyre.

I have contacted the builder, who has been receptive. Given he hasn’t questioned it at all, in fact, I actually suspect he already knew about this.
In any case, he has offered me 3 options:

1 - That he reduces the price by 20%, and I accept the frame as is;
2 - That he constructs and fits a new rear triangle. There would be neither a discount nor a cost for this. He estimates a ~6 week turnaround time (with the delay coming from the painter).
3 - That he amends the existing rear triangle as far as possible. He has said that he suspects he’ll able to get an extra ~2mm per side without having to fit new stays. No discount has been mentioned in connection with this, but neither has one been ruled out, either.

I'm considering these and have said I will revert.

It’s worth adding as context that the bike was supposed to be with me before the end of October 2023, and I have some of my biggest events of the year coming up in the next 2 months.

Perhaps I’m being unreasonable, but I’m not wholly happy with any of the options above.

First, I’m not terribly keen on a disc frame in 2024 where the max tyre size really is a 28. Second, and while I know little about stainless steel and framebuilding, I’m somewhat uneasy with the prospect of the stays being manipulated in situ. Finally, given I’m currently putting in the miles and training for key events, and would like to get used to any bike I intend to ride in them, 6 weeks without a dedicated road bike isn’t a very satisfactory situation. Also, given the builder’s historic timing, I think 6 weeks is likely a best case scenario rather than a hard limit.

With all of that in mind, does anyone have any advice or good suggestions here?

Thanks.

The sooner you accept the fact that some degree of compromise is necessary on both sides, I doubt you will ever be satisfied no matter what the restitution is.

It happens.

Good that the builder is being responsive and willing to work with you.

I think the builder is offering reasonable options, unless you are suggesting you just want all your money back and want to walk away.

Choose which best fits your needs. I would take the long term view which gets you what you will be happy with years from now, which is likely option 2.

Custom isn't always rainbows and sunshine. Paceliners tend to shy away from talking about this stuff when they are always suggesting custom, but I think happens more than many realize. This situation seems like an annoying bump in the journey which hopefully can be resolved.

You left out a critical data point. What do those tires measure out as on those rims?

If I was intending to keep the bike I'd get a new rear triangle and accept the delay, not counting on the bike for the events. If I thought I'd have the bike for a while then move it along I'd take the discount and then sell it when the next frame was ready, as is.

Very annoying.

I think I’d pick #2. That should get you the bike you wanted, just much delayed.

#1 is a non-starter as the bike won’t meet your needs. And resale is likely impacted as many buyers will want 32mm clearance as well. Unless your initial discount makes up for that and you think you can sell it on in a year or two without losing your shirt.

#3 might work, but like you I’d be skeptical of how much cleaner he can massage out of the existing stays. But if one of the regular frame builders here chimes in and says it’s possible, then maybe this gets you on the bike faster.

This is a very important point. My 28mm tires actually measure close to 30mm on my rims.

You said it was at cost and a new builder? I am under the impression that stainless is a little bit different than regular steel and would worry that something down the line would go wrong.

I would say take the 20% discount and call it a day.

My view here is that the OP engaged an up-and-coming junior builder to build a frame at a significant discount (what does "at cost" mean in this scenario???). In this case, IMO, you have to accept that some details may be missed.

There is a reason you pay a huge premium to get Dave Kirk, or Firefly or No22 to build a bike. They have decades of experience and get the details right.

A garage builder who is trying to establish a business and sells you a frame "at cost" - you can not have the same expectations.

I also would like to see an answer to my actual tire width question. We are living in a weird time where published tire sizes are near meaningless. If that 28mm tire measures out to 31mm on super wide rims that are common today, I think the builder is off the hook. If you asked for clearance for 32's, that should mean 32mm.

I get the frustrations though. It sucks to order, wait for something, and when you get it, it's not what you wanted.

Uggh, what a bummer situation.

Realistically, how long do you want to keep the bike? And when answering this question, keep in mind that you're off to a bad start with this frame and the 'lingering grudge' effect may effect your answer, depending on your personal view of the world etc.

If your heart is in keeping it a long time, option 2 is best. It addresses the problem. Six weeks off the bike sucks but will seem short over the long term.

If your heart is not in it, option 1 is doable.

Framebuilders, what do you think of option 3? How much clearance can be added in situ?

I think Alistair has the right idea. I think #2 is probably the best option, but I think if some framebuilders can chime in about if 3 is a good idea that may work out. I assume this means crimping the stays more? Are they currently crimped/dimpled for clearance?

A good point. By my (admittedly cheap) digital calipers, it is ~29.0 (I've taken several measurements at various points on the tyre which range between 28.7 and 29.2mm).

I think I would have the new rear end put on

Chainstays currently crimped/dimpled slightly. I haven't (yet) asked for the technical details as to how the process might work.

Some fair points here. 'At cost' means me covering the actual cost of the tubing, painting, tooling and consumables. It works out to about 60-65% of what 'typical retail' would be.

He's rather more than a garage builder, but yes, I agree we'd be having a different conversation if this had been the work of a Kirk or similar*.

*actually, we wouldn't, because a) I couldn't see it happening and b) I'd be much less willing to compromise in that scenario.

Definitely this too.

Oh, I see you responded with 29mm real width. Hmmm. I guess it really depends how set you were on running a 30-32mm tire. If a slightly fat 28 is what you'll run 90% of the time, I'd be tempted to call it close enough and chalk it up as a learning experience.

Assuming "at cost" is in the ballpark of a production metal frame (Trashcan Venge or CAAD13), you're still doing ok on the money/cost end, I think.

See above: ~29.0mm (28.7-29.2)

Sorry to hear about your troubles; it is never fun when something that is supposed bring you joy gives you a headache instead :) I would just have them redo the rear triangle. I imagine you have another bike to get you through your events in the next 2 months.

This situation is all too familiar with me. Personally I would give the frame back and since it's not what you had wanted, take the chances on refund. If the builder wants to promote it no harm no foul you should be refunded. Then order up a Ti frame/fork from XACD and call it good. And, sorry, you get what you pay for.

I'm not sure this is fully accurate. A number of threads on this forum discuss receiving frames from storied high end costly builders that aren't right. If this was a frame that I intended to be my main bike for an extended time I would get it fixed properly. It matters also how you feel about the frame when all is said and done. I passed on the frame made for me by a builder who gets loads of kudos on PL because I couldn't get around the one error that wasn't fixable, it just bothered me. (mis-located rear brake hose exit point from DT conflicting with FD cable path). The buyer was going to either run it eTap or 1X so the issue disappeared for him.

So I don't think that paying a high price guarantees not having issues. Reputation for both quality and delivery time matter, not just that the builder has a lot of experience. When I posted that I was getting a frame from the builder I mentioned above, I did receive PMs from people who had also had issues. So, yes, going to Kirk, Bingham, Firefly, etc. is going to guarantee that you'll be thrilled with the bike. But paying the same amount in some circumstances is not a guarantee. And then of course there are folks like Rock Lobster who deliver a consistently appreciated result for less than some of the peer builders.

Option 4

Full refund and find another builder.

When someone shows you what they're capable of, or not; believe them the first time.

I would keep the bike as is and accept that it only clears a 28ish tire. Take the discount or negotiate a little more if need be and ride the bike for a while. If it doesn't work out and you don't like the ride you can always sell it! That is likely the simplest of solutions IMHO.

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This is what I would do.

The OP said he would rarely run a 32 and wanted to run a 30 tire. His current 28's measure 29 and fit. This is a lot of stress over a couple mms. I'd just accept it and ride it.

This isnt a knock on the OP, as I understand where he is coming from but a realistic question: Do people really think there is a significant ride difference in literally a mm or two of tire width?

In honesty this is likely where I'm at. My current plan is to take it on a long ride down some less than ideal roads at the weekend and see if there's any issues with stones/road debris with the 28 in the back. Assuming not, I might be inclined to make the best of a bad situation and move on.

If I do find stuff catching with a 28, then something will have to change.

A good road bike is going to ride well with any tire 25mm and up most of the time. I don't mind throwing fatter rubber than a 28mm if the bike will see some mixed terrain, but a 28mm will do fine on just about any surface that isn't chunky or loose. Having said that if I ordered a bike and it wasn't right it might induce an irrationally bad taste in my mouth while riding it. 25-30% off may take the taste away though!?!

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Good call.

Where are you at in the UK? How are the roads over there, in general? I'm really interested in doing more european riding in the next few years. Are your events planned in the UK, or farther out?

Size of frame? Just thinking ahead.......:)

I don’t want to derail this thread… but boy is it a timely issue for me. In late 2022 I placed an order with a small European builder for medium-reach rim brake road bike frameset, to accommodate up to a 35mm tire. I received the frame in January. I wanted to check clearance so I placed a wheel with a 32mm tire in the rear dropouts- the tire was almost touching the seat tube (maybe~2mm clearance. So I measured the chainstay. It was 10mm shorter than indicated on the CAD drawing, 415 instead of 425! I emailed the builder who initially seemed skeptical but eventually said to ship it back and that he’d correct it (I did wonder how though).
While shipping the frame to me took only 8 days, returning the frame to Europe took 6 weeks, partly due to the frame being routed through LAX (I’m in New York) and then due to customs on his end who wanted to charge him 450 Euros duty on the frame! Somehow after a lot of finagling he got out of that.
Long story short (and not surprisingly) he contacted me to say he can’t fix it and has to build me a whole new frame. He’s just collected the materials and will be starting soon.

I would some hard thought to how often you might want to run 30 or 32mm tires.
If it is not often I would keep as is, otherwise option #2.
Do you have other bikes that can use 32mm tire?

I'm in the Chiltern Hills, about 40 miles NW of London: https://www.chilterns.org.uk/

Road quality is, ahem, mixed. Generally the roads in the UK are pretty poor, especially rural ones, and they have noticeably declined in the last decade.

I'm doing the Fred Whitton (in the Lake District) in May, and I'm targeting sub 7 hours, which will be...interesting. I've done it a couple of times, and I'd still say it's the best (and hardest) sportive I've ever done, and that includes the Etape.

The Italian alps remain my favourite place to ride a bike in Europe, though if you want quiet, good quality roads, nice weather and challenging terrain, Spain is hard to beat IME.

I’d go option 2, get it done the way you wanted. Not sure what you paid, but 20% off frame price that was not built as you wanted seems silly to take. Option 3 might be ok but again with option 1 being available I’d do that

I've spent some time in Scotland, not quite the same as England, but road quality is similar. But, loads of gravel, farm track, and trails, so a burly gravel bike, mostercross, or fast hardtail would make a nice do-it-all.

+1. I'd want just what was specified; being able to throw 32s on with fair clearance seems nice to have in your back pocket on the bike. I'd wait the 6 weeks and figure something else out for the event if possible.

I'd take option #2. Get what you originally wanted. On option #3, my concern is that the builder - especially someone starting out - may not know how far a tube can be crimped and manipulated. The bike might be fine for the first few thousand miles, but then develop cracks afterwards. On option #1, I'd probably forget about the discount over the years, but it'd forever bug me knowing I didn't get what I originally wanted and I'd get a sharp reminder of that anytime I went to put in a 32.

This^^^
 

THIS^^^

The other thing to consider about a new rear triangle is the experience level of the builder. Do you want someone who has not built a ton of frames to cut apart a frame and put a new rear triangle on. Things can go wrong...

True story- In the 90's I had a nice custom Columbus ELOS frame. I crashed it and had a different builder replace the toptube. I did this because the original builder was busy, it was June and I wouldn't have gotten the repair back until late fall.
So I had another builder replace the toptube. This builder is now a legend, but in the 90's he was just getting going. Most of his experience was in a particular type of hardtail (mine was a road bike with pretty thin wall tubing).
When I got the bike back it looked perfect. Part of that was that he used the same painter. But he ovalized the seatube, and the bike rode like a pile- It was not longer straight.
Lesson learned.

Whoo boy….forget about tire size. I hope you’re geared correctly. Hardknott Pass! 😅

Something to consider: My 700x28 labeled Panaracers measure 30mm on my Light Bicycle carbon rims* (rim brake). All of the tires on my disc rims measure wider than the labeled size to some degree. A tubeless setup generally produces a wider tire than using an innertube.

It's more likely than not that whatever tires you run going forward will measure at or wider than the labeled width. So, if your new or corrected frame can accept a tire no wider than 32mm are you going to have to purchase 700x30 tires? It wasn't long ago that those didn't even exist and there aren't a whole lot to choose from now.

I can understand most of the positions taken in this thread, but perhaps having the builder do what he can with regard to additional crimping/dimpling and getting the frame on the road now is the best option for you and the builder.




*bike is second hand and I don't know the internal width as I haven't had the tires off yet.

And from my experience last fall in Wales and the Peak District - don't forget the sheep crap on the trails and roads. Loads of crap. And when it rains...just be sure your bike has, er, mudguards. :eek:

I'd opt for option #2 if you trust him.

If you take option #1 you'll always hate the frame because it isn't what you ordered.
If you take option #3 you won't get enough gained clearance and might compromise the tubing too.

The builder is being fair. Things happen. He has offered to make you the frame you ordered with a small delay. I wouldn't expect a discount. I would expect return shipping covered but not a dealbreaker. Do you trust him? Do you know where he is located? I just mention this because some builders disappear especially if they're pressed against a wall. I heard a recent story about a paid Gaulzetti frame that was returned for the wrong paint color and it just disappeared along with the builder (https://forums.thepaceline.net/showp...2&postcount=17)

Even if he squishes the current rear end to give you 2 more mm that overall isn't enough and might compromise the tubing. I think you should aim for 5-6 mm of clearance with the max tire desired "as measured" i.e. a tire that actually measures 32 mm (be that a 700x30 measuring wide or a 700x33 measuring narrow or whatnot).

Oh boy what a downer
 

Personally I’d say with races coming up just race the hell out of it if you’re happy with race day clearance and worry about guards etc over a pint ,if you go for a partial re-build get some advice [not off your builder]about how happy XCR is about being reheated and /or crimped again .As a fellow Brit I’am happy to give him a huge shout out for doing the Whitton ,this event and the Dragon Ride in Wales [still run ?] are the original two hardest UK sportives just huge distance non stop up and down on some of hardest passes the country has ,every other ‘hard’ sportive here is trying to copy them ,he’ll know about the sheep if they’re not on the road they’re the folk watching

Yup... from last year.