Advice on Waterford 2200

[nighthawk]

I'm trying to pick up a new frame for my lady friend, and found a sweet Waterford 2200. The frame is in great shape, but built up with shimano sora components (which I'll undoubtedly replace).. I'm getting the complete bike for only $400. It is my girlfriends size, but the waterford has 650 wheels, and to this point she has been riding 700's...

Wondering if anyone has any advice on any potential complications with the switch to 650... or if that would affect any other components measurements when I go to replace the rest of the components...

I have zero experience with 650 wheels.. so any help would be appreciated.

Thanks!

[Ken Robb]

I think the smaller wheels are used on very small frames to avoid some geometry compromises that would be necessary if 700 wheels were used. Obviously the variety of tires is limited in the 650 size.
The folks at Waterford might be happy to give you a short briefing on pros/cons as they have been very nice to me when I had questions about a used bike I bought.

[palincss]

It is my girlfriends size, but the waterford has 650 wheels, and to this point she has been riding 700's...

Wondering if anyone has any advice on any potential complications with the switch to 650... or if that would affect any other components measurements when I go to replace the rest of the components...

I have zero experience with 650 wheels.. so any help would be appreciated.



1. It's 650C, not 650 -- otherwise you might end up in a confusion with 650B, another 26" size, but vastly different. Probably best to refer to it by bead seat diameter, ISO 571. No chance of confusion that way.

2. Biggest complication is you're going to have to get different sized tubes and tires.

[oldpotatoe]

I'm trying to pick up a new frame for my lady friend, and found a sweet Waterford 2200. The frame is in great shape, but built up with shimano sora components (which I'll undoubtedly replace).. I'm getting the complete bike for only $400. It is my girlfriends size, but the waterford has 650 wheels, and to this point she has been riding 700's...

Wondering if anyone has any advice on any potential complications with the switch to 650... or if that would affect any other components measurements when I go to replace the rest of the components...

I have zero experience with 650 wheels.. so any help would be appreciated.

Thanks!

Rarity of tires and tubes plus 'standard' gearing with smaller wheels is lower than 700c wheels. Conti and Vittoria still make 650c tires and tubes, probably others.

[SPOKE]

I've got a box of tubes if you need them. I think there's 24 in the box.

[nighthawk]

Great, thanks for all of the advice... Sounds like it should be a smooth transition...

I haven't come across many used waterfords, does the price seem reasonable considering the undesirable components?

[oldpotatoe]

Great, thanks for all of the advice... Sounds like it should be a smooth transition...

I haven't come across many used waterfords, does the price seem reasonable considering the undesirable components?

Good deal(read that low) because of the 650c wheels. It's an about $3000 bike if new today.

[nighthawk]

I think the smaller wheels are used on very small frames to avoid some geometry compromises that would be necessary if 700 wheels were used. Obviously the variety of tires is limited in the 650 size.
The folks at Waterford might be happy to give you a short briefing on pros/cons as they have been very nice to me when I had questions about a used bike I bought.

I've actually been communicating directly with Richard Schwinn, and he's been super helpful so far.

[weiwentg]

who the heck would put Sora on a Waterford 2200??

anyway, smaller wheels will reduce the gearing slightly relative to 700c wheels. I doubt you'll need a higher top gear, but it's worth being aware of.

[nighthawk]

Different gearing totally makes sense, so thanks for the heads up on that.

[palincss]

anyway, smaller wheels will reduce the gearing slightly relative to 700c wheels. I doubt you'll need a higher top gear, but it's worth being aware of.

With 650Cx23mm tires, a 53x12 gear gives you 107" compared with 116" for a 700Cx23 wheel with the same chain ring and sprocket. Although even a 107" is far too high for me, if you really crave a big high gear, an 11T small sprocket gives you 117". At the low end, 39x27 gives you a 35" gear with the 650C wheel, 38" with the 700C wheel.

In other words, the effect is there, but not dramatic -- nothing like the change you see when you compare a 700C wheel with the 20" wheel on a Bike Friday, or the 17" wheel on a Moulton.

[thwart]

I built up a 650c Waterford 1200 and a 650c Waterford 1600 for my height challenged wife and daughter. Great bikes, and no toe overlap issues like you get with a sub-50 cm frame and 700c wheels. 50/34 compacts and 13/29 cassettes work well for the relatively short steep hills around here. They're definitely spinners when it comes to climbing.

We've been able to source wheels, tires, and tubes without too much trouble.

Unless it's really beat up, you're getting an unbelievable deal at $400.

But you knew that...

[cnighbor1]

I have them on my Waterford built 80's paramount, 59cm . Hard to notice any difference in ride or handing compared to my Waterford built Paramount late 80's 700c wheels 57cm
Biggest item is to remember to bring 650c spare inner tube when out riding
Need bigger frame due to 650c wheels
Charles

[nighthawk]

Sounds about right for what I'll look for when I do her build. Out here in Western MA it's a lot of short steep hills, and she's not a great climber, yet!

50/34 compacts and 13/29 cassettes work well for the relatively short steep hills around here. They're definitely spinners when it comes to climbing.
.

[Tom Matchak]

I'm trying to pick up a new frame for my lady friend, and found a sweet Waterford 2200. The frame is in great shape, but built up with shimano sora components (which I'll undoubtedly replace)..

If she isn't happy with the selection or availability of 650c (571 bsd) tires, which seems to be limited to racing widths, you might want to consider using a 26" (559 bsd) rim. There is a decent selection of 26" road tires, in widths of 25mm and up, which she might enjoy if she gets out on beat up blacktop or some of your local dirt roads. You'll likely have to replace the brakes with standard (47-57mm) reach calipers to accommodate the 6mm reduction in the rim radius. If you use a wider 26" tire, the tire diameter will be close to that of the 650c x 23 tire, and thus have little or no impact on the BB height or the gearing.

[Sheldon4209]

My wife has a Terry with 650 C wheels. The only disadvantage that I see is having tires and tubes. Many LBSs don't carry the 650 C size so spares are important. The smaller wheels seem to roll as fast as 700 C wheels, no toe overlap, and the wheels are light.

[nighthawk]

My wife has a Terry with 650 C wheels. The only disadvantage that I see is having tires and tubes. Many LBSs don't carry the 650 C size so spares are important. The smaller wheels seem to roll as fast as 700 C wheels, no toe overlap, and the wheels are light.

Her Uncle owns one of the LBSs here... so I'll just have to make sure he starts stocking them!

[oldpotatoe]

Her Uncle owns one of the LBSs here... so I'll just have to make sure he starts stocking them!

Conti still makes 27 inch tires, doubt they will stop 650c anytime soon.

[sg8357]

Change the brakes to mid reach and convert to 559/26in wheels.
Better tire selection and you might be able to fit larger tires.

Sort of a 650B conversion.

[chismog]

650c or 700c, doesn't really matter, pretty easy to find tires and such. It does sort of suck to not be able to grab a spare from your buddy. The gearing can be weird (less development for a given gear) but it may work better for some. YMMV.

The biggest thing is that a 650c bike is not just a scaled down 700c bike. It winds up being a hodgepodge. Yes, you can get a shorter top tube and maybe better standover, it definitely helps with toe overlap, and may allow a bit more "regular" geometry as compared to small 700c frames, which typically have steep seat angles and shallow head angles. But they don't shorten the chainstays on 650c bikes (due to increased crosschain angle and chainstay clearance issues), and the handling is always affected by the combo of wheelbase and trail....Sometimes it is improved and sometimes it isn't. Some small riders are used to what they've had and different is not always better.

Best thing is to get some miles on the new ride and see what the rider thinks. Some little ladies love them, others... prefer 700c. Yours will have an opinion too, and hers is the one that really matters!