Clothing question (more like a test)

[Ti Designs]

Cold weather riding (temps below freezing), should base layers be warm?


I live in New England and ride all winter - not commute, I do 4 hour base mileage rides 3 times a week. I know something about dressing, but I've also noticed a trend in the marketing and what's available these days. So, what's your opinion and why?

[EDS]

Cold weather riding (temps below freezing), should base layers be warm?


I live in New England and ride all winter - not commute, I do 4 hour base mileage rides 3 times a week. I know something about dressing, but I've also noticed a trend in the marketing and what's available these days. So, what's your opinion and why?

Absolutely in my opinion. Need layers to move the wetness away from your skin. Same would hold true in any cold weather outdoor activity - whether it be running, climbing, hiking, x-sking, etc.

[Gummee]

Depends on the day, what you're doing, etc.

Me? I like lots of thin layers vs a few thick ones.

M

[jblande]

prefer a light base layer and then heavy layers above it.

[AngryScientist]

a base layers function is to keep your skin dry and comfortable.

i wear the same base layer whether riding in 90 degrees or 20. its the layers on top of the base layer that vary with the temp.

IMO, of course

[Nooch]

I believe that base layers should be insulating and allow for sweat to move away -- though my body hates that idea and I just sweat profusely, even though I'm wearing things that should be helping move sweat away, I'm always soaked after a ride... such is life..

[charliedid]

Cold weather riding (temps below freezing), should base layers be warm?


I live in New England and ride all winter - not commute, I do 4 hour base mileage rides 3 times a week. I know something about dressing, but I've also noticed a trend in the marketing and what's available these days. So, what's your opinion and why?

Depends entirely on whether or not you need to manage any moisture. If you spin easy and log miles with zero sweating, warm base layer is fine. If you sweat you need to manage it for both comfort and warmth.

[Ti Designs]

If a layer is insulating, there is a temperature difference from one side to the other. Let's say it's 98 degrees on the inside (I fall a few degrees shy of normal), then the outside would be lower, let's say only 90 degrees. Does wicking occur across a large temperature difference?

For years Craft has made some of the best base layers I've tried (I've been a product tester for 4 other manufacturers). In addition to air channels within the fabric, they had almost no R value to speak of. Insulating (dead air space) should be a function of the insulating layer - we're talking about the base layer.

[Gummee]

Some of the warmest stuff I wear in the winter is also the coolest in the summer. I'm talking about those mesh base layers like the pros ride. Stick one of those on, then some insulating layers and you're bueno.

M

[charliedid]

If a layer is insulating, there is a temperature difference from one side to the other. Let's say it's 98 degrees on the inside (I fall a few degrees shy of normal), then the outside would be lower, let's say only 90 degrees. Does wicking occur across a large temperature difference?

For years Craft has made some of the best base layers I've tried (I've been a product tester for 4 other manufacturers). In addition to air channels within the fabric, they had almost no R value to speak of. Insulating (dead air space) should be a function of the insulating layer - we're talking about the base layer.

If this was a response to me ....you lost me. You asked:

Cold weather riding (temps below freezing), should base layers be warm?

I stand by what I said. "Generally speaking" the warmer the base layer the less effective the wicking capabilities. If it is below freezing and you are not sweating you don't need the base layer to manage the moisture.....because it does not exist. If you are out pounding away and working up a real sweat than you absolutely want a base layer that manages moisture.

You said: "Does wicking occur across a large temperature difference?" Meaning, does wicking work better if the outside temp is considerably colder than your ambient body temp?

[Bob Loblaw]

To answer the original question:

Depends on who you are and how cold the temps. For me, down to around 20 degrees, the answer is yes because I only wear two layers and am aiming not to sweat. IMO, that is the surest way to stay comfortable during multiple hours in the saddle in sub-freezing temps.

If it's 15 degrees or colder, I will wear a lycra baselayer that doesn't insulate just to protect my skin from chafing against the insulating layer of fleece or wool that goes over it.

I do about 100 - 150 road miles a week through the winter, also in New England.

BL

[rugbysecondrow]

Cold weather riding (temps below freezing), should base layers be warm?


I live in New England and ride all winter - not commute, I do 4 hour base mileage rides 3 times a week. I know something about dressing, but I've also noticed a trend in the marketing and what's available these days. So, what's your opinion and why?


Base is a wicking layer for me. It might offer moderate protection, but its purpose is to get the moisture away from my skin. Subsequent layers provide warmth.

I practiced layers for years as a paper boy. :)

EDIT in refernce to other comments: I always sweat when I ride so my base layer is a wicking layer. I don't know of a way of riding where I don't sweat.

[Ti Designs]

You said: "Does wicking occur across a large temperature difference?" Meaning, does wicking work better if the outside temp is considerably colder than your ambient body temp?

The question was simply does it work across a temperature delta, given that it's colder on the outside and the moisture is coming from the inside, I would have to say no. That said, if you are just wearing your base layer, you're going to freeze. Think of it in terms of a three layer system, the base layer designed to move moisture away from the body, the insulating layer designed as a dead air space for R value, and the isolating layer to keep the outside cold, moving air from entering the insulating layer. In a working system the base layer isn't insulating, it's job is to pass moisture to the outside. The temperature drop from inside to outside happens in the insulating layer. I wear base layers based on time on the bike because I know there's only so far the moisture will go and two layers of base have a longer saturation time. I use insulating layers based on outside temp.

I bring all of this up because I've noticed that almost all of the base layers now claim to be warm. Wool is the one wildcard in this game, it maintains it's insulating ability when wet, but I would argue that it's not the best base layer for that reason. This is a case where few people really understand dressing for cold riding and the marketing becomes the source of knowledge, wrong as it is.

To make my point I have asked reps from 6 different clothing companies if they were willing to ride with me this winter. Most of the reps don't ride in the winter, their source of info is their own marketing. Only one said he would, as of last year he didn't use his own company's base layers...

[fiamme red]

Wool is the one wildcard in this game, it maintains it's insulating ability when wet, but I would argue that it's not the best base layer for that reason. This is a case where few people really understand dressing for cold riding and the marketing becomes the source of knowledge, wrong as it is.I've been wearing wool base layers in sub-freezing temperatures for many years now. I had no idea I was doing anything wrong.

[charliedid]

The question was simply does it work across a temperature delta, given that it's colder on the outside and the moisture is coming from the inside, I would have to say no. That said, if you are just wearing your base layer, you're going to freeze. Think of it in terms of a three layer system, the base layer designed to move moisture away from the body, the insulating layer designed as a dead air space for R value, and the isolating layer to keep the outside cold, moving air from entering the insulating layer. In a working system the base layer isn't insulating, it's job is to pass moisture to the outside. The temperature drop from inside to outside happens in the insulating layer. I wear base layers based on time on the bike because I know there's only so far the moisture will go and two layers of base have a longer saturation time. I use insulating layers based on outside temp.

I bring all of this up because I've noticed that almost all of the base layers now claim to be warm. Wool is the one wildcard in this game, it maintains it's insulating ability when wet, but I would argue that it's not the best base layer for that reason. This is a case where few people really understand dressing for cold riding and the marketing becomes the source of knowledge, wrong as it is.

To make my point I have asked reps from 6 different clothing companies if they were willing to ride with me this winter. Most of the reps don't ride in the winter, their source of info is their own marketing. Only one said he would, as of last year he didn't use his own company's base layers...

We are speaking the exact same language.

I wear a lot of wool but I also sweat a ton so it isn't always my first choice as a base. Touring, I wear pretty much all wool except the very hottest days where I like Patagonia Capeline 2 for it's ability to manage my sweat and have it evaporate quickly. I find most "claims" dubious when it comes to much of this stuff. I have been in the industry for years though not currently, and take it all in stride. I will say that Patagonia used to make a product called cool weather gear that came very close to being the perfect wicking/mid weight base. It was fleeced inside and dense outside with a bit of stretch and lasted forever. I still wear 2 pieces that are 20 years old.

Most people get the basics these days, and the rest is pretty much up to the individual and each activity scenario.

[jamesau]

Does wicking occur across a large temperature difference?
A wicking fabric transmits moisture from the inside of the fabric to the outside and occurs by virtue of a moisture gradient (or 'wetness' difference) across the fabric. For wicking to be effective, the outside surface must not be allowed to saturate, otherwise wicking stops; this can happen if your outside layers don't breathe sufficiently.

The rate of wicking will decrease with decreasing temperatures but the most important factor to consider to promote wicking is that outer layers breathe or are properly vented (IMHO).

[Mark McM]

The question was simply does it work across a temperature delta, given that it's colder on the outside and the moisture is coming from the inside, I would have to say no.

Most wicking of moisture is caused by some form of capilary action, which are due to interactions between the cohesion of the liquid and its adherence to the wicking material. I don't think it is largely dependent on temperature (at least in the temperature ranges involved in clothing insulation). Perhaps you are thinking of vapor transport, which can be affected by temperature difference (or rather, by the variations in vapor pressure due to temperature)?

Think of it in terms of a three layer system, the base layer designed to move moisture away from the body, the insulating layer designed as a dead air space for R value, and the isolating layer to keep the outside cold, moving air from entering the insulating layer. In a working system the base layer isn't insulating, it's job is to pass moisture to the outside.

Which brings up the issue of, what happens to the moisture after it's been wicked to the insulating layer? Doesn't the insulating layer also have to be able to wick the moisture away (to the outside to be evaporated), rather than just soaking up the moisture (and losing insulating ability)?

I bring all of this up because I've noticed that almost all of the base layers now claim to be warm.

Maybe these claims are primarily hyperbole? Much like all bicycle frames are "stiff yet compliant" and all tires are "high traction and low rolling resistance, yet durable and puncture resistant"?

[torquer]

The base layers may be effective at keeping you warm because they trap air in all those little pockets; this is basically how traditional wool works (not to mention fibrous wall insulation). Still air is quite an effective insulator; it's what's in your thermapane windows, too (unless you sprung for the argon option).

Where the new synthetic "high-performance" fabrics supposedly improve on tradition is through moisture transfer; wool kept you (somewhat) warm after it got wet, but now the water is magically moved away, via wicking, I guess, but water vapor needs to be dealt with, too. But my command of physics ended with the previous paragraph, so perhaps someone else can weigh in on this.

Bottom line, I suspect this stuff works keeping us comfortable mainly because we believe in it, or doesn't because we don't expect it to. Just like I'm alsways faster on a more expensive bike.

[Ti Designs]

Which brings up the issue of, what happens to the moisture after it's been wicked to the insulating layer? Doesn't the insulating layer also have to be able to wick the moisture away (to the outside to be evaporated), rather than just soaking up the moisture (and losing insulating ability)?


Nice theory, doesn't really happen. The question of ventilation is a failure of one system or the other. Wicking works if the outside layer can receive moisture, insulating only works if the air within that layer isn't moving. Base layers are always a game of time til saturation, that's why I always double up on base layers for longer rides. Lots of riders regulate heat by using their zippers on the outer layer, but this is only a means of regulating heat, not moisture build-up. Passing the moisture to the outside would involve a failure of the thermal layer, at 20 degrees that's a really bad idea.

[Ti Designs]

Bottom line, I suspect this stuff works keeping us comfortable mainly because we believe in it, or doesn't because we don't expect it to. Just like I'm alsways faster on a more expensive bike.

So as a product tester I would just be reflecting how full of s**t the rep is???

[EDS]

Nice theory, doesn't really happen. The question of ventilation is a failure of one system or the other. Wicking works if the outside layer can receive moisture, insulating only works if the air within that layer isn't moving. Base layers are always a game of time til saturation, that's why I always double up on base layers for longer rides. Lots of riders regulate heat by using their zippers on the outer layer, but this is only a means of regulating heat, not moisture build-up. Passing the moisture to the outside would involve a failure of the thermal layer, at 20 degrees that's a really bad idea.

At 20 degrees my problem is never regulating my core - more keeping my feet warm.

What do you wear for footwear at those temperatures ti design?

[Gummee]

At 20 degrees my problem is never regulating my core - more keeping my feet warm.

What do you wear for footwear at those temperatures ti design?You sure your feet aren't too warm then got sweaty?

I've had that problem with previous shoe covers

M

[beeatnik]

I'm really dense today but I think I follow on 2 out of 3.

So, best base layer should only wick and not regulate body temperature, in other words provide warmth.

Best, outer layer should keep cold air out yet breathe.

As for insulating layer, here I'm a little confused. The primary function of this layer is to regulate temperature, obviously, but how is this compromised? In other words, what would be a bad choice for an insulating layer. It sounds like wool is OK, here.

[thinpin]

My notion of layering comes from outdoor stuff, trekking and mountaineering etc. The theory applied to divesting or donning layers to prevent excessive sweating, storing the layers in the backpack.
This does not apply on the bike because I have limited storage, usually carrying only a wind/rain jacket. Therefore getting the clothing correct is important. I find zippers work to regulate the core temp allowing cool air in to prevent sweating as much as possible. This reduces the wicking work required by base layers keeping things dry and therefore warm. I am however, a light "sweater".
Find the system that works for your body type. Preventing sweating is key. Your wicking fabrics will work as described.
Living here in Melbourne though, I no longer experience the long cold rides I used to :) .

[jr59]

I have no idea!

Nor do I want to know.

It won't get bellow 30 here! :banana:

[EDS]

You sure your feet aren't too warm then got sweaty?

I've had that problem with previous shoe covers

M

100% sure my feet are not getting too warm/sweaty at any point.

[Ti Designs]

At 20 degrees my problem is never regulating my core - more keeping my feet warm.

What do you wear for footwear at those temperatures ti design?


Extremities like feet and hands are a problem 'cause the body's defense to being cold is to shut down circulation. There's two ends to this, insulating the feet and hands and keeping your body from restricting blood flow. For that second part I use embrocation - this could be dangerous because it signals the body that there's heat but it doesn't really produce heat. I've known lots of people to use embrocation and get frostbite - don't do it. For my feet I run winter shoes (Specialized Toasters), a thin wool sock over the shoe - R value is thickness, stuffing more into the shoe doesn't do it, and a 3mm shoe cover with a real bottom to it.

[jmeloy]

I had a couple of private exchanges with Ed on this last Winter as i just can't get this figured out to my benefit. Pretty heavy "sweater" and an old fart. Always end up damp and then chilled. Going with the 3 layers. I think I overdress to start out, sweat as a result and then it just rolls downhill (not a pun). Can we name some actual products you all like for the first two layers? What do you do between 45 and 55 degrees which i get a lot of here? 2 layers only?
Thanks!

[AngryScientist]

I had a couple of private exchanges with Ed on this last Winter as i just can't get this figured out to my benefit. Pretty heavy "sweater" and an old fart. Always end up damp and then chilled. Going with the 3 layers. I think I overdress to start out, sweat as a result and then it just rolls downhill (not a pun). Can we name some actual products you all like for the first two layers? What do you do between 45 and 55 degrees which i get a lot of here? 2 layers only?
Thanks!

45 to 55 is a piece of cake IMO, that's actually pretty warm. for those conditions, merino wool baselayer, jersey, arm warmers with bib knickers. maybe a wind vest, depending on how i feel. below 45 is where you really need to start thinking about it.

[KonaSS]

Ti Designs, you asked a question, but you obviously already have firmly decided the answer. I am not disagreeing with you, I just don't understand the premise of the thread.

How about - I don't like the trend I am seeing in manufacturors marketing base layers as warm. They shouldn't be because.... Base layers I like/function well are....... What do you like?

[Ti Designs]

Ti Designs, you asked a question, but you obviously already have firmly decided the answer. I am not disagreeing with you, I just don't understand the premise of the thread.


It's hard to get people to really think about something in cycling without insulting them. Cycling is one of those topics where everyone knows everything, and no opinion is ever wrong. Dressing for winter riding is something people assume is easy. I know this, I've worked in retail for 25 years and I've listened to people who've never ridden in the cold give some poor advice, and I've ridden with some of the people who received some of that poor advice (at times I feel like the rolling complaints department). This is one case where it's very easy to jump to the wrong conclusion - winter layers should be warm, right?

jmeloy,

45 degrees is a zone where you have to rethink the traditional 3 layer system. You sweat, so the base layer needs to be there and it's got to work. Craft base layer from a few years back was as good as it gets. I've searched the whole country for more turtleneck base layers like what I use - no zipper, covers my neck - what more could you ask? Now they have 3 different versions and yes, one of them is called warm. I haven't tried their new stuff as I've been product testing for other companies (for my long winter rides I stick with my old craft base layers). The part to rethink is the isolation layer. There's a fine line between blocking wind and reflecting heat. At 45 degrees I can't wear my jacket 'cause I'll saturate my base layer in no time. I switch to my thermal jersey which is a tight weave, but isn't wind stopping. The thermal layer still needs to do it's job - in your case I would probably use wool because it continues to keep you warm as it's taking on moisture, but to a lesser extent. The thermal layer is a non-moving air space, but you have too much heat on one side. A little air movement here is a good thing, which is why the thermal jersey works better than the wind stop jacket.

Lastly, there are areas that are always problems for some people. I wear base layers, I wear glove liners. 30 minutes into the ride there's a 1" gap between the two, and there's always a cold zone where the gloves end. I've talked to the clothing companies about making something, but it's like getting something passed in congress - not gonna happen in my lifetime. I had a lot of spare material - I've worn out the seat of countless pairs of tights and base layers, but the rest is just fine. I had what I call wrist warmers made - problem solved.

[rugbysecondrow]

I had a couple of private exchanges with Ed on this last Winter as i just can't get this figured out to my benefit. Pretty heavy "sweater" and an old fart. Always end up damp and then chilled. Going with the 3 layers. I think I overdress to start out, sweat as a result and then it just rolls downhill (not a pun). Can we name some actual products you all like for the first two layers? What do you do between 45 and 55 degrees which i get a lot of here? 2 layers only?
Thanks!
Appropriate for me is dressing so I am a little chilled standing and even the first mile or so, but then I warm up and I am fine. Dressing too much is a bad thing. Think a wet suit. The cold water actually gets in and you body heat has to warm the water which then providea that layer of warmth and protection.

Also, I am not sure if TI mentioned this, but his advice last year on gloves and hand warmth was spot on, so he is a good resource.

[verticaldoug]

45-55 degrees- I am in knickers. A very tight base layer like Craft Pro Extreme, a long sleeve jersey like rapha's and a nice vest (i use 2xu Micro Climate) At 45, I will probably use Assos Early Winter Gloves. At 45, booties, again I use 2xu and at 55 just wool socks over the ankles, no booties.

35-45 doesn't really seem like a stable temperature range so ignore it.

Below 35, Instead of the vest, I switch to a Mavic Inferno Jacket. Add a heavier beanie. and go to full tights. If I get too warm, I open the vents.

Below 25, I switch to Craft Pro Warm layer (super muffin top tight). I switch gloves to my old Marmot Ice Climbers. I've never found a better pair of gloves. I will change my socks to ski socks. I use some x-socks I bought on sale on backcountry.com with booties.
The Mavic has a built in face mask so this is unfurled at this time.

Below 15, I may double up a pair of knickers under my tights. and ride gets shorter. Biggest issue here is you need to keep moving else glasses fog. Feet and hands eventually get cold, but just suck it up.

below ZERO: Total fun zone. I am kept warm by the knowledge the people in their cars are having brain freeze just looking at me.

I don't mind wool, but do not think it is as durable as synthetics. Also it loses its shape and I think skin tight first layer is the most important aspect about dressing right. I like craft, but in reality, all the outdoor gear companies make great stuff - TNF, Patagonia, Marmot, Mammut, Montbell etc. People have never had it as good for spending time in the cold.

I grew up in Minnesota and live in Westchester now. I only think of New England cold as a minor inconvenience.

[Bob Ross]

Wicking works if the outside layer can receive moisture, insulating only works if the air within that layer isn't moving. ...[snip]...Passing the moisture to the outside would involve a failure of the thermal layer

The air within the insulating layer doesn't need to move in order for wicking to take place.

[AngryScientist]

Cycling is one of those topics where everyone knows everything, and no opinion is ever wrong.

i take exception to this statement.

[Mark McM]

Nice theory, doesn't really happen. The question of ventilation is a failure of one system or the other. Wicking works if the outside layer can receive moisture, insulating only works if the air within that layer isn't moving. Base layers are always a game of time til saturation, that's why I always double up on base layers for longer rides. Lots of riders regulate heat by using their zippers on the outer layer, but this is only a means of regulating heat, not moisture build-up. Passing the moisture to the outside would involve a failure of the thermal layer, at 20 degrees that's a really bad idea.

I disagree. As Bob Ross mentioned, you don't have to have air movement within the insulation to wick moisture, and once the moisture is outside the insulation it can evaporate into the atmosphere.

You make it sound like the outerlayer should be water tight, like a rubber sauna suit. That would be uncomfortably clammy even when standing still, and very uncomfortable (and wet) if exercising hard. Which is why most outer layers on exercise clothing are a tight weave or knit (for blocking the wind), but still permeable (for moisture movement).

I do a lot of X-Country skiing, where the need for moisture management within the insulating layers may be even greater than for cycling. X-Country skiing primarily takes place in sub-freezing temperatures, and has at least as much (and often greater) aerobic demand than cycling, often resulting in copious amounts of sweating. This moisture must be eliminated as quickly as possible, or hypothermia may result if the temperature drops or heat production is reduced (such as after reaching the top of the mountain and descending). Consequently, the wickability of all the layers (including the wind resistant outer layer) is very important. Semi-permeable fabrics like Gore-Tex may be popular for less aerobic winter activities (like alpine skiing or snowmobiling), but it just doesn't cut it for X-country skiing because it is too impermeable for adequate moisture control.

[thinpin]

Semi-permeable fabrics like Gore-Tex may be popular for less aerobic winter activities (like alpine skiing or snowmobiling), but it just doesn't cut it for X-country skiing because it is too impermeable for adequate moisture control.
Never a truer word said. Gortex has to be the best marketing spin of the last century, at least in the outdoor world. Works at altitude and in space!

[Ti Designs]

You make it sound like the outerlayer should be water tight, like a rubber sauna suit. That would be uncomfortably clammy even when standing still, and very uncomfortable (and wet) if exercising hard. Which is why most outer layers on exercise clothing are a tight weave or knit (for blocking the wind), but still permeable (for moisture movement).


You could sell clothing at a bike shop. Air permeable outer layer at 20 degrees, on a bike? As we live in the same area, I say we put this to the test this winter. I'll be wearing my Castelli/Harvard jacket which is not air permeable. I do use the zipper to vent if I get too warm, but by definition that's a failure of the outer layer and to some extent the insulating layer as well. You can wear a tight weave outer layer and see how that works out. My base mileage rides average about 15 MPH, I'm guessing that's faster than you ski.

[93legendti]

I think gortex works better when speeds are higher (windchill?) and energy demands lower

[beeatnik]

Is the fugujack impermeable?

Too lazy to look it up.

[spiderman]

for me...and i know it's early in the season...
-- i'm wearing my sachs warsaw jacket and bibs
with my serotta leg warmers every day this winter
and that's it!
...and then i'll think about doing laundry...sometime in april 2012!

[Mark McM]

You could sell clothing at a bike shop. Air permeable outer layer at 20 degrees, on a bike? As we live in the same area, I say we put this to the test this winter. I'll be wearing my Castelli/Harvard jacket which is not air permeable. I do use the zipper to vent if I get too warm, but by definition that's a failure of the outer layer and to some extent the insulating layer as well. You can wear a tight weave outer layer and see how that works out. My base mileage rides average about 15 MPH, I'm guessing that's faster than you ski.

I do wear a tight weave outer layer for winter cycling, and it does just fine. (Actually, I usualy wear a jacket and tights with a tight weave on the front for wind-resistance, and a more open knit on the back for moisture wicking).

I'm not sure what you mean by using zippers for ventilation as a "failure of the outer layer and to some extent the insulating layer as well." Retaining heat is a failure of insulation?

I probably have a moving average of just under 10 mph when skiing (I mostly skate), but on downhills I can get close to 30 mph.

I image that the Idatabike race (winter bike race in Alaska on part of the Idatarod dogsled trail) is both longer and colder than your winter rides. Here's what All Weather Sports in Fairbanks say about clothing for the Idatabike (http://www.allweathersports.com/isport/ibiketips.html):

Clothes
A lot of that water you'll be drinking will leave through your skin and will need to pass through your clothes. At temperatures much below freezing, the pores in Gore-Tex and other breathable-waterproof materials quickly clog with frozen moisture, leaving you no better off than if you were wearing coated nylon. Use outer clothes with highly breathable back and sides (light pile or knitted fabrics work well) and windproof fronts. Our favorite brand over the years has been Kucharik.
No matter what your outer layer, you'll saturate your clothes in a few hours. Wear the lightest clothes that will keep you comfortable, with a wicking layer like Capilene or Drilete next to your skin. Overdressing and sweating will leave you just as cold as underdressing and will also waste precious water.

[Ti Designs]

I'm not sure what you mean by using zippers for ventilation as a "failure of the outer layer and to some extent the insulating layer as well." Retaining heat is a failure of insulation?

Pulling down the zipper allows outside air in - failure of the outer layer. There's also air movement in the insulating layer, which is also a failure of it's function.

I probably have a moving average of just under 10 mph when skiing (I mostly skate), but on downhills I can get close to 30 mph.

So you should have no problem with a few hours on the bike with me this winter.

I image that the Idatabike race (winter bike race in Alaska on part of the Idatarod dogsled trail) is both longer and colder than your winter rides. Here's what All Weather Sports in Fairbanks say about clothing for the Idatabike (http://www.allweathersports.com/isport/ibiketips.html):

Not even going to bother to read it. Anybody who's doing that race has figured out their clothing needs over seasons of winter riding. Everyone is different, they couldn't hope to even get close to what any given person needs in some guide to dressing. My guess is the person who wrote it doesn't ride outside when it's cold (I know who wrote the cold weather clothing guides for all of the local shops, none of them ride in the winter).




I'm sticking to my guns on this one. Talk is cheap, if you say something works, show me. I've had 5 different clothing manufacturers tell me their stuff works great - most of it doesn't. My offer to all of them still stands, come ride with me, show me how well it works. The same offer goes for most of the food companies, none of them have figured out packaging that can be opened while wearing lobster gloves, and the bars that didn't turn to tool steel have been discontinued.

[rugbysecondrow]

So, for those of us listening, what would you buy now that would work? Seriously?

Thanks

Paul


Pulling down the zipper allows outside air in - failure of the outer layer. There's also air movement in the insulating layer, which is also a failure of it's function.



So you should have no problem with a few hours on the bike with me this winter.



Not even going to bother to read it. Anybody who's doing that race has figured out their clothing needs over seasons of winter riding. Everyone is different, they couldn't hope to even get close to what any given person needs in some guide to dressing. My guess is the person who wrote it doesn't ride outside when it's cold (I know who wrote the cold weather clothing guides for all of the local shops, none of them ride in the winter).




I'm sticking to my guns on this one. Talk is cheap, if you say something works, show me. I've had 5 different clothing manufacturers tell me their stuff works great - most of it doesn't. My offer to all of them still stands, come ride with me, show me how well it works. The same offer goes for most of the food companies, none of them have figured out packaging that can be opened while wearing lobster gloves, and the bars that didn't turn to tool steel have been discontinued.

[rwsaunders]

For the past five years, I've kept a ride log where I note the route, solo/group, time, temp range, humidty and mileage. I also note the clothing that I wore on a particular day and the bike (choice of 2) that was ridden. I started doing this as I was getting tired of buying clothing and really only using a few select pieces.

After two years, I sold off the clothing that was gathering dust in my search for minimalism and comfort. At the end of the purge, I am down to 3 baselayers in the drawer...Summer, Fall/Spring and Winter. The key for me has been using a quality jersey/vest or jacket in combination with the base. I can't imagine that there is a universal solution, but I don't find the cooler temps, and most importantly Winter, to be a challenge any more in terms of comfort.

I'd be happy to post the clothing/ranges if it would be of help.

[tuscanyswe]

Beeing a messenger in sweden i got my share of cold days on the bike. I use net in wool closest to my body. Build from there depending on temps. Works great imo, nothing beats it for me.

http://www.outnet.se/aclima/woolnet-t-shirt-ms.php

[beeatnik]

It doesn't seem like the OP cares about riding in cold weather in general. Or is even proposing a layering system for different zones a la Assos. Isn't he just talking about riding in sub 30 or 20 degree weather? I'm fascinated but luckily it's not an issue I'll ever encounter in SoCal.

[Bob Ross]

Cold weather riding (temps below freezing), should base layers be warm?


I live in New England and ride all winter - not commute, I do 4 hour base mileage rides 3 times a week. I know something about dressing, but I've also noticed a trend in the marketing and what's available these days. So, what's your opinion and why?


I had to go back & re-read post #1 just to try to figure out what your point was.

My "opinion" is that the clothing I've settled on via trial & error over the past ~5 winters riding works for me; "why?" ...because it works for me.

My base layers are varied: some Merino wool, some polypropylene, lots of polyester...and they come in various weights, which generally seem to correspond to various "warmths". Manufacturers include Ibex, Performance, Sahalie/Early Winters, Nike, and some no-name stuff.

If it's in the mid-to low-30's I wear one of the lighter base layers. If it's in the 20's I wear one of the heavier base layers. With perhaps one exception*, all seem to do a perfectly acceptable job of transporting moisure away from my skin and keeping me warm/dry.

* the one exception is a strangely heavy, fleece-y all polypro shirt from Early Winters that tends to get a bit damp when I'm really working hard...but it is also almost mind-bogglingly warm even when damp. Appropriately enough, it's called the "Furnace Shirt"

Anyhow, those base layers, combined with either a jersey, a jacket, or sometimes both, have served me well for riding in New York winters 52 weeks/year, in sub-20°F temps.

I'd happily ride with you Ed any winter day in any New England state at any pace you desire, just to show off my winter wardrobe ...if I could only just figure out what the point was.

[rice rocket]

Bump.

So I picked up two Craft Zero Extreme baselayers from Amazon for $22 each on some mega blowout sale. These things are wonderful.

Coldest I've done on the road is 40 degrees with these. For around 3 hours time, this layer + a jersey and gloves was great.

Today was 35 and I was on my MTB, I decided to stack two of them. Threw a jersey on + some arm warmers and the warmers were definitely too warm. Granted it was a MTB ride and you don't have constant speed as you do on the road, but they were plenty warm. Didn't feel cold and clammy, it was just straight up excellent.

I should probably find a better second layer, because the Craft layers seem to pull rather easily (especially because I'm new to MTBs and keep dumping it on the technical singletrack). Or maybe swap the long sleeve baselayer with a sleeveless baselayer, and use arm warmers...hmm. I'll will try this tomorrow!

I think down in the 20s, I'd want some sort of windstopping layer, but I'm not sure where to start. Craft makes a baselayer with a windstopper front...but consensus here doesn't seem to support that theory?

[ckamp]

Wow quite the topic.

Put on a wool (http://www.patagonia.com/ca/product/mens-merino-2-lightweight-crew?p=36720-0-155)

or soy based baselayer (http://www.snowboard-life.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&catid=41%3Agoods&id=51%3Aclimawear-soy-active-wear&Itemid=1)


and a windproof jacket and go riding!

[Kontact]

From several other things I've read and experienced:

Why use anything but wool? It is the only fabric that wicks without cooling, and warms even when saturated.

So many of these modern fabrics are like food additives - better living through chemistry. But natural fibers are like fruits and grains - they do the body much more good than vitamins and supplements.

So I don't think this is a question of whether base layers should be warm or not - the layers are piled right up against each other and form a whole. How does that whole work, though? For synthetics - like a poor imitation of natural stuff.

Just got a down jacket for my commute. Amazing stuff.

[Peter P.]

Some layers CAN serve TWO functions, such as an insulated, Gore-Tex jacket
(Non-cycling).

While the jacket in the example above would work well in a winter, freezing rain, it would be too warm for spring or summer rain. That doesn't mean it's not a practical item, just what the manufacturer offered and what the consumer chose.

It's all condition and temperature based so yes; I feel a base layer can insulate and wick; it just doesn't have to do both. It's the job of the user to pick the right clothing for the ride at hand.

When I was commuting to work, I would usually wear one base layer, a jersey and arm warmers, and a shell. At some point, in order to improve my comfort in really cold temps, I added a second base layer and was amazed at the improvement. In this case the second base layer acted as an insulator but it could also be acting as a wicking layer since it was in contact with the layer closest to my skin. I guess this is another way of rephrasing my answer.

In fact, now that I think of it, I wouldn't be surprised if layering outer shells would increase warmth. Most shells are permeable and even those that aren't would benefit from the air gap however small, that a second shell would provide to keep cold wind off the inner layers. It'd be bulky for sure, but worth a try.

[Ti Designs]

My "opinion" is that the clothing I've settled on via trial & error over the past ~5 winters riding works for me; "why?" ...because it works for me.

That's one thing you never hear in the advice given about winter clothing - take your time, figure out what works for you. I know maybe two dozen riders who ride all winter, all of them have their own collection of clothing that works for them, all of them have found little secrets about to keep some part of the body warm. None of this is printed anywhere, it's just learned with time.


I'd happily ride with you Ed any winter day in any New England state at any pace you desire, just to show off my winter wardrobe ...if I could only just figure out what the point was.

The point is the marketing uses the consumer's knee jerk reaction instead of an understanding of how it all works. Should a base layer by itself be warm? Most people will say yes without giving any thought to it. Should it be warm at the expense of wicking moisture? Fuel economy is good, should a towing vehicle get good gas mileage? Not if it's at the expense of towing capacity. Advertising works on this idea of universal good, which oddly enough isn't really that good that often.

Are there any epic rides on New Years day in North Jersey or Orange county NY any more? 30 years ago there was a ride that started from Oakland NJ where Fuji was based and headed out to Herriman state park and up Bear Mountain. Half the people weren't up for the distance and a few idiots showed up on fixed gears. One year we came back with a group of 8, 2 bonked, 4 taking turns pushing, two on fixed gears hanging on for dear life - such great times... I don't travel much, but I think a good group ride is worth it. We do have a jewish christmas ride here, it starts in Lexington Ma and stops a few towns over for lunch. It's billed as a mostly off road ride but conditions are never the same twice so it could be anything.

[dsb]

That's one thing you never hear in the advice given about winter clothing - take your time, figure out what works for you. I know maybe two dozen riders who ride all winter, all of them have their own collection of clothing that works for them, all of them have found little secrets about to keep some part of the body warm. None of this is printed anywhere, it's just learned with time.


Well I wish you'd help us out and share all this top secret stuff...

I _really_ have a tough time with this... I was born and raised in FLA, lived there the first 40 years of my life until I moved to the arctic tundra that is the N.Ga mountains...

Seems there are only two modes here... 1) climbing and sweating your a$$ off.. 2)screaming downhill freezing your a$$ off...

I have found that winter and the accompanying wardrobe makes #1 happen faster, and #2 worse...

So... whatcha got?

[EDS]

Are there any epic rides on New Years day in North Jersey or Orange county NY any more? 30 years ago there was a ride that started from Oakland NJ where Fuji was based and headed out to Herriman state park and up Bear Mountain. Half the people weren't up for the distance and a few idiots showed up on fixed gears. One year we came back with a group of 8, 2 bonked, 4 taking turns pushing, two on fixed gears hanging on for dear life - such great times... I don't travel much, but I think a good group ride is worth it.

1/1/12, 7:30 am, be at Engineer's Gate, Central Park - Bear Mountain and back.

[Lionel]

Well I wish you'd help us out and share all this top secret stuff...

I _really_ have a tough time with this... I was born and raised in FLA, lived there the first 40 years of my life until I moved to the arctic tundra that is the N.Ga mountains...

Seems there are only two modes here... 1) climbing and sweating your a$$ off.. 2)screaming downhill freezing your a$$ off...

I have found that winter and the accompanying wardrobe makes #1 happen faster, and #2 worse...

So... whatcha got?

My secret is called the Assos AirJack ;)

[forrestw]

When I read your initial entry here I thought to myself "Why is Ed asking rhetorical questions?"

I'm not gonna pick out any particular points from this thread, here's my $0.02

The principal principle in managing temperature and moisture transport in cold weather can only be the need to minimize the amount of moisture being held in the insulation layers. This is because the thermal conductivity of water is 25x higher than that of air. All of the moisture must eventually either evaporate or drain into our shoes and that evaporation costs heat at a rate of I think 250 kCal/lb. As I sweat at least on lb/hr, that's a significant amount of heat dissipation.

"Being held" in the base layers is fairly simply a function of whether the fibers are hydroscopic. Cotton is; wool, silk, Ppro etc aren't. If you judge layering poorly, overheat and completely soak all of your layers when they don't hold water, the soaking drips away quickly and the amount of moisture remaining to conduct heat away is smaller than if you were wearing cotton. If your layers were cotton the fraction of water in the layer is higher and its higher thermal conductivity will result in high heat loss.

So I don't think the 'warmth' of the innermost layer matters so much either way. All things being equal, more R is better. I think you could make a case for more thinner layers makes it harder for moister to wick across a given distance but don't hold me to that 'cause I'm not sure.

However the layers are done, we have the remaining problem of how does the sweat get removed. As a practical matter that's happening due to air movement. It doesn't have to be a lot but it's always going to be some and air movement is going to be more efficient than pure diffusion. Fortunately we're generally moving while riding and that helps with transporting moisture.

Personally I favor riding in all permeable fabrics down to about 30 degrees (unless it's raining), below that point I start to need an wind breaking outer layer. I've avoided Gore (etc) waterproof layers in cycling because my understanding was always that salt crystals trapped in the fabric would reduce the permeability to zero and riding on winter-salted roads seems incompatible with that understanding. That said, I have superior light and warm Gore-like gear for rock climbing and motorcycling that's proved out very well in wet/cold conditions and been worth what they cost.

Most people start to move to wind breaking layers at temps more like the 40s-50s but it's the same math for all of us. The other math that's key is keeping the core warm enough that we don't reduce blood flow to the extremities. I grew up with the adage "if your hands are cold, wear socks; if your feet are cold, wear a hat". The math behind that old wisdom is left as an exercise for the reader.

Beyond all of that, there ought to be benefit in reflecting back some radiant heat to the wearer. The best base layer I've ever used is older Craft, what I like about it is the front covering that's a wind barrier, interestingly an alpine mountaineer turned me onto this stuff. That this works so well (IMX, YMMV) says volumes about air movement at the innermost layer.

As a side-note, I was talking with a biologist friend the other evening who was relating that a particular kind of silk can store electrical charge and release it as heat. That's pretty cool and this is pure speculation but I'd think most silks share that property, not that I have any mechanism by which I think it's acting when we ride. Also we were both under the influence of some beers.

[Bob Loblaw]

TD is right...gotta figure out what works. But here in CT, although we lack the high mountains, it's not flat by any stretch, and to a lesser degree if you aren't going up, you're going down. On Sunday I did 82 miles starting at 19F and finishing at 34F with 5500 vertical feet.

What works for me is preventing sweat at all costs. In my experience, if you get sweaty, you're screwed. No matter how hydrophobic or water/air permeable your kit, if your sweat saturates through your base layer, you can forget about being anything remotely close to comfortable for the rest of the ride. Your only hope at that point is lots of bulky layers and a good windbreaker.

When I leave the house, I am cold for the first 15-20 minutes, then my body reaches a kind of equilibrium where I feel the cold on my arms, but my core is warm.

So my advice is dress light, no shell. Keep the knees warm, and carry a windbreaker for the long descents.

Good luck.

BL

Well I wish you'd help us out and share all this top secret stuff...

I _really_ have a tough time with this... I was born and raised in FLA, lived there the first 40 years of my life until I moved to the arctic tundra that is the N.Ga mountains...

Seems there are only two modes here... 1) climbing and sweating your a$$ off.. 2)screaming downhill freezing your a$$ off...

I have found that winter and the accompanying wardrobe makes #1 happen faster, and #2 worse...

So... whatcha got?

[Ti Designs]

Well I wish you'd help us out and share all this top secret stuff...

OK, but what works for me may not work for you. I find I can regulate air flow using the zipper on my jacket, so my torso gets air flow at lower speeds, I pull the zipper up when the speed goes up. When I'm on the trainer I notice that my arms sweat a fair amount. On the road I've noticed the arms saturate too quickly so I need more wicking layer there. I also hate when the end of the sleeve pulls away from my glove liner leaving a cold section at my wrist. My solution for both problems was to take some old Craft base layers with holes in them and use the material to have thumb loop arm warmers. They double up on the base layer, they keep the sleeves from riding back and they cost next to nothing 'cause I have an almost endless supply of base layers with holes...


This is just one example of a problem area and my own personal solution.

[AngryScientist]

my biggest "problem area" has always been my feet. i think i've got the rest of my body well covered(pun!), but the feet, i just cant keep them warm enough to be comfortable for much over 1.5 hrs when its really cold. maybe it's for lack of gear, but the feet are real problem areas IMO, because they dont really move when you're riding, just hang down there on the pedals, not much blood flow, perfect candidates for getting frigid, and numb.

any ideas about that?

[Lionel]

my biggest "problem area" has always been my feet. i think i've got the rest of my body well covered(pun!), but the feet, i just cant keep them warm enough to be comfortable for much over 1.5 hrs when its really cold. maybe it's for lack of gear, but the feet are real problem areas IMO, because they dont really move when you're riding, just hang down there on the pedals, not much blood flow, perfect candidates for getting frigid, and numb.

any ideas about that?
Lake winter shoes.

[fiamme red]

my biggest "problem area" has always been my feet. i think i've got the rest of my body well covered(pun!), but the feet, i just cant keep them warm enough to be comfortable for much over 1.5 hrs when its really cold. maybe it's for lack of gear, but the feet are real problem areas IMO, because they dont really move when you're riding, just hang down there on the pedals, not much blood flow, perfect candidates for getting frigid, and numb.

any ideas about that?MKS touring pedals with clips and straps (or just BMX platform pedals) and hiking boots. Add chemical toe warmers if it gets really cold.

[93legendti]

Lake winter shoes.
Or Sidi, but the idea is the same. Winter cycling shoes are a must for winter riding when temps are under the freezing mark. I've had my Sidis for probably 10 yrs.

[Bob Loblaw]

The feet are hard for everyone. What sort of pedals are you using? I have found that metal cleats create a huge heat sink. Plastic ones draw significantly less warmth from the bottom of your feet.

Also, wearing thicker socks can cause huge problems. Rather than insulate your feet, the added thickness restricts circulation. In cycling shoes, unless they are oversize, stick to normal, lightweight wool cycling socks and layer over the shoes.

I wear a set of these neoprene socks (http://www.rei.com/product/729120/seirus-hyperlite-stormsocks-waterproof-socks,-black,-large?preferredSku=7291200033?cm_mmc&mr:trackingCode=B9643787-80C5-DE11-974B-0019B9C043EB&mr:referralID=NA) cut down to fit over a cycling shoe, and a standard cycling bootie over that. Keeps me relatively comfortable down to single digits F.

BL

my biggest "problem area" has always been my feet. i think i've got the rest of my body well covered(pun!), but the feet, i just cant keep them warm enough to be comfortable for much over 1.5 hrs when its really cold. maybe it's for lack of gear, but the feet are real problem areas IMO, because they dont really move when you're riding, just hang down there on the pedals, not much blood flow, perfect candidates for getting frigid, and numb.

any ideas about that?

[dsb]

<snip>
What works for me is preventing sweat at all costs. In my experience, if you get sweaty, you're screwed. No matter how hydrophobic or water/air permeable your kit, if your sweat saturates through your base layer, you can forget about being anything remotely close to comfortable for the rest of the ride. Your only hope at that point is lots of bulky layers and a good windbreaker.

When I leave the house, I am cold for the first 15-20 minutes, then my body reaches a kind of equilibrium where I feel the cold on my arms, but my core is warm.

So my advice is dress light, no shell. Keep the knees warm, and carry a windbreaker for the long descents.

Good luck.

BL

OK, the sweat thing makes sense...

The last 'cold' ride I did I started out with _everything_ on, including my rain/wind jacket 'cause I was cold... Perhaps that made me start to sweat too quickly on the 1st climb? Thereby negating the possibility of warmth from there on?

TiD... Zippers and cuff gap? That's the best you got? Come on man... you're holding out... :)

For someone who is completely clueless on this (Me...) would you say that this has any basis in reality for the temp ranges given (from a function standpoint, disregarding $$$), or is it just a sales pitch?

http://www.assos.com/en/44/als.aspx

Suggested modifications?

[Lewym]

Craft makes a baselayer with a windstopper front...but consensus here doesn't seem to support that theory?

Don't know about the consensus, RR, but I have the Craft baselayer with the windstopper front in both long and short sleeves. Love them. Under a jersey in the low 50s, mid 40s. Or, base layer plus a jacket takes me into the mid-30s. Add a wool jersey in the middle and I can go as cold as I would ever go in Seattle (if it is snowing in town, it is a powder day at Alpental).

For me, the Craft baselayers are with and without the WS layer are the bomb.

[Ti Designs]

TiD... Zippers and cuff gap? That's the best you got? Come on man... you're holding out... :)


I find you can go to any good bike shop and find 80% of your winter riding clothing on a good day. On a bad day you'll find the good booties (the ones with a real bottom) are only in stock in XS of XFL and they only sell base layers with full length metal zippers... It's just a few areas that make each rider different. I find the helmet cover, the fleece headband that drops down over my ears, the scarf and my custom base layer arm warmers make rides comfortable. As for hands and feet going numb, it's not so much the cold at your hands or feet as much as your body's own defense to the cold. Keep the legs warm and the feet will take care of themselves. For longer rides I use embrocation to trick my body into keeping circulation. That's something I can't give advice about because everybody reacts to it differently. I have sports balm, Quolium, Mad Alchemy and a few others in a variety of hot or mild flavors. The greasy ones take a toll on my base layers, but I find the Sports Balm has a second function. In dry conditions it doesn't work very well compared to the others. In wet conditions it kicks into overdrive. If I think the ride may turn wet I'll wear it as insurance, knowing full well that if it's not wet on the ride the stuff is going to kill me in the shower.

Custom clothing is a fact of winter riding. I've invited clothing reps from a number of large clothing producers to join me on some winter rides. It'll never happen. As long as they don't go on the rides they're the experts on clothing. There are so many pieces of clothing that would be perfect 'cept for that one detail. At this point I have the piece altered or have that detail added. I go on base mileage rides, they're 4+ hours, last year most of them never got above 20 degrees. I'm eating every 30 - 45 minutes. The back pockets of my Harvard team jacket (made by Castelli) are next to impossible to get into with winter gloves on (while riding a fixed gear on ice). It would be great if there were zippered pockets on the arms that are just long and deep enough for two bars each. Body heat would keep the food warm enough to eat and they're easy to get to.