Bicycling December 2011- Dream Bikes article

[jbedker]

I purchased a Classique Ti about 8 weeks ago, and am excited and eager to receive my first Serotta.

Reading the December 2011 Bicycling Magazine article on Dream Bikes-the best American hand-built bikes, I hoped to see Serotta. They were mentioned on page 50, but in the context of Kelly Bedford's custom Tenkara bike and enterprise.

The article speaks of Bedford being at Serotta for 22 years, "and becoming known to insiders as the master builder behind the name."

I am not an insider, but would very much like to know the history/story behind this. Was Kelly Bedford the "master builder" that went out the door in 2009? Who comprises the team now? Is there a "master builder" at Serotta?

Appreciate learning...many thanks
jbedker

[rounder]

I know i can't give the answer you are looking for. I bought my first Serotta in 1992 (still have it). It had been hanging upside down in a shop from the ceiling. i had been drooling over that and and also a red/yellow fade bike from the same shop. So, anyway, i bought the bike. Changed from Shimano 7-speed to to Duraace 8-speed , and then to Campy 10-speed. The bike still rides the same but with faster shifting.. It still rides and looks great.

[Louis]

Reading the December 2011 Bicycling Magazine article on Dream Bikes-the best American hand-built bikes

Serotta makes great bikes.

Kelly Bedford makes great bikes.

A random comment that may or may not help:

I let my Bicycling subscription lapse about ten years ago and haven't missed it one bit.

[FlashUNC]

Bicycling is about as reliable on bike reviews as Motor Trend is for car reviews.

(In other words, completely useless.)

I'm not too worried as long as Ben is around running the place. Current business troubles aside, the company seems to have a knack at making good bikes....

[stuckey]

You are most likely not going to get a direct answer to your questions here.

[beeatnik]

Bicycling has had some great articles in the last few issues. I'm talking New Yorker great. But their reviews are still, you know, laterally stiff yet vertically compliant.

[Elefantino]

...their reviews are still, you know, laterally stiff yet vertically compliant.
But do they plane?

[Wimpy]

Independently, one man shops like Bedford or Kirk don't greatly impact the sales of a company like Serotta. However, as a Collective, they may very will be it's undoing.

It really is a shame. A mid size company like Serotta, Seven or IF can easily do everything that Sachs, Crumpton or Pegoretti can do but the reverse is not the case.

Walmart is not the answer to all needs but neither is a street vendor.

[Louis]

You are most likely not going to get a direct answer to your questions here.

If by "direct answer" you mean a list of all the current Serotta employees, and their functions, then I believe you are correct.

However, it seems to me that the issue underlying the OP's question is a concern that his/her Serotta may not be as good as it might be because Kelly is no longer at Serotta. In that case, I think we can reassure the OP that the bike is just as good as similar Serottas produced, say, five years ago.

[nahtnoj]

Independently, one man shops like Bedford or Kirk don't greatly impact the sales of a company like Serotta. However, as a Collective, they may very will be it's undoing.

It really is a shame. A mid size company like Serotta, Seven or IF can easily do everything that Sachs, Crumpton or Pegoretti can do but the reverse is not the case.

Walmart is not the answer to all needs but neither is a street vendor.


Walmart is cheap crap from China. The street vendor also has cheap crap from China. What does either have to do with a custom bike?

Serotta can't build a Sachs because whoever building it won't be Richard Sachs.

Crumpton and Pegoretti arguably are mid-sized, albeit on the small end of mid-sized.

[happycampyer]

There have been a number of threads about the various builders and companies that the boutique companies like Serotta, IF and Seven have spawned over the years (Kirk, Wages, Bedford, Zanconato, Firefly, Ant, etc.). Imo, the fact that so many builders and companies have been able to spin-off and succeed is a testament to the quality of the product and operations of the boutique companies, and each of those companies continues to turn out first-rate products.

Another example, Kent Eriksen, who founded Moots, left the company six years or so and set up shop with one of Moots' top welders, and Moots continues to innovate and to make outstanding products. I would argue that Kelly Bedford's talent is a fraction of Kent Eriksen's.

[tannhauser]

What do the terms "master builder" and "do everything that" even mean?

You're not going to get a better product if these terms are attached.

Are you looking at the name on the down tube or thinking about how to improve as a rider?

Voila.

[slowgoing]

The quote sounds like a bit of an overstatement. If I recall correctly, Kelly was known for being the guy (or maybe one of the guys???) who built the lugged steel frames like the csi. Serotta discontinued lugged steel frames a while ago. So Kelly goes off to pursue the steel niche on his own. Did Kelly's departure have any impact on the way Serotta Ti frames like yours were built, or the way Serotta carbon bikes were built? I will leave it to others with more knowledge to answer that question. What I can tell is is that I wanted a new legend Ti in matte/polish before he left, and I still want one today.

[Ahneida Ride]

I would argue that Kelly Bedford's talent is a fraction of Kent Eriksen's.

Really? Guess who built your CSi or designed your Legend ?

So why argue? Just take any Bedford (or Kirk or Ellis) and perform the
direct comparison.

Mr. Bedford's work, talent, experience, craftsmanship speaks for itself.
He don't need as dufus like me to talk him up.
He has a 30+ year legacy that is unfortunately well know to industry
insiders but remains elusive the general public. This anomaly is slowly
changing.

Their is an old adage. "The word unspoken you are it's master, the word
spoken you are it's slave." So .... I'll stop here.

[happycampyer]

Really? Guess who built your CSi or designed your Legend ?

So why argue? Just take any Bedford (or Kirk or Ellis) and perform the
direct comparison.

Mr. Bedford's work, talent, experience, craftsmanship speaks for itself.
He don't need as dufus like me to talk him up.
He has a 30+ year legacy that is unfortunately well know to industry
insiders but remains elusive the general public. This anomaly is slowly
changing.

Their is an old adage. "The word unspoken you are it's master, the word
spoken you are it's slave." So .... I'll stop here.Sorry, my point wasn't meant to diminish Kelly Bedford's talent, but to point out that Kent leaving Moots would be like Ben leaving Serotta.

[SPOKE]

Really? Guess who built your CSi or designed your Legend ?

So why argue? Just take any Bedford (or Kirk or Ellis) and perform the
direct comparison.

Mr. Bedford's work, talent, experience, craftsmanship speaks for itself.
He don't need as dufus like me to talk him up.
He has a 30+ year legacy that is unfortunately well know to industry
insiders but remains elusive the general public. This anomaly is slowly
changing.

Their is an old adage. "The word unspoken you are it's master, the word
spoken you are it's slave." So .... I'll stop here.

AMEN Brother!

[Climb01742]

It really is a shame. A mid size company like Serotta, Seven or IF can easily do everything that Sachs, Crumpton or Pegoretti can do but the reverse is not the case.

Walmart is not the answer to all needs but neither is a street vendor.

sachs, crumpton and pegoretti are 'street vendors'? :crap:

[oldpotatoe]

Sorry, my point wasn't meant to diminish Kelly Bedford's talent, but to point out that Kent leaving Moots would be like Ben leaving Serotta.

Hardly. That assumes that nobody could fill Kent's shoes for some reason and that's not the case. For that last 3 years that Kent was on the payroll at Moots, he was only a consultant, then moved on. Moots is finishing up their best year ever. For a company like Moots to be compared to a single or 2 person company is off the mark. Moots built 10-15 times the number of frames that Kent built and grew in spite of Kent leaving quite a long time ago. Kent's name was never on the downtube at Moots. I think you overestimate his influence in the last few years of his tenure at Moots.

Having said that, Kent makes very nice bicycle frames. But his biz is tiny.

I think there would be much larger repercussions if Ben left Serotta, particularly now.

[SamIAm]

It really is a shame. A mid size company like Serotta, Seven or IF can easily do everything that Sachs, Crumpton or Pegoretti can do but the reverse is not the case.



Actually they can't seem to make a lugged steel frame.

[jlwdm]

What do the terms "master builder" and "do everything that" even mean?

.


Master builder has no meaning, but just for fun it is interesting to see how people try to use the term. A quick google shows that how it is used really makes it meaningless.

Jeff

[Charles M]

Don't even try and start the "Kent versus Kelly" thing.

Really.

Just take that garbage some place else...





To the OP, all things change.

Serotta will be what it will be. Kelly did a lot more than "lugged steel" at Serotta. Way more than that. And the bikes I got after he left were very good.



Kelly wasn't Serotta and Serotta wasn't Kelly



Don't sell Kelly or Ben short. Their fates are not tied together in any fashion...


Kelly is very busy and should be. The guy's craftsmanship and crafting skills (making things from scratch versus simply buying tubes and luggs and joining them as many many others do) are not common in custom circles.


Serotta will be what Ben can make it. The list of very talented people that have come through Serotta over the years isn't short...


The history should speak for it's self.

[RedRider]

I'm trying hard to avoid giving my opinion on the article or some of the comments.
FACT - The Bedford bike in the article has a Serotta carbon fork.

[Fixed]

Actually they can't seem to make a lugged steel frame.
bingo cheers

[pdmtong]

Happy is well known here and my re-read and his subsequent remarks look to prresume that kent's relative role at moots was more widespread than kelly's at serotta, NOT that kent can out-weld kelly. I have to say I didnt get that at first read but got it once clarified.

The OPs question can spawn several intersting discussions. Certainly a bigger shop (serotta/IF/seven/moots) has more resources than a 1-3 man shop (kelly/dave/dave/sachs/crumpton/dario/firefly) but it gets to be an eye-of-the-beholder argument over who can produce a "better" bike and the process the buyer would like to enjoy to get said bike. Insert all previous custom builder threads [here]

IK am sure the OPs classique ti is wonderful. so go out and ride it an ignore that the bicycling reviews say. I like carbon as well as ti as well as steel, and bicyling was hanging on awarding mixed materiall bikes the bike of the year award when carbon was already permeating and dominating the peloton.

Read those articles with a "grain of salt".

[pdmtong]

Also, doesn't it say a lot about serotta quality that guys like kirk, wages and bedford all held a torch there? I dont hear anyone saying serottas suck now that they are gone.

[jbedker]

thank you all for the thoughts...much appreciated, and very helpful...I am a novice, but still very excited about my new Classique.

JBedker

[Ahneida Ride]

Master builder has no meaning, but just for fun it is interesting to see how people try to use the term. A quick google shows that how it is used really makes it meaningless.
Jeff

Kelly has and continues to work in steel (Lugged, fillet, Tiged).
He can cut lugs and or make em from scratch.

He also builds fluently in Ti and Ti/carbon and Stainless (both Lugged and Tig).

He has built almost everything from Ti 29er mountain frames to full
on custom lugged steel Rando frames with all the goodies.

He has drafted/designed Thousands of frames. He is uniquely positioned
to select tubes and know a priori how the bike will ride.

IMHO a Master builder is like what someone once said about porn....
I can't define it, but I know it when I see it .

[slowgoing]

Actually they can't seem to make a lugged steel frame.

I'm not so sure that saying Serotta "can't" gives what happened proper context. Based on what I have read here, I think it's more that they didn't want to anymore because of economics and lower demand for those types of frames over time from Serotta. Remember, Serotta actually stopped making lugged steel frames before Kelly left. So to me it sounds more like a "doesn't wan't to" type of situation.

[Dekonick]

Oh boy. I own both and my Serotta(s) are excellent, as is my Bedford. Serotta has demonstrated repeatedly that it produces both excellent bikes and tallent.

FWIW - if I were in the market for carbon, Serotta would get my build. When I buy a new fork for my Hors Categorie, it will be a Serotta.

For lugged steel, Kelly gets my business. :beer:

[SamIAm]

I'm not so sure that saying Serotta "can't" gives what happened proper context. Based on what I have read here, I think it's more that they didn't want to anymore because of economics and lower demand for those types of frames over time from Serotta. Remember, Serotta actually stopped making lugged steel frames before Kelly left. So to me it sounds more like a "doesn't wan't to" type of situation.

I don't disagree at all, I just think that regaining that skill set at this point would be difficult, much less regaining it at the level that some of the master individual builders can offer.

Didn't Seven start down the road of offering a lugged steel frame a year or two ago, whatever happened with that?

[RedRider]

When I saw Kelly Bedford included in the Dream Bikes article in Bicycling I was really happy to see him, and a few other "small" builders get deserved recognition in such a widely circulated magazine. Unfortunately the copy in the article was a bit misleading with the name Serotta mentioned more than Bedford. What the OP should know is that the Serotta Classique he bought is a great bike and should bring him years of enjoyable rides. If he had purchased a Bedford I would say the same thing. The speculation in this thread is just that. I know Kelly Bedford and Serotta continue to have a relationship since he uses Serotta Composite forks when a build calls for it. Comparing framebuilders is like comparing artists...there isn't one best...it might be the best one for you.

[slowandsteady]

I think it says a ton about Serotta as a company that over such a long period of time they have managed to produce not only some of the finest frames in the world but some of the finest builders in the world as well.

That fact alone should tell you A LOT about Ben Serotta as an innovator, builder, welder and designer. It is clear that under his tutelage and guidance he has been able to sculpt a successful company and the artisans associated with it like Wages, Kirk, Bedford and others that are all top of their field. Ben obviously has an ability to choose and create some of the finest bike builders in the world today. That talent is always a part of the man and I am sure he is choosing his current staff with the same attention to detail and skill level as he always has...

Serotta would be akin to the Ivy League colleges in that they educate, train and create the best minds in the world and then send these people off into the world to further their respective field whether it be math or engineering or psychology etc.

[Ahneida Ride]

Serotta stopped Lugged steel primarily cause the orders were too
minimal to justify any production line.

Pete tried numerous times to keep the CSi going by trying to create
a group order.

Plenty of people said that they would order one, but the frn check
never showed up. No frns = no CSi.

[Smiley]

Kelly uses Serotta forks because having been a part of the team that worked in the design he KNOWS first hand that the Serotta carbon fork is the BEST on the market. Now also knowing the brains behind the fork in one Mike Lopez ex Reynolds Composites I would also bet the ranch that the S and F series forks are the BEST too.

What I understood a long time ago when Reynolds of England was certifying welders for their 753 tubesets which required a different Silver Braze technique is once you got the test materials lugs and braze rods that you welded together and sent it back to them for testing and then they certified you as a Master Frame builder. That is how he got the Title and certicate with that Title. Reynolds does not issue this test anymore and as Kelly would say the test was pretty elobrate especially for that era and time.

I call him Master Frame builder cause after 30 years and expertise in Steel, Titanium and Ti / Carbon and Carbon, the man has a knowledge base surpased by few within the industry. Ben Serotta also falls into this category although maybe he has not torched anything lately.

[BumbleBeeDave]

Please lets not go down this road of one builder "versus" another as if it's some sort of Celebrity Cycling Death Match. :rolleyes:

It really makes no sense and does not serve well any of the builders mentioned here. All of them make caviar on two wheels. Each just has a bit different flavor that best suits various diners.

Having met both Kelly and Ben, I don't think I'd ever hear either one stand in front of an audience and say "Yes, I am a Master Builder!" Ugh! Pre-ten-SHUSS! Neither one of them is that way.

Any one of dozens of other builders could also have been chosen for that "Dream Bikes" story and that's simply a tribute to how many really good American builders are around today. We are really lucky.

Personally, I am just still trying to figure out why they hung Kelly's bike on a meat hook for the photo . . . :confused: :eek: ;)

BBD

[Charles M]

Exactly...

If you want to claim your own superiority over others, please feel free to tell us why you are better than we are...

But dont go using Kelly, Kent, Richard, Nick, Ben etc as the shield with which you use your own self importance.


None of them would get any place near this conversation except to properly acknowledge the others skill set.

[Wimpy]

Kelly has and continues to work in steel (Lugged, fillet, Tiged).
He can cut lugs and or make em from scratch.

He also builds fluently in Ti and Ti/carbon and Stainless (both Lugged and Tig).

He has built almost everything from Ti 29er mountain frames to full
on custom lugged steel Rando frames with all the goodies.

He has drafted/designed Thousands of frames. He is uniquely positioned
to select tubes and know a priori how the bike will ride.

IMHO a Master builder is like what someone once said about porn....
I can't define it, but I know it when I see it .

This post clearly expresses what the mid size shops can do that the loners can't.

Offer amazing variety and teach the next generation.

[Wimpy]

I don't disagree at all, I just think that regaining that skill set at this point would be difficult, much less regaining it at the level that some of the master individual builders can offer.

Didn't Seven start down the road of offering a lugged steel frame a year or two ago, whatever happened with that?

Child Please!

Do you really think the skill set to make a lugged frame is all that different from a brazed or even a welded frame.

If anything, lugs mask bad workmanship.

[Climb01742]

This post clearly expresses what the mid size shops can do that the loners can't.

first you called men like richard sachs and dario pegoretti 'street vendors'. now you call them 'loners'. please educate yourself. and stop digging. your hole is plenty deep enough.

[sjbraun]

Dario can make a lugged frame.

http://www.cycleexif.com/pegoretti-luigino

[SamIAm]

Child Please!

Do you really think the skill set to make a lugged frame is all that different from a brazed or even a welded frame.

If anything, lugs mask bad workmanship.

Yes, I think there is a big difference between building a lugged frame and welding one. And by regain the skill set, I am not referring to the skill set to slap one together, I mean the skill set to do it as well as Kirk, Bedford, Sachs, Goodrich etc.

How about I give you a hamburger to go away and you don't even have to pay me back on Tuesday. :)

[SamIAm]

Dario can make a lugged frame.

http://www.cycleexif.com/pegoretti-luigino

You are correct. In fact I have one in my basement at the moment. I forgot about that.

[Climb01742]

Dario can make a lugged frame.

http://www.cycleexif.com/pegoretti-luigino

add to that his new 'day is done' frame, also lugged:

http://www.pegoretticicli.com/frames/type/day-done

[Pete Serotta]

Child Please!

Do you really think the skill set to make a lugged frame is all that different from a brazed or even a welded frame.

If anything, lugs mask bad workmanship.


Get a burger...and a beer. from Sam and see the experience he has on the many models and differences :beer:

Building a tig, a filet, or a lug is much different than just putting metal to metal. :bike:

as to hiding bad workmanship - - I will bet a good red wine on Lug being more than a hiding place

You just do not build a frame with a "Frame Building for Dummies" book.

Sorry to be not politically correct to you :no:

[stuckey]

So basically anyone can pick up a torch and build a quality frame if they work for Serotta?

[Pete Serotta]

So basically anyone can pick up a torch and build a quality frame if they work for Serotta?

Building is more than picking up a book and producing a frame no matter who they work for.

THe quality builders I know of require training, experience, and learning before an employee is allowed to build a start to finish frame and put their brand on it.


Please lets not let this thread turn into something I am forced to close,


THANKS Pete

[Ahneida Ride]

How about I give you a hamburger to go away and you don't even have to pay me back on Tuesday. :)

I'll go away for a Hamburger ... even a slice of nice Pizza !

[BumbleBeeDave]

So basically anyone can pick up a torch and build a quality frame if they work for Serotta?

. . . any more than they can do so at any other small to mid-sized company. Ask Dave Kirk or Dave Wages. I'm sure either one can tell you they didn't simply walk in the door and start building frames.

I think pdmtong said it best . . . "Also, doesn't it say a lot about Serotta quality that guys like kirk, wages and bedford all held a torch there?"

Why yes, yes it does.

BBD

[Charles M]

I know more than one former Serotta employee that couldn't light a torch, much less understand how metal flows... And I know a few that can make liquid run up hill in any pattern they like.


Serotta and several of it's past builders owe each other.

Some more, some less...



That's it.



This thread should die...


really, there are people here that are either trolling or rattle like a can of spray paint when they shake their head.

[parris]

I found the article a bit lacking in that it seemed to put the featured builders above most/all others. That may or may not be the case but if I were "Joe bike rider" looking to go for my first custom that's not Trek, Specialized, etc I may not look to builders and companies other than what was put forth in the piece given the trust that many people who are still somewhat new to the sport put in the magazine and it's writers. Heck I may not have a clue that there are actually a fair number of people who actually would build a bike "just for me".

Many of us have been in and around the sport in one form or another for a long time and can tend to have strong opinions. My comment isn't meant to be a slam to any of the builders/companies that were mentioned in the article but it seemed to just barely touch upon the fact that there is something out there other than what's on the peg at the lbs or in the full page ad of a magazine.