OT-ish: Seattle vs SF
 

The S/O and I have been in SF for about a year and we're finding that the drawbacks outweigh the benefits and have started thinking about Seattle. Some things that have been killing us about SF are:

* Laughable levels of sketch
* Insane CoL for what you get
* Tourist hellscape
* My allergies
* S/O is a runner and hills are killing her ankles
* Outer Richmond somehow has ZERO decent grocery stores ?!?

We're gonna take a look at Seattle in a month or so and I was curious how the road riding up there compares with SF and the Bay Area.

Ummm…Seattle has pretty much modeled itself after SF. PM if you want details about smaller areas north of SEA.

Honestly, in my experience, Seattle is pretty bad along all those dimensions too.

Obviously some things are neighborhood specific, but I wouldn't, as a general matter, say Seattle actually has an advantage among any of those characteristics you listed. Plus the weather is worse most of the year

Are you looking specifically to live in a big city? On the west coast?

Do you need to be IN the city? Seems you can solve all of those issues if you migrate out a bit?

You've pretty much summed up West Coast urban living :-P
Perhaps consider a smaller city?

KJ

Bellingham, Wa is really nice.
But the PNW has a pretty bleak rainy season/winter compared to norcal

When I go to the bay area, I don't even go into SF. It's really nice just over the bridge and tons of fantastic riding. I would love to move into the Bay Area one day.

Re: Road riding. I moved to Seattle last year from San Diego. I knew it was gonna rain…but I wasn’t prepared for just how rainy the winter was. I ended up riding a lot of mountain bikes in the winter and didn’t touch my road bike until spring.

Regarding what you dislike about SF, Seattle is much better (and as somebody said neighborhood dependent). However, the good thing about Seattle is that housing is anecdotally cheaper than SF. Yeah there are some sketchy places downtown, but on the whole the city is fine. My friends have some bad allergies in the spring; worse than they did in SD. Lastly, lots of good flat places to run.

Seattle’s great. The winter is rough for riding, but you find other things to do

Can I ask what you were expecting from SF?

That might help steer you in a better direction

Also can you elaborate on “laughable levels of sketch?” Are you referring to smash and grabs or something more sinister?

Seattle doesn't have much sketch.

Cost of living is insane for what you get.

Not as much of a tourist hellscape.

My allergies were better in Seattle.

There are flat-ish areas to run.

There are good grocery stores all over.


Have you considered the East Bay at all?

I moved back to Seattle only about a year ago, so I wouldn't say I'm all that qualified to pass judgement.

To your points,

• There are sketchy places here, too, but not to the extent and level as San Francisco. I sometimes need to ride through / bike commute through one of the larger homeless encampments and I don't feel threatened or unsafe when I do.
• CoL is high. Slightly lower than SF, but still high. Counterintuitively, though, other cities in WA have shot up in costs after COVID. So if you're going to come up here, you might as well go for Seattle and its higher wages.
• Seattle proper is very hilly. As much as SF, depending neighborhood-to-neighborhood. But there are some places that are flatter, too. There are some nice parks for running, but nothing like Forest Park in Portland. Over here in West Seattle / Burien, I can put together a run almost 2 hours long that's 90% on trails that's an out-and-back with some variations (by which I mean that I'm not just running the same small loop over and over).
• I've been blessed to live in some great areas for riding. As a city, Seattle can be good. But it's not amazing. Santa Cruz and the southwest peninsula are far better. Sonoma county is far better. Up here, Bainbridge is good. Vashon is good. But the rain and darkness and general population density are real issues.

Portland is better than Seattle.

I moved FROM Seattle to Spokane 20-ish years ago. While i do miss the bright lights and big city life, I don't miss a cost of living that's near 2X of Spokane. I don't miss the many dull, dull and dreary days. When I lived there I used to tell folks I wasn't tan, it was rust. Seattle is a constant traffic jam. Sometimes I fly to Seattle and have to rent a car. It's like hand-to-hand combat.

I was born in the PNW. I love it but Seattle has turned into a place that I no longer desire to live.

Dave, I don't discount your other points, but Spokane real estate has gone up so much post-pandemic... compared to wages, it's not that different anymore. (Given what we're looking at for my inlaws in Spokane Valley.)

I’ve lived here since 1989. I agree with the notes above, and I count SF and Portland, OR among my favorite cities. My allergies find something not to like pretty much anywhere on the west coast, it seems.

Just wait a little. There's a huge glut of apartments and houses being built now and I'm figuring that the excess is going to bring things down. Spokane is still such a blue/collar town that it can't/won't support the large increases in price. There's absolutely no good reason for current prices here except greed.

Still far cheaper to live here than Seattle.

I moved from San Diego to Seattle to SF Bay Area.

I didn’t live in the “downtown” areas, but what you find problematic about SF is also very prevalent in Seattle, only with rain from October through June. If you get out of downtown Seattle, you’ll find some great neighborhoods and great parks, but the grey, cloudy, rainy winter is inescapable. I should add that I lived in upstate NY as a kid too.

I didn’t ride my bike much up there and mostly ran. Great trail running nearby. After the 5th winter, I couldn’t do it anymore, tried to get back to southern CA, and found, at the time, all the jobs for my wife were in the Bay Area. I’ve loved it here so far. We still contemplate moving to SoCal, but I think the variety of riding is better in NorCal.

Anyway, Seattle - I always suggest going in January or February to understand the winters, if thinking of moving there. If you go between July to October, it’s about as beautiful as any place can be for an outdoors enthusiast. Postcard beautiful everywhere you look. Fun place to explore.

Just don't visit in August or September. Huge bait and switch - days are glorious, produce and berries and crab a plenty. You get mesmerized, and then the other 10 months arrive and you find yourself going ***?????????? If you don't get out though before the end of the next July, you get caught again in the cycle.... again and again and again ; )

Now that's partly in jest but... I wouldn't ever come here for the road riding, and I live on Bainbridge Island where it is better than most places but its a small island after awhile. If you don't mind putting your bike in the car or riding 15-20 miles to get to the good stuff, then Seattle proper has a lot of other things going for it. And given the recent exhibits of the impacts of climate change around the country, as much as I hate, yes hate, the weather here, I do appreciate that we have it better than most places.

Where would I go in the Pacific NW as other options: Portland for a biggish City, although it too has many of the Seattle symptoms. Bellingham, Corvallis, Eugene, maybe Ashland, Bend if you like hotter, dryer, fly fishing, mountain biking and more brew pubs and food trucks than you know what to do with. If serious about Seattle and road riding - maybe out around Issaquah/Fall City, north around Edmonds/Mulkiteo and take ferry to Whidbey Island on a regular basis in summer; parts of the Peninsula are ok - Bainbridge, Poulsbo, Port Townsend. The trade off is that if you like to take advantage of city life, the driving is hell.

Spokane is a great town. Spent some time there as a little kid.
There was a fesitval at Riverfront Park every summer there - good memories...

I should mention that work is 100% remote for me, but my S/O is a clinical researcher so will be tied to a large medical campus for work. Portland is definitely on the prospective list, but I think a larger city is required, no matter what.

While we both drive, our only car is a stick shift and she hates it. I barely use the thing and we both prefer walking/transit/bike. I'll use my Ducati in a pinch if I need to get somewhere without carrying cargo.

With regards to CoL, we're not hurting by any means, but it does suck when you dump $3400/month into rent for a place with no backyard, storage, or garage and a quick glance at certain areas in Seattle (Ballard, West Seattle, etc) shows listings for entire homes for less. Ultimately, the 4 year plan is to bank until we can put a fat ass downpayment on a place of our own, so less waste on rent is better.

Seattle geography is very neighborhood dependent. We lived in Ballard for three years and it was one of the best places I’ve ever lived. Ballard has the advantage of very gradual hills (other than climbing up from the water), whereas neighborhoods like Queen Anne or Magnolia can mean you live on a 15% street.

I never felt that there was any lack of road riding—or riding of any type—and my friends and I rode year round. Yes, it gets wet but generally it’s pretty light rain and it doesn’t get that cold (I moved there from Denver, which is also a great place to ride but definitely can present more winter obstacles). Road rides around Mercer Island are awesome; gravel rides on the Olympic peninsula; MTB at Tiger…there’s so much riding.

If I was moving to the area I would strongly consider Bellingham.

3400 is pretty insane sounds like you might be overpaying to be honest. I can’t comment on Seattle but I’m from Oakland/Richmond and can tell you the East bay is much better when it comes to prices, space and overall crime

You can probably find a rental in El Cerrito/Albany/Berkeley for $2500-3000 no problem depending on your needs. Lower end of the scale would be a 2/1 apartment. Upper end would be a small home.

A lot more “suburban” which is what you seem to be looking for.

The entire west coast is a growing dumpster fire.

If you're considering Seattle: https://www.instagram.com/seattle.looks.like.shxt/

LOL; that’s literally every city. Good stuff and bad stuff.

I hope you're right, in the long term. Right now, my in-laws have seen skyrocketing prices for rent and food costs while on a fixed income. Seems utterly unsustainable for Spokane-area wages. Increased housing supply would help a lot, and Spokane has the room to expand as needed.

Sorry, we're getting farther OT here.

Sorry to hear it's not working out for you two. In terms of grocery stores, I dunno how far out in the avenues you are, but Balboa Produce by Hockey Haven ain't terrible (37th Ave), neither is Richmond Produce Market (20th). And if you're willing to cross GGP, Noriega Produce (now Gus's) really isn't that far away on bike. We'll usually bike down Great Highway, swing by Noriega Produce, then go back up via 41st into the park and back home.

But yeah, if you ain't feeling it, don't force it.

Those IG accounts are run by disgruntled …ummm, people of a certain socio-political persuasion.. anxious to paint west coast cities as dumpster fires of failed progressive policies..

Every major city in the country and most the world over are suffering from the effects of unfettered capitalism. Drugs, mental illness, homelessness, inequality. Is what it is. There’s still a lot of beauty and promise and community out there worth engaging with, atmo. And opportunities to help improve things within your capacity to do so.

Portland is a wonderful place to ride bikes and run, and it seems you have the means to pick a nicer close-in area to land that would largely avoid the issues you’re trying to escape from SF while still being close to the larger hospitals and/or medical campuses. DM me for specific info if it’s a serious consideration.

I’d caution though against setting unrealistic rental expectations based on perusing Craigslist or Zillow. There are parts of Ballard and West Seattle that are highly sketchy - and parts that are super nice. You kind of have to visit to know what you’d be getting and for how much, and where.

I followed my wife to the Bay Area at the beginning of Covid, our long transition took several long years living on opposite coasts. As I didn't know what my employment was going to be, we were non-committal in terms of location while she looked for a house to buy. The process involved several good real estate agents, mostly in East Bay but we got good advice about a large geographic range from Richmond to Fremont, East as far as Concord and Pleasanton. We kept an open mind over a year of searching, and eventually settled on a property in San Leandro, just S of Oakland, which may be a "sleeper" option for the OP to consider. The city has a wide range of housing, including some sketchy areas but also some nice, safe and (relatively- it's still Bay Area!) affordable neighborhoods if you're looking to buy- certainly less expensive than equivalents in Berkley or Oakland. The main downside is a dearth of cool restaurants and good grocery markets, but they're not too far away if we're willing to drive a few minutes. The business district of San Leandro feels more small town than Berkley-eclectic, but I like the mix of working class, seniors and young professionals that nearby more expensive areas lack. I'm a 5 min. bike ride away from Chabot park with a big network of trails to tear up on my CX bike with lots of options for daily 1-3hr rides or trail runs, I don't bother with road riding except at low traffic times, but access to the usual East Bay roadie routes is easy from my front door. Plus the micro-climate here, compared to other parts of East Bay, is warmer in Winter, cooler in Summer than parts further East, less foggy than Oakland/Alameda, and definitely more sunshine than SF. I have mixed opinions about the Bay Area in general, but San Leandro is worth a look if you're going to live in the area. And FWIW, investing in a home and "paying yourself" through a mortgage rather than rent ASAP is generally a smart move if you're going to stay in one place long enough to recover the fees. Talk to some real estate agents- the good ones are super valuable allies, know their communities inside and out and can find the best combination of things you're looking for.

As others have said, Portland might strike a nice balance for you. I’ve been here going on 30 years, moved away a few times, always came back, won’t move again unless it’s abroad. My wife’s a realtor so we’re pretty tuned into local neighborhoods and housing. If you ever want to chat about it in depth, feel free to message me.


I have bad ideas…

Errr.. tell this old fart what levels of 'sketch' means...:)

I'm guessing he means high levels of human feces on the sidewalks. And other stuff like that.

I'll give you an anecdote - we typically do a weekend walk across town, usually along California St, snag some coffee, then head back - ends up being around 20km of walking. A few weekends ago we were passing by Grace Cathedral in Nob Hill when a Merc with a trashed front end buzzed by, blew through a light on a left. I laughed it off and said that car is definitely involved in some crime... Next thing we know, it circles back onto California, a guy hops out of the back and starts "bipping" (smash & grab) cars. We're both pretty inured to that kinda thing, so we just keep heading downtown.

After having some coffee and picking up my wedding band, we head back in roughly the same direction - about two hours after seeing that car. We're at the SW corner of Mason & California, waiting to cross the street when who pulls up, but our friends in the clapped out Merc. I happened to be wearing my Sub that day, but I otherwise dress extremely plain - think crappy Patagonia shorts and a t-shirt. They must've seen something worthwhile, because as soon as we got to the other side of the street, that car pulled a u-turn and someone hopped out of the back and started following us.

At this point, I figured I was gonna get held up or mugged and was pretty resigned to the fact. My fiancé kept her wits about her and pulled us into Huntington Park where we were amongst lots of families and the goon didn't follow. We chilled in the park, tried to reach SFPD (not a chance), then zig-zagged NW out of the area.

Bear in mind that this all happened on a Saturday, in broad daylight, in Nob Hill.

That's just one example, outside of our usual porch pirate issues.

I had to deal with human feces a couple of times in NYC, but it's nothing like LA where people take a crap anywhere, anytime. Whatever novelty that had lost its shine a long time ago.

I used to live in Vancouver, BC. The weather is a little different there from Seattle. I felt like it rained at 10am everyday from late September to April. Wet socks is a thing you get used to, but I don't miss it.

PNW is going to be much more affordable than SF/Bay Area. I was in East Bay for a couple of years, and the Bay Area is just less for the money.

I’ve seen human feces on the streets of London and Rome, but have yet to encounter it in SF. I must be going to the wrong (right?) neighborhoods. Someone did decide one night to use our driveway in the alley in Seattle as a toilet. We lived near Greenlake and I ran around the lake frequently with our dog. Great spot, but being between highway 99 and I-5 resulted in a lot of traffic. Wife was able to take mass transit to work and I generally worked from home. At one point there was a homeless encampment that was being moved around the city and a small crime wave would follow it. That may have been when we encountered the excrement. I remember walking down some streets in NYC and everything smelled like urine. Another time I saw a guy just turn towards a building and start urinating on it in London.
Seem like general big city problems to me. :confused:

Some want to ascribe it to ideology but I say it's as basic as a large concentration of people and infrastructure. More people, more p-words.

re big city smells: downtown Chicago in July. That's my high water mark, so to speak.

Lol, you should see my IG stream for another view of the west coast dumpster fire.

Big cities are big cities. There are incredible incentives living in the Bay Area. My son goes to public school has a PhD teaching him science and the guy who invent to one click buy button at ebay teaching him coding. This is in the 6th grade! The caliber of people in SF is truly incredible.

With regard to the car bit...

I like big cities and always have. There is good that comes with the bad in most of them. Admittedly I have a touch of wanderlust, but I can not imagine living in the northwest and not regularly traveling to to the amazing surrounding areas. This is a cycling forum, so I imagine all of us like to ride in amazing places and see amazing things. If I had to live anywhere other than where I am now, I would likely choose the Bay area, partly because I like it there, but importantly because it is a great home base to branch out and have access to the spectacular diversity of the American west.

I understand the OP needs to live in the city for his wife's work, but a reminder that in the SF (or seattle, or portland) area, there are many opportunities to leave the city lights behind and recharge the batteries.

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Where in LA do you live?

Angry is right- if you don't mind driving there's some very cool riding in the area. Last Friday was Hurrican Ridge in Olympia NP and yesterday the road to Sunrise in Mthttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/202...0bb98e65c7.jpg
. Rainer NPhttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/202...e7555f9fe9.jpg
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Beautiful!

He lives on the west side, I'd call it Brentwood adjacent.