tradgedy on Rapha ride - wisdom from Speedvagen

[AngryScientist]

a recent tragic death on a Rapha ride led to this post on the Speedvagen blog, i think it's good and worth the read:

http://speedbloggen.com/2011/11/death/

There was a Rapha ride last weekend that took riders down Las Flores Canyon. My father lived up that canyon in the early 80′s and I know it like the back of my hand. I’ve been riding it since 1983…. and I just rode it last week. I always give every descent my full attention and I treat every descent the same way a surfer treats a big wave… with the respect and attention it deserves. The rider that died simply overcooked a turn near Hume and Las Flores. A moment’s inattention on a diminishing radius turn and he’s gone. Riding is playing.. but its also a skill. Always always always treat your riding like a skill that takes devotion and patience. Have fun… but never bite off more than you can chew and never be afraid to slow down or take a break. I’m not a fan of fondos and fun rides…. they tend to celebrate disconnected riding. I hate that someone died on that road. I hate that the shop chose Las Flores when there are other descents that take so much less skill (when I read the email I commented to a friend that it was too technical a descent for that kind of ride and that someone would get killed). I’m tired of seeing folks ride like it doesn’t take skill. I’m tired of seeing guys that are more worried with getting faster than they are about getting better. I traded messages with a friend.. we host a slow long Saturday ride up the coast. We’ve decided to change the focus of the ride to being about the group riding old school, perfectly aligned 2 abreast with nary a wheel overlapping. I love the Lance effect and all… but how you ride is what matters. It’s easy to get strong, it’s an endless conversation with yourself and the bike to get connected. Ride beautifully. It’s what matters. You may think it’s ok to die riding because its doing something you love. I call bull????. Dying having overcooked a turn is a real ???? way to die. We’ve all over cooked a turn in our lives… its not worth dying over and knowing how to save it is a basic skill. Yes it takes luck. Yes people die every day in any number of stupid ways, and people die on their bikes. Work on your descending. Dont get suckered into anything above your level. Dont be afraid to melt a rim or pull off and think about the next set of turns. And really think about those big group rides. If the nature of the ride is that being off the front or the top ten folks is the only good place to be… tap out. It’s not worth it. I love Rapha products. I’ve come to love them. I love the branding and the adverts… but you know it isn’t real. Don’t show up for that ride thinking what you see on the website is real. Riding isn’t a sentimental act. It’s not romantic until you’re off the bike and the photos are processed and printed. Ride present, ride smart, think critically and make your own luck. I saw a picture of the guy… he looks like he was a lovely fellow. His bars were too high, too many spacers. I’m willing to bet his stem was too short. How you sit on a bike matters. How your bike fits matters. How much weight you have and where your center of gravity is going down a hill matters. It’s life and death. Thanks for indulging my rant. I’ll probably take this down later.

[zap]

Swoop certainly has an interesting pov.

[christian]

I see lots of unfounded assumptions and nonsense. Basically blaming the guy for having too many spacers under his stem and, ergo, being a Fred and poor bike handler and thus culpable is pretty despicable in my mind.

Swoop doesn't really know what happened, so I think he should shut up about it.

I'm surprised and disappointed that that represents the "editorial" views of Vanilla, Speedvagen, Sacha, Mike DeSalvo et al.

[AngryScientist]

I see lots of unfounded assumptions and nonsense. Basically blaming the guy for having too many spacers under his stem and, ergo, being a Fred and poor bike handler and thus culpable is pretty despicable in my mind.

Swoop doesn't really know what happened, so I think he should shut up about it.

I'm surprised that that represents the "editorial" views of Vanilla, Speedvagen, Sacha, Mike DeSalvo et al.

i agree.

the worthwhile part, for me at least, is taking caution on rides like this. i dont have a whole lot of experience in descending tricky roads, and reading stories like this is enlightening about how dangerous it can be when you are out of your element.

it's a bit tasteless to blame a guy who you dont know for such a tragedy though, that i agree is too much.

[topher]

I don't think he's blaming the guy - he's trying to hold ride organizers responsible for the routes they plan... the steepest hill isn't always the best hill when you are riding it with large groups of people with a variety of skills. A ride organizer should know that, and plan accordingly, even if it means its not as "Epic".

[Gummee]

A few years ago a triathlete did the same thing in the Pendleton Tri. Overcooked a corner and died.

Shame really.

Going fast downhill is a skill. Some have it. Some need to practice. Overconfidence can literally be a killer.

M

[Gothard]

Was he there on the spot at the time of the accident?
Is he a recognised expert on bicycle accidents?

Unless the answer is yes to both these questions, it is all speculation, and to a degree, derogatory remarks

[BikeSuperFreak]

.

[zap]

.

[Pegoready]

Swoop could put that in a personal blog, but I'm pretty disappointed it ended up in the Speedvagen blog.

[Lovetoclimb]

I don't think he's blaming the guy - he's trying to hold ride organizers responsible for the routes they plan... the steepest hill isn't always the best hill when you are riding it with large groups of people with a variety of skills. A ride organizer should know that, and plan accordingly, even if it means its not as "Epic".

This was exactly how I interpreted it. Then did some further reading of recent blog posts and you can see that he places a large amount of integrity in how Speedvagen bikes handle in descents. It is one area many of probably (at least myself) often overlook. When gassed from the climb, but still wanting to "grip it and rip it" we attack the descent. I have several instances of close calls. Luck has been on my side when skills were not.

[Joachim]

It comes over as elitist to me. But what do I know, I have spacers below my stem.

[93legendti]

Ah, Dr. Swoop lives

[veloduffer]

I don't think it was being elitist but you could interpret the tone that way. I believe the writer was asking riders to do a bit of self-reflection on their skill level and ego. It's akin to skiers who try a trail that is more difficult than their skills. And he is right about the shop choosing a difficult route. If he cut off his "rant" right here, it would be more effective:

"....We’ve decided to change the focus of the ride to being about the group riding old school, perfectly aligned 2 abreast with nary a wheel overlapping. I love the Lance effect and all… but how you ride is what matters. It’s easy to get strong, it’s an endless conversation with yourself and the bike to get connected. Ride beautifully. It’s what matters. "


I like the idea of their Saturday ride - learning to ride double file. That's the way I was taught at racing camps and team rides. But I'm old, almost older than dirt.

[bicycletricycle]

understanding the risks inherent in the activities we participate in is something we should all do more often.

[d_douglas]

Couldn't agree more. Who cares that he has too many spacers? He made a mistake and suffered mortal consequences - that is the concern, not that it appears that he was a 'Fred' (I am one of those apparently) and yes, I would have opted not to include this kind of diatribe in my brand if I were Sacha.

I ride a Speedvagen, and it is cool, but frame characteristics are the last things that need to be discussed in light of the death of this person.

My condolences...




I see lots of unfounded assumptions and nonsense. Basically blaming the guy for having too many spacers under his stem and, ergo, being a Fred and poor bike handler and thus culpable is pretty despicable in my mind.

Swoop doesn't really know what happened, so I think he should shut up about it.

I'm surprised and disappointed that that represents the "editorial" views of Vanilla, Speedvagen, Sacha, Mike DeSalvo et al.

[d_douglas]

It comes over as elitist to me. But what do I know, I have spacers below my stem.


you must be new - do you know Noel / Swoop / the author?

[Joachim]

you must be new - do you know Noel / Swoop / the author?

Whether I know him or not and whether he really is elitist or not are irrelevant. How this written piece comes over to me, is relevant (to me personally). When he states "I bet his stem is too short", what does that have to do with anything? Maybe getting a shorter stem dialed his fit in (if he did have a short stem), who knows? He could've left the "spacer and stem" out of it. What is next? The guy had a beard? He could've sticked with it's a dangerous road, the shop should've known better, it's a tragedy etc. Again, that is just my personal opinion, or ATMO. And if Speedvagen/Vanilla etc agree to his personal view,, that is their choice, but it could come over the wrong way.

But it seems we agree to a certain point. Anyway I'm sure he is a great guy and probably has a beard. Maybe I even talked to him when I asked about a Speedvagen...


(Since English is my 4th language, it should've used "snobby" instead of "elitist").

[benb]

If you don't understand why he mentions the stem being too short or poor weight distribution as relevant on a twisty descent that averages 14% maybe you shouldn't comment? :rolleyes:

We've gone a little too far towards accepting everyone and letting everyone pretend they are an expert just cause they pulled out the credit card. Cycling is still a dangerous sport and maybe the "roadie elitism" of old actually serves a purpose.

It's starting to feel like we're almost to the point that proper group riding is a skill that will be totally lost cause basically an entire generation has no clue how to do it outside the narrow window of people who race.

The general tone of his rant reminds me of what went on in the motorcycle community over the past 10 years with big group rides that use the internet to help get organized. These things used to be kept to more of an "in crowd" and you didn't get invited till you showed humility and the willingness and aptitude to learn how to be safe. Then everyone gets on the internet and everyone finds out about them. The big rides get dangerous, some people die, eventually the political correctness disappeared, and then people wised up and stopped sharing so much about the rides online because it made them too accessible. Maybe the same thing will have to happen with bicycling.

[fuzzalow]

I did not interpret that blog posting as elitist. It is a terrible shame that someone had the misfortune of making a mistake and the penalty extracted was life.

FWIW, I race and have raced both cars and motorcycles on the track - any street environment is multiple times more hazardous than any race track. And the performance envelope capability of a bicycle is minuscule so once you go over there is almost no way to get it back.

Take nothing for granted out there. Every one of us has made a mistake, sometimes there is the skill or just the dumb luck to make that mistake in a place where the tipping point wasn't permanent.

[David Kirk]

It feels to me like Noel's post tries to do something we all do to a certain extent when a tragedy occurs - we try to distance and separate ourselves from the people or actions associated with the tragedy. Like when someone dies driving while texting and driving we tell ourselves that this could never happen to us because we don't text and drive. By saying that his stem may have been too high or too short it feels like he is telling himself that this is less likely to happen to him because he is set up long and low.

I know nothing about the unfortunate accident or if the rider's position may have contributed to it but I do know it was an accident - and accidents happen. We can do all we want to minimize the risk but there is always a certain level of risk regardless of skill or coolness level. Poop happens and sometimes it happens to us or those we know and love. I think it's too bad that Noel took this direction but the important thing here, IMO, is to learn from the accident to do what we can to minimize our risks and to send our collective sympathy to the family of the victim.

Sincerely,

Dave

[Joachim]

If you don't understand why he mentions the stem being too short or poor weight distribution as relevant on a twisty descent that averages 14% maybe you shouldn't comment? :rolleyes:


Ok. You are right. I have no idea.

[charliedid]

I give the guy the benefit ouf the doubt having no knowledge of him, but it comes off a bit sanctimonious to me.

Accidents will happen.

[William]

I know nothing about the unfortunate accident or if the rider's position may have contributed to it but I do know it was an accident - and accidents happen. We can do all we want to minimize the risk but there is always a certain level of risk regardless of skill or coolness level. Poop happens and sometimes it happens to us or those we know and love.

I think it's too bad that Noel took this direction but the important thing here, IMO, is to learn from the accident to do what we can to minimize our risks and to send our collective sympathy to the family of the victim.

Sincerely,

Dave

These.

When I first read it after Angry posted (before any other comments followed) I took it as a PSA with an elitist twist. Tone sounded familiar. As others posted it turned out to be Swoop/Noel....made sense.

I understand what he's saying and there is a nugget of truth to it. The "Fred" insinuation of the deceased was not needed. One can argue whether he meant that tone or not, but it doesn't really matter if a good percentage of people are reading that tone.

Ride hard. Ride Safe.






William

[staggerwing]

It was just a frustrated ramble by someone of experience.

Clearly, there are a couple of valid points in there, as well as a couple of lines that should not have seen the light of day. There even seems to be a tacit realization of the latter when suggesting he might pull the post later.

I grew up around small airplanes, and read many accident reports, as well as knowing a few that where featured in those narratives. It is extremely frustrating to see those you admire, get hurt doing something they love, and even worse when attributed to "user error."

Peace to the family, those who where on this ride, and those reflecting on the events that occurred.

[dancinkozmo]

If you don't understand why he mentions the stem being too short or poor weight distribution as relevant on a twisty descent that averages 14% maybe you shouldn't comment? :rolleyes:

We've gone a little too far towards accepting everyone and letting everyone pretend they are an expert just cause they pulled out the credit card. Cycling is still a dangerous sport and maybe the "roadie elitism" of old actually serves a purpose.

It's starting to feel like we're almost to the point that proper group riding is a skill that will be totally lost cause basically an entire generation has no clue how to do it outside the narrow window of people who race.

The general tone of his rant reminds me of what went on in the motorcycle community over the past 10 years with big group rides that use the internet to help get organized. These things used to be kept to more of an "in crowd" and you didn't get invited till you showed humility and the willingness and aptitude to learn how to be safe. Then everyone gets on the internet and everyone finds out about them. The big rides get dangerous, some people die, eventually the political correctness disappeared, and then people wised up and stopped sharing so much about the rides online because it made them too accessible. Maybe the same thing will have to happen with bicycling.

Sheesh...talk about elitist :rolleyes:

[rugbysecondrow]

It feels to me like Noel's post tries to do something we all do to a certain extent when a tragedy occurs - we try to distance and separate ourselves from the people or actions associated with the tragedy. Like when someone dies driving while texting and driving we tell ourselves that this could never happen to us because we don't text and drive. By saying that his stem may have been too high or too short it feels like he is telling himself that this is less likely to happen to him because he is set up long and low.

I know nothing about the unfortunate accident or if the rider's position may have contributed to it but I do know it was an accident - and accidents happen. We can do all we want to minimize the risk but there is always a certain level of risk regardless of skill or coolness level. Poop happens and sometimes it happens to us or those we know and love. I think it's too bad that Noel took this direction but the important thing here, IMO, is to learn from the accident to do what we can to minimize our risks and to send our collective sympathy to the family of the victim.

Sincerely,

Dave

Agreed.

[BobbyJones]

OK... all the professional cyclists in the house raise your hands.

Thought so.

S**t happens. For whatever reason, it still happens. Even the great ones crash.

Thank you Mr. Kirk for actually making sense.

[d_douglas]

Whether I know him or not and whether he really is elitist or not are irrelevant. How this written piece comes over to me, is relevant (to me personally). When he states "I bet his stem is too short", what does that have to do with anything? Maybe getting a shorter stem dialed his fit in (if he did have a short stem), who knows? He could've left the "spacer and stem" out of it. What is next? The guy had a beard? He could've sticked with it's a dangerous road, the shop should've known better, it's a tragedy etc. Again, that is just my personal opinion, or ATMO. And if Speedvagen/Vanilla etc agree to his personal view,, that is their choice, but it could come over the wrong way.

But it seems we agree to a certain point. Anyway I'm sure he is a great guy and probably has a beard. Maybe I even talked to him when I asked about a Speedvagen...


(Since English is my 4th language, it should've used "snobby" instead of "elitist").


I apologize for my extreme sarcasm. Swoop is a bit infamous for being a very knowledgeable and experienced cyclist as well as an active and 'vocal' member of this forum. He may be here and reading this - I am not sure.

In any case, while I appreciate his sentiment, I don't agree that when 'eulogizing' the death of someone, you need to point out the potential 'fault' in his actions resulting in death (ie., too many spacers, short stem, not 'pro' enough). I am a 'Fred' by all accounts, and I will ride most anything, but I tend to fall way off the back of my group when out of my league - I am cautious. Mistakes can still happen and I accept the consequences of the risks I take by cycling, whether to work, on a trail or on a mountainous pass.

Rest assured that you and I are agreeing and it was simply my sarcasm that was misdirected. Sorry.

[christian]

If you don't understand why he mentions the stem being too short or poor weight distribution as relevant on a twisty descent that averages 14% maybe you shouldn't comment? :rolleyes:

The point is, he doesn't know the stem was too short, nor whether the rider was riding carefully. He just posits it was and he wasn't. It's classless and in poor taste. He doesn't know anymore about the accident than you or I do.

With respect to the larger issues at hand regarding group riding, I'm certain many of us agree. I ride bicycles exclusively alone or with small groups of close friends who share my fondness for rigorous group riding, was riding "The Pace" long before Nick Ienatsch christened it, and avoid large group rides. That's my view of prudent riding.

But I don't claim to have any magical insight into what happened in this case. So making broad pronouncements about the skills of the rider, or even the character of the ride, strikes me as speculative and in terrible taste, given the circumstances.

FWIW, I lived in LA from 1997 to 2001 and have ridden the road in question numerous times. I don't find it in any way exceptional.

[Uncle Jam's Army]

Several people have died in So Cal this year alone because of a crash on a descent. The first one was a very experienced racer who hit some unexpected gravel descending GMR, taking his bike out from underneath him, causing him to slide into the opposite lane, with an oncoming car running him over.

The second person died about a month or so ago taking one of the steep descents (about 18 percent) in Laguna Beach (coincidentally, where Robert the rider in the Rapha event lived). Guy just had too much speed and ran right into a wall near the bottom. Don't know much about his experience level.

According to Robert's brother, Robert certainly was not a novice on a bike, and, though he may not have the years that many of us have on a bike, I have to believe he felt competent enough to handle any descent in the Santa Monica Mountains.

But who here is an authority to say this ride was a bad idea simply because it has a technical descent in it? Levi's Gran Fondo has even more technical descents in it, and people do crash in them. But that's the risk we all take when we decide to ride King Ridge, Las Flores Canyon and [fill in the blank steep descent]. That's the trouble I have with Noel's rant, implying that Robert's inexperience, or the wisdom of the route, led to this tragedy, along with the idiotic and gratuitous comments about Robert's bike fit.

The only thing to take out of this is to be safe out there, descending or otherwise, no matter your experience level, because a small imperceptible pebble can change your fun descent into a tragedy.

[Lifelover]

Cowgirl/Swoop/Noel needs to exercise as much caution in expressing his opinions as he suggest we doing when riding.

I have always assumed that his perception of the world is formed by his profession as a therapist. Most of his interactions with people outside of his circle of influence are with troubled folks that he views as weak and inferior. This pushes him to think we are all weak and inferior.

He is a self proclaimed elitist and I suspect he really believes he is doing us all a favor.

As he once pointed out himself, the Urban dictionary (http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=swoop) shows that his screen name was appropriately applicable.

[christian]

To be fair to Swoop, Toots posted a reply from him on the board across the hall was a lot more nuanced and substantial than his original blog entry.

In general, I think he's right about the "big rides." There's a reason so many of us avoid Gimbels, for instance.

[Louis]

How typical of Noel/Swoop to manage to criticize (in a most unfortunate venue) riders (because he certainly wouldn't consider them cyclists) who aren't quite up to his standards. The guy's body is still warm, but hey, it's not too soon to hammer him for having a stem that's too high and too short.

[benb]

The problem is since no one is allowed to criticize anyone in road cycling these days you can ride for a long time, maybe even get to a high level of racing, and have no frigging clue how a bicycle handles and what you need to do to get out of a dangerous situation. For people who don't go out and actively seek out that knowledge for themselves by doing something like dirt biking, motorcycling, mountain biking, etc.. they might never learn this stuff until they are in a situation where it could be life and death, whereas in other 2-wheeled pursuits you are forced to learn these skills early on.

That is where Swoop is coming from. It is bad for him to surmise exactly what happened but I think he is talking to the general issue with road cycling and hoping others are a little more cautious.

You're right, maybe the stem thing is out of line. But how many experience cyclists have you met that don't even know what counter-steering means? You can get really good at riding a road bike without knowing what any of that stuff is until you've actually placed yourself on a road that can kill you.

Totally different rant but it's one of those reasons why we get crap like being allowed to ride up mountains but being required to walk or get a car ride back down!

[ergott]

Noel's response (from elsewhere)

---------- Forwarded message ----------


There's a local recent trend here in LA towards unsanctioned Fondo and shop rides. The attendance has been large and they've been coming almost weekly. They've been trending towards more and more of the most technical and dangerous of the local terrain. There's been no vetting process for the skill level of the riders. These are population dense areas. There's already daily established rides that have a sort of built in vetting process. I'm not sure there good for the local community, the individual attending, or the sport. I'm disheartened by the trend.

This is a particularly dangerous descent. One that has little room for error and grades over 14%. The riders didn't ride up it and therefore came to it blindly. It was a weekend. There's no real easy way down that road. It wasn't closed so that a large group could ride it safely. There are any number of routes that have a history of large groups and more forgiving terrain.

I've never not been down this canyon with an out of towner or clearly less experienced cyclist without someone talking to them about how sketchy it is, or asking them to hold back, or follow their line. Where he crashed there's a place where folks pull off and let their rims cool....

Friends that received the email announcing the ride all expressed the same concern about the inclusion of that descent given the nature of the range of experience and skill levels that show up. Friends on the ride descended ahead of the pack for the obvious mess that might occur.

The ride wasn't vetted by the local community. There weren't people with flags warning riders or the layers of support that are important for folks that might be in over their head.

I said the things I said because I want everyone to think before they jump into these things. It's a seductive thing to go do a Rapha ride... but these are open roads and not really best visited by a 100 guys at a time blindly. Why are these rides popping up all the time now? It's a new phenomena.

The conversation, no matter how horrible is worth having.

The personal attacks.... make no sense to me. I'd never send a beginner skier down a double black diamond run on his own. Just looking at someone sometimes help you see where they are in their experience level.... and if anything I say makes you think before you attend... or encourages you to say to someone.. hey.. follow me down easy... I'll take the insult.

I'm left back to the same question.. is this trend towards unsanctioned quasi informal large group marketed rides a good idea? Here in LA and Malibu I'd say no. Go do the Simi RIde... it's big and its policed by the riders. Same with the Donut ride.

Los Angeles isn't small town New England.... and this descent is one of the two most dangerous in that area. Seducing people out of their experience level (with the best of intentions) happens.

The conversation needs to happen. There's no good time to have it.... and I mean no disrespect. There's an elephant in the room that needs to be mentioned no matter heavy handidness. At least its being discussed beyond the 'he died doing something he loved'.

I'm gutted by this.

Noel.

[christian]

You're right, maybe the stem thing is out of line. But how many experience cyclists have you met that don't even know what counter-steering means? You can get really good at riding a road bike without knowing what any of that stuff is until you've actually placed yourself on a road that can kill you. You can get fast on a road bike, but I don't think you can get "good" on one. Which I think is your point. But most of the people I ride with are pretty savvy about single-track vehicle dynamics; I don't think there's a single one who couldn't describe why countersteering works or explain the circle of friction. And all of them are, naturally, terrified of sidehacks.

[charliedid]

Noel's response (from elsewhere)

Well said.

[BumbleBeeDave]

How typical of Noel/Swoop to manage to criticize (in a most unfortunate venue) riders (because he certainly wouldn't consider them cyclists) who aren't quite up to his standards. The guy's body is still warm, but hey, it's not too soon to hammer him for having a stem that's too high and too short.

. . . nothing that Swoop says would surprise me any more. :(

BBD

[CPP]

Noel's response (from elsewhere)

That was constructive

[benb]

You can get fast on a road bike, but I don't think you can get "good" on one. Which I think is your point. But most of the people I ride with are pretty savvy about single-track vehicle dynamics; I don't think there's a single one who couldn't describe why countersteering works or explain the circle of friction. And all of them are, naturally, terrified of sidehacks.

Maybe I'm mistaken but I'm assuming you're talking about motorcyclists.. I'm a motorcyclist, my experience is almost all motorcyclists learn this stuff but if I talk to my roadie-only friends almost none of them have ever heard of it.

I don't mean to say you can't get "good" at handling a single-track vehicle by riding a road bicycle. Just that it is possible to stay in the dark longer then other single-track pursuits.

On a motorcycle you will notice something like weight distribution or counter-steering on the first turn out of the parking lot, and in a lot of places no one is even going to let you out on the road till you've proven you have a cursory understanding.

On a mountain bike if you don't know/understand this stuff you're going to fall on your ass a lot at low speed until you figure it out if someone doesn't come along and teach you first.

But if you're a 100% roadie you can go a long damn way, and even win some races, and not learn this stuff. No one is going to say anything to you, especially if your motor is bigger then theirs. We just don't spend much time turning and you can avoid the technical stuff even as a racer by picking and choosing your races. Some people learn it instinctively and that is good enough for road riding.. others don't learn it instinctively, and no one ever tries to help them.

edit: Again not saying that was the case with this guy.. just that it is a conversation that should be had and these kind of tragedies always bring it out of the closet again.

[sjbraun]

Just read Swoop's blog post, after having read the discussion here first. Have to disagree with those who found Swoop's comments to be sanctimonious. I read him as being really concerned a trend (large, loosely structured group rides run on challenging courses,)bthat seem more prevalent in his area. I think he's just saying we need to recognize the dangers inherent in our sport and be careful out there.

Wrt to the complaint of new riders not knowing how to handle their bikes or how to ride properly in a group; i'd ask those "old school" guys what they or their club have done to teach the new generation of riders these skills? I hear this complaint often, but don't see much action by the complainers to share the wisdom, culture, and skills they mastered in the old days. Ya gotta pass it on if you want it to continue.

Steve

[93legendti]

The problem is since no one is allowed to criticize anyone in road cycling these days...
I missed the memo...

[fiamme red]

Are these Rapha rides open to the general public, like a century or Gran Fondo? Do people ride in large packs, or small groups?

[93legendti]

What the good dr. wrote was about himself-I counted ~ 21 "I" and "I'm" 's.
Taking out the swoopism's and writing with tact and empathy would have allowed his (intended?) message to come thru:

There was a Rapha ride last weekend that took riders down Las Flores Canyon. My father lived up that canyon in the early 80′s and I know it like the back of my hand.
I hate that the shop chose Las Flores when there are other descents that take so much less skill (when I read the email I commented to a friend that it was too technical a descent for that kind of ride and that someone would get killed).
I saw a picture of the guy… he looks like he was a lovely fellow. I'm smart enough to know that guessing about the causes of his fatal crash would be foolish and premature.
(Riding) can be life and death. Sometimes, it’s not worth it. Ride smart, think critically and make (most of) your own luck.
Thanks for indulging my rant. I’ll probably take this down later.

[BobbyJones]

I apologize for my extreme sarcasm. Swoop is a bit infamous for being a very knowledgeable and experienced cyclist as well...

I wonder, what makes someone a very knowledgeable and experienced cyclist?

[William]

I wonder, what makes someone a very knowledgeable and experienced cyclist?

Experience.




W.

[oldguy00]

Swoop always seems to think he has the right answer, and that rubs people the wrong way. But if you can get past that, I don't think his post was in any way meant to be insulting to the guy who was killed.

[Ti Designs]

The problem is since no one is allowed to criticize anyone in road cycling these days you can ride for a long time, maybe even get to a high level of racing, and have no frigging clue how a bicycle handles and what you need to do to get out of a dangerous situation.


Why is that? The first step in any learning process is defining what you don't know. In road cycling, as it is with driving in this country, most people see themselves as well above average. Those who would criticize are seen as elitists.

Not so long ago there was a thread about polarizing words, the first word that came to my mind was competent, or the flip side, incompetent. Somehow being called incompetent has become an insult. Why is that? Most drivers feel they have a high level of competence in controlling their cars. Where did this skill come from? Have they spent the time to learn car control? Has there been hours of practice? In the vast majority of drivers the answer is no. Not only haven't they spent the time to learn, they don't understand the difference. Is this an elitist attitude of an autocross driver who takes pride in his driving ability? Yup. The real question is am I right?

Why is being incompetent such an insult? I'm incompetent in so many things - I never go to the self check-out line 'cause the teller there is incompetent (and elitist at the same time!). I've come to the conclusion that I was born with no natural talents (thanks mom), everything I can do I've learned. I embrace two things, incompetence and elitism. Incompetence is where I start - and knowing that allows me to learn. Elitist is where I wind up 'cause I know that so few others will acknowledge their own incompetence.

Learn how to ride...

[beeatnik]

Large group rides or experience level
Heard this comment just before the ride, "there are too many new bikes here." The guy who made the comment was in full Rapha and peeled off 5 min early. He was afraid of crashing his murdered-out Canyon. Then, in the first mile, my friend's buddy, riding a new Time, kept making comments about his bike being twitchy and the amount of riders. These were only 2 riders out of 50 plus but I imagine there were a few other guys out there just as anxious. I guess this speaks to the various experience levels on the ride.

The route
A female rider crashed on the first, less technical descent.

The rider
I rode behind him on the final climb for about a minute or two. I'm no cycling coach but I concluded he had years of experience (but according to his brother, he did not) since he was one of the stronger climbers and had great technique. He was also one of the oldest if not the oldest rider in the group. It's not difficult to sense motivation and drive in a rider's style.

The rider's group
He was following the line of a much more experienced (30 years) UCI licensed rider.

The descent
Right from the start, all I heard was squealing. The squealing of brakes in front of me. Then, I overcooked a corner and a very aggressive rider behind me screamed at me. The crash occurred a few seconds later.

The organization of the ride
A beautiful morning. A few nice speeches. The usual, "this is not a race but a social ride." And that was the nature of the ride, except, I'm sure I wasn't the only rider who didn't expect a "technical" descent. I was out there on 5 hours of sleep with new wheels and a not dialed-in cockpit. In any case, no warnings were given about the descent, even a perfunctory one.

The demographics of the ride
No one over 60 and 5 women. Also the slowest riders were the youngest, the USC Cycling kids. So, out of 7 "outliers" there were 2 crashes on descents. Not wheels touching or other lapses of etiquette.

[Villgaxx]

How typical of Noel/Swoop to manage to criticize (in a most unfortunate venue) riders (because he certainly wouldn't consider them cyclists) who aren't quite up to his standards. The guy's body is still warm, but hey, it's not too soon to hammer him for having a stem that's too high and too short.

spot on. my first reaction to that fool was jeez what a jerk. why in the name of holy heck would you puke up the kool-kidz bullcrap in a post about a tragic death? even craig gaulzetti gave up the your stem is too short schtick in public years ago. that noel is a therapist? how scary is that? i hope his clients know the toll-free number of an especially shameless attorney.

[dsb]

Some things are counter-intuitive and your natural instincts will get you in trouble...

When I was taking the mandatory class to get my first motorcycle road racing license the instructor said something that has always stuck with me:

When you get to the turn... TURN!

It may seem obvious, but his point is that no matter what else is happening with regard to entry speed, line, braking, traction, whatever... The fact is that if you don't turn, bad things happen... If you get to the turn in point and tip it in, you'll either make the turn or you'll lowside trying. Chances are that if you lowside you won't even slide off the pavement. Losing a little skin (or a lot) is better than the 'bad stuff' that can happen if you ride off the pavement.

This is not a persons natural instinct, you have to consciously wrap your head around it.

It has saved me numerous times...

[Ti Designs]

I wonder, what makes someone a very knowledgeable and experienced cyclist?

The ability and desire to learn, and a lot of time on the bike. Just a lot of time on the bike doesn't do it, I know of lots of riders who have riding for decades, but I still wouldn't consider good riders.

I learned a lot of what I know about climbing from John Allis when I first started riding with him. I had won Mt Washington as a junior a few years before that, it would have been easy for me to think I know all there is to know about climbing. Getting dropped on a hill by an old guy showed me there things to learn - John could do that.

In coaching I struggle with the issue that riders want to show off what they can do, not admit that there's something to learn. My job is to get them to slow down and learn technique, but somewhere in their heads they're telling themselves speed = good rider. The riders who can't let go of this can't be coached. Having the ability to rip their legs off is a wonderful coaching tool, almost as good as the sawzall is in the shop. At some point there comes a separation between the riders who think it's all about effort and those who want to learn. I have one rider who clearly wants to learn. I work with her on technique on the trainer, it's only been 6 weeks but I would gladly bet a months salary (I work in a bike shop, it's not as much as you might think) that she'll be dropping most of the guys come next spring.

[William]

Some things are counter-intuitive and your natural instincts will get you in trouble...

This is not a persons natural instinct, you have to consciously wrap your head around it.

It has saved me numerous times...



Sometimes you have to know how to crash, in order to survive.

I had an instance that I've written about on the forum in the past were skill and "the Lucky" are the only reason I'm still here today. You never know....




William

[rugbysecondrow]

I would agree with this, not saying it has anything to do with the riders death because I am not certain what happend in that instance.

I am an OK rider. I am better than I was when I started and next year I plan to be better than I am now. I try to get better because A) I generally try to improve at the things I do B) I want to make it home to hug my wife and kids. With all that said, cycling is a world that many people feel they can buy their way into. The latest bike, clothes (rapha) gear, shaved legs etc. Triathletes do the same thing. I hate riding bikes with triathletes and I don't do it anymore unless it is race day. Even then they spook me because they know didly about riding, but even worse is that they don't know they don't know which means they won't try to get better. Anyway, many folks buy a bike, put on the helmet (maybe it is on correctly) and set out on a ride thinking it is as easy as "riding a bike". False.

For me, I am a cautious descender. Sometimes the hill my be greater than my skill, so I slow down. I try to work over in my mind what I would do in situation X. While riding, I look for outs, I plan options A or B. I am prepared to take action if needed. I try to have my mind be proactive so I can react properly if that makes sense.

Even with all this said, I hope I don't die learning, that would suck. It is a risk I take as I try to improve.

The ability and desire to learn, and a lot of time on the bike. Just a lot of time on the bike doesn't do it, I know of lots of riders who have riding for decades, but I still wouldn't consider good riders.

I learned a lot of what I know about climbing from John Allis when I first started riding with him. I had won Mt Washington as a junior a few years before that, it would have been easy for me to think I know all there is to know about climbing. Getting dropped on a hill by an old guy showed me there things to learn - John could do that.

In coaching I struggle with the issue that riders want to show off what they can do, not admit that there's something to learn. My job is to get them to slow down and learn technique, but somewhere in their heads they're telling themselves speed = good rider. The riders who can't let go of this can't be coached. Having the ability to rip their legs off is a wonderful coaching tool, almost as good as the sawzall is in the shop. At some point there comes a separation between the riders who think it's all about effort and those who want to learn. I have one rider who clearly wants to learn. I work with her on technique on the trainer, it's only been 6 weeks but I would gladly bet a months salary (I work in a bike shop, it's not as much as you might think) that she'll be dropping most of the guys come next spring.

[sc53]

Cowgirl/Swoop/Noel needs to exercise as much caution in expressing his opinions as he suggest we doing when riding.

I have always assumed that his perception of the world is formed by his profession as a therapist. Most of his interactions with people outside of his circle of influence are with troubled folks that he views as weak and inferior. This pushes him to think we are all weak and inferior.

He is a self proclaimed elitist and I suspect he really believes he is doing us all a favor.

As he once pointed out himself, the Urban dictionary (http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=swoop) shows that his screen name was appropriately applicable.
Oh yeah, Lifelover. You nailed it. The minute I read the excerpt in OP original post I recognized that a$$ from the pa$t.

[BumbleBeeDave]

Oh yeah, Lifelover. You nailed it. The minute I read the excerpt in OP original post I recognized that a$$ from the pa$t.

. . . until now that he also uses the "cowgirl" handle. It makes a few things clearer from some other situations in the past.

BBD

[mister]

sounds a little like swoop has many valid points in his post.

Large group rides or experience level
Heard this comment just before the ride, "there are too many new bikes here." The guy who made the comment was in full Rapha and peeled off 5 min early. He was afraid of crashing his murdered-out Canyon. Then, in the first mile, my friend's buddy, riding a new Time, kept making comments about his bike being twitchy and the amount of riders. These were only 2 riders out of 50 plus but I imagine there were a few other guys out there just as anxious. I guess this speaks to the various experience levels on the ride.

The route
A female rider crashed on the first, less technical descent.

The rider
I rode behind him on the final climb for about a minute or two. I'm no cycling coach but I concluded he had years of experience since he was one of the stronger climbers and had great technique. He was also one of the oldest if not the oldest rider in the group. It's not difficult to sense motivation and drive in a rider's style.

The rider's group
He was following the line of a much more experienced (30 years) UCI licensed rider.

The descent
Right from the start, all I heard was squealing. The squealing of brakes in front of me. Then, I overcooked a corner and a very aggressive rider behind me screamed at me. The crash occurred a few seconds later.

The organization of the ride
A beautiful morning. A few nice speeches. The usual, "this is not a race but a social ride." And that was the nature of the ride, except, I'm sure I wasn't the only rider who didn't expect a "technical" descent. I was out there on 5 hours of sleep with new wheels and a not dialed-in cockpit. In any case, no warnings were given about the descent, even a perfunctory one.

The demographics of the ride
No one over 60 and 5 women. Also the slowest riders were the youngest, the USC Cycling kids. So, out of 7 "outliers" there were 2 crashes on descents. Not wheels touching or other lapses of etiquette.

[tannhauser]

If you don't understand why he mentions the stem being too short or poor weight distribution as relevant on a twisty descent that averages 14% maybe you shouldn't comment? :rolleyes:

We've gone a little too far towards accepting everyone and letting everyone pretend they are an expert just cause they pulled out the credit card. Cycling is still a dangerous sport and maybe the "roadie elitism" of old actually serves a purpose.

It's starting to feel like we're almost to the point that proper group riding is a skill that will be totally lost cause basically an entire generation has no clue how to do it outside the narrow window of people who race.

The general tone of his rant reminds me of what went on in the motorcycle community over the past 10 years with big group rides that use the internet to help get organized. These things used to be kept to more of an "in crowd" and you didn't get invited till you showed humility and the willingness and aptitude to learn how to be safe. Then everyone gets on the internet and everyone finds out about them. The big rides get dangerous, some people die, eventually the political correctness disappeared, and then people wised up and stopped sharing so much about the rides online because it made them too accessible. Maybe the same thing will have to happen with bicycling.

Hello.

[rain dogs]

This is the road right? The one that everyone in their car/motorbike/truck is racing UP on youtube? Just watching that car fly by descending cyclists seems like a disaster waiting to happen.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OlG8R2pBVGE

If that's the road (although it doesn't look anywhere near 14% so maybe it's not) ...then yeah,.... that route, on an open road may have been a very bad selection.

Especially when it seems that all people regardless of mobility method think its a personal race course.

[yngpunk]

The ability and desire to learn, and a lot of time on the bike. Just a lot of time on the bike doesn't do it, I know of lots of riders who have riding for decades, but I still wouldn't consider good riders.

I learned a lot of what I know about climbing from John Allis when I first started riding with him. I had won Mt Washington as a junior a few years before that, it would have been easy for me to think I know all there is to know about climbing. Getting dropped on a hill by an old guy showed me there things to learn - John could do that.

In coaching I struggle with the issue that riders want to show off what they can do, not admit that there's something to learn. My job is to get them to slow down and learn technique, but somewhere in their heads they're telling themselves speed = good rider. The riders who can't let go of this can't be coached. Having the ability to rip their legs off is a wonderful coaching tool, almost as good as the sawzall is in the shop. At some point there comes a separation between the riders who think it's all about effort and those who want to learn. I have one rider who clearly wants to learn. I work with her on technique on the trainer, it's only been 6 weeks but I would gladly bet a months salary (I work in a bike shop, it's not as much as you might think) that she'll be dropping most of the guys come next spring.

This is a similar philosophy when it comes to martial arts...reaching the black belt level is considered to be the starting point rather than the pinnacle

[beeatnik]

This is the road right? The one that everyone in their car/motorbike/truck is racing UP on youtube? Just watching that car fly by descending cyclists seems like a disaster waiting to happen.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OlG8R2pBVGE

If that's the road (although it doesn't look anywhere near 14% so maybe it's not) ...then yeah,.... that route, on an open road may have been a very bad selection.

Especially when it seems that all people regardless of mobility method think its a personal race course.

Not 100% sure, but the crash occurred at the 3:06 curve.

[rain dogs]

This is a similar philosophy when it comes to martial arts...reaching the black belt level is considered to be the starting point rather than the pinnacle

As much as this is true, and all the comments about being experienced are also true, I think there is a danger in assuming only newbies make mistakes.

Any rider can crash. Heck.... Pro tour riders go off the road all the time, and many of them are second to none in terms of bike handling.

This comes back to leadership:

If it's a casual ride and "not a race", then it should be kept casual. Either by marshalling it through race leaders, or by choosing an appropriate route/ride rules that doesn't associate itself to taking place like it's a race track.

People can make mistakes, regardless of experience levels and it's good to keep in mind all the parameters in the system.

All the woodworkers I know that are missing fingers are master woodworkers.

The doesn't mean either: master woodworkers will all be missing fingers, or anyone missing a finger is a master woodworker.

If I think "Somebody could really get hurt on this ride....." that says something.

[BillG]

Other than the spacers comment I think Swoop is right on, as confirmed by beeatnik. The spacer comment is unfortunate.

I liked Swoop's presence on this forum and I miss him. He made it less boring, he rode a lot, and he knew a lot about bikes and racing. He was obnoxious, but he was also funny so it makes up for it.

[firerescuefin]

After reading a couple of critiques, I expected to read the blog and be offended...I thought it was 100% spot on....and have a hard time digesting the negative reaction. Having done a few of the larger group rides in Colorado...and having sworn off local training crits because of the lack of skill of new riders that are kit'd to the max, he nailed it. Ti made a great comment of those being incompetent more focused on being offended being labeled incompetent, rather than choosing to learn the skills to be/and labeled competent. Perhaps (or not), in this case it may have cost a rider his life.

Bike set up/balance/maintenance is incrediby important, especially on technical descent. What is so hard about that to understand.

I have been an EMS, technical rescue, and fire instructor for 12 years. I tell every recruit I deal with that nothing is wrong with saying I don't know...cause I can get you there...but bul????ting yourself or your peers (fake it till you make it) gets people hurt and killed. It's pretty much what I got out of the article.

YMMV

[mjb266]

I haven't got a ton of time to go through the arguments being laid out, but Swoop's post really stuck with me. If he thinks that "riding beautifully" and practicing will prevent the types of things that happened on the Rapha ride he's an ass. Each of the videos below represents a rider with tens of thousands of hours on a bike cooking a turn. There are tons of additional examples that aren't caught on cameras. I particularly remember Decker crashing out of MSR a decade ago after crashing on a descent and breaking a leg. Everyone can crash after cooking a turn. Usually you don't die. This is a tragedy.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7YCuQsGVV20 (http://http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7YCuQsGVV20)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0O5d94P6JGo&feature=related
@ :40 seconds

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vvMFjecYvNE
@6:25

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m5BZ_oNyXdI&feature=related
@ :17 seconds

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v6ukTXr0CjA

My own personal nightmare...oncoming car on a descent
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H4VUWOxjokE

[texbike]

Life is a crap shoot. Skill is no guarantee of anything. I would say that this list of cyclists probably qualified as skilled:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_professional_cyclists_who_died_during_a_ra ce .

More than likely most of them had VERY few spacers below their stems.

Personally I think it's as much about luck as it is skill. Just ask Jens Voight. That cat is lucky to be alive after the crash he had in the 2009 TDF. Bottom line-when your time is up, your time is up. It doesn't matter if you're on a bike, a motorcycle, skydiving, in bed, or in the shower.

However, that Las Flores canyon does look dangerous. I wouldn't be as worried about the technical constraints of the descent as much as something like this coming from the opposite direction:

www.youtube.com/watch?v=QzqBaLhxqUc&feature=related

Ride Safe!

Texbike

[firerescuefin]

[QUOTE=mjb266]I haven't got a ton of time to go through the arguments being laid out, but Swoop's post really stuck with me. If he thinks that "riding beautifully" and practicing will prevent the types of things that happened on the Rapha ride he's an ass. Each of the videos below represents a rider with tens of thousands of hours on a bike cooking a turn. There are tons of additional examples that aren't caught on cameras. I particularly remember Decker crashing out of MSR a decade ago after crashing on a descent and breaking a leg. Everyone can crash after cooking a turn. Usually you don't die. This is a tragedy.

[QUOTE]


He never said it prevents it from happening...but it gives you additional skill to deal with it when/as it is happening or keeps it from happening at all. Someone who is trained in defensive/tactical performance driving has a larger skill set to draw from day to day on the road...no guarantee that he won't make a mistake or won't be taken out by someone else, but he is certainly better prepared.

[mister]

i think the riding beautiful thing correlates with discipline on the bike which correlates with experience.
how many experienced riders would ride all out on a known technical descent, with two way traffic, with 80 other riders the majority riding with the mentality of getting to the bottom first or finishing in the top ten?

the idea is you don't put entry level riders in that ^ situation because they don't have the experience to know that full extent of the consequences and make the best decision...beeatnik commenting about how there was no talk prior to descending about the difficulty and danger of the descent just drives the point home.

[BillG]

i think the riding beautiful thing correlates with discipline on the bike which correlates with experience.
how many experienced riders would ride all out on a known technical descent, with two way traffic, with 80 other riders the majority riding with the mentality of getting to the bottom first or finishing in the top ten?

the idea is you don't put entry level riders in that ^ situation because they don't have the experience to know that full extent of the consequences and make the best decision...beeatnik commenting about how there was no talk prior to descending about the difficulty and danger of the descent just drives the point home.

Absolutely. And even if someone is a very skilled rider it's effin' terrifying to descend under those conditions knowing that you are surrounded by less skilled riders who don't have any idea what's coming up.

[Ti Designs]

If it's a casual ride and "not a race", then it should be kept casual. Either by marshalling it through race leaders, or by choosing an appropriate route/ride rules that doesn't associate itself to taking place like it's a race track.

If ever you figure out how to do that, let me know. I have this theory that any 4 guys in lycra is a bike race. I've only been riding for 35 years, so far it's always held up. You're always going to have riders who don't know where their own limits are and cross them into the danger zone.


All the woodworkers I know that are missing fingers are master woodworkers.

In statistics there's this distribution known as time to failure where the probability of failure continues to get lower over time. The example is a light bulb burning out, a few fail right out of the package, some fail sooner the the normal service life. Once it gets to the right side of the graph you can be confident that the light is going to stay on another day. If master woodworkers are losing fingers it's because they've gotten cocky and taken off the blade guards.

[mister]

Absolutely. And even if someone is a very skilled rider it's effin' terrifying to descend under those conditions knowing that you are surrounded by less skilled riders who don't have any idea what's coming up.

yes.
two of swoops friends on facebook commented that they descended early because they didn't want to be in the group...anticipated riders would have problems.

[fuzzalow]

IMO. The points made bt Swoop are entirely correct. The unfortunate thing is that the crux of what I think he was trying to say gets lost by the emotional reaction readers have to his use of the hot buttons "Spacers" and "Short Stem". For many readers it seems with the use of that phrase, the post became personal. For me, I think it was poor writing on his part to shoehorn his self-identified catch phrase into the piece. But that self indulgence by the writer doesn't invalidate the points made towards the discussion.

C'mon folks, it's dangerous out there. Traffic, gravity, sheetmetal and Armco take no prisoners. So the Dirty Harry quip "Mans got to know his limitations" is too harsh a reflection and some would rather hear "We're all better than average" from Monty Python.

[benb]

I haven't got a ton of time to go through the arguments being laid out, but Swoop's post really stuck with me. If he thinks that "riding beautifully" and practicing will prevent the types of things that happened on the Rapha ride he's an ass. Each of the videos below represents a rider with tens of thousands of hours on a bike cooking a turn. There are tons of additional examples that aren't caught on cameras. I particularly remember Decker crashing out of MSR a decade ago after crashing on a descent and breaking a leg. Everyone can crash after cooking a turn. Usually you don't die. This is a tragedy.


This is fairly false reasoning. The pros you are finding videos of have a much different set of priorities when deciding how fast to go then a recreational rider should have. It is a lot easier to justify letting it all hang out in the Tour De France then it is on the local group ride.

Besides that if you know what to look for, it is clear there is a wide variation in bike handling skills in the Pro peloton. With that wide of a variation they can't all be amazing. They just got there because not all roles in a race require flawless bike handling skills. Occasionally having those skills is going to save your day and/or help you get the big win but they can still get along fairly nicely because at the end of the day even if you're a pro you're spending most of the day riding straight.

[mister]

This is fairly false reasoning. The pros you are finding videos of have a much different set of priorities when deciding how fast to go then a recreational rider should have. It is a lot easier to justify letting it all hang out in the Tour De France then it is on the local group ride.

Besides that if you know what to look for, it is clear there is a wide variation in bike handling skills in the Pro peloton. With that wide of a variation they can't all be amazing. They just got there because not all roles in a race require flawless bike handling skills. Occasionally having those skills is going to save your day and/or help you get the big win but they can still get along fairly nicely because at the end of the day even if you're a pro you're spending most of the day riding straight.

i didn't watch the videos, were they all of the schlecks? :p

edit:

this one sticks in my mind...

http://www.youtube.com/embed/0O5d94P6JGo

[palincss]

even craig gaulzetti gave up the your stem is too short schtick in public years ago.


No, he was at it over across the hall earlier this week.

[mister]

No, he was at it over across the hall earlier this week.

haha

[rain dogs]

If ever you figure out how to do that, let me know. I have this theory that any 4 guys in lycra is a bike race.

Certainly, and you've HAD this theory for 35 years.... so you know it's going to happen. Had you been on the ride, you would have known that 50 people in lycra down a gnarly descent would get extra-gnarly, wouldn't you.... thaz be the point.

two of swoops friends on facebook commented that they descended early because they didn't want to be in the group...anticipated riders would have problems.

Again, people KNEW there would be problems... or thought it was highly likely.

I'm not saying we need to create a "Nanny-state", I'm just saying that there were lots of people 1. who knew there would be problems and 2. others who went on the ride and didn't expect that route.

Sounds to me like more could have been done, before you even get close to babying people.

If your group ride attracts people who don't know "the rules" and "the etiquette", a lot of "Doris and Fred's" on new bikes in Rapha who just got off the golf course, then it's the ride leaders' responsibility to teach or inform them.

And if it isn't the ride leaders responsibility... then whose is it?

[mister]

^ so do you look for the riders with short stems and lots of spacers under their stems?
will that be well received?

how do you say it so that the entry level riders will understand and listen?

that's one of the things swoop is talkin about. lots of rider don't learn to ride well, they don't know they can't ride well and/or they don't care to learn to ride well.

[Mr. Squirrel]

i found two nice nuts across the road.

mr. squirrel

...elements of truth buried in a rant. in any other situation, cool.
but, here, the guy died.
not cool.

In Catalan, we say, "Es una bona idea,pero el temps es dolent".....It is a good idea, but the time is wrong....At this early date nothing is more appropriate than to simply express our condolences to the family for the tragic loss....and to the cycling community as we have lost one of our own. There will be time for lecturing and figuring out what went wrong later....

[palincss]

how many experienced riders would ride all out on a known technical descent, with two way traffic, with 80 other riders the majority riding with the mentality of getting to the bottom first or finishing in the top ten?


More, I think, than might do so on an unknown technical descent. I think it must be the height of hubris to go all out on an unknown descent. Isn't it true that in all the racing disciplines, the racers spend a lot of time studying the course, learning what the lines for the corners are?

[mister]

More, I think, than might do so on an unknown technical descent. I think it must be the height of hubris to go all out on an unknown descent. Isn't it true that in all the racing disciplines, the racers spend a lot of time studying the course, learning what the lines for the corners are?

dammit.
i meant to say a known technical descent that they had not ridden before...

you are right, riders and racers should know the course very well.

[beeatnik]

I was at my LBS yesterday chatting with the owner. He wasn't aware of the crash and he related that in his 35 plus years of riding he had seen 3 fatalities. He also said that he no longer does a ride which he essentially owned for over 25 years because he feels he's too old at 55. The ride is one of the biggest in SoCal and has no "climbs but a few grades." Now, this is a guy who raced for years and is somewhat of a legend in these parts. I'm sure he would be able to safely descend Las Flores 999 out of 1000x, but he thinks that one time is too much risk. Now, I dont think the same numbers apply to most 50 year old riders with 2 years experience.

[christian]

Maybe I'm mistaken but I'm assuming you're talking about motorcyclists.I'm talking about my cyclist friends, but 4 of 6 of them also ride motorbikes, so perhaps that's the common factor.

[nm87710]

:(

[rain dogs]

^ so do you look for the riders with short stems and lots of spacers under their stems?
will that be well received?

how do you say it so that the entry level riders will understand and listen?

that's one of the things swoop is talkin about. lots of rider don't learn to ride well, they don't know they can't ride well and/or they don't care to learn to ride well.

I guess I'm used to a pre-ride chat which addresses the entire group which outlines the rules and safety concerns, regardless of experience or spacers, and a full disclosure/thoughtful route selection.... but anyway... I think that quote of Mr. Squirrel is a good one for me.

I should shut up at this time, because ... well just because.

[mister]

I guess I'm used to a pre-ride chat which addresses the entire group which outlines the rules and safety concerns, regardless of experience or spacers, and a full disclosure/thoughtful route selection....

right. i would expect the same.
beeatnik's post sure makes it sound like there wasn't much talk about the descent...

Large group rides or experience level
Heard this comment just before the ride, "there are too many new bikes here." The guy who made the comment was in full Rapha and peeled off 5 min early. He was afraid of crashing his murdered-out Canyon. Then, in the first mile, my friend's buddy, riding a new Time, kept making comments about his bike being twitchy and the amount of riders. These were only 2 riders out of 50 plus but I imagine there were a few other guys out there just as anxious. I guess this speaks to the various experience levels on the ride.

The route
A female rider crashed on the first, less technical descent.

The rider
I rode behind him on the final climb for about a minute or two. I'm no cycling coach but I concluded he had years of experience (but according to his brother, he did not) since he was one of the stronger climbers and had great technique. He was also one of the oldest if not the oldest rider in the group. It's not difficult to sense motivation and drive in a rider's style.

The rider's group
He was following the line of a much more experienced (30 years) UCI licensed rider.

The descent
Right from the start, all I heard was squealing. The squealing of brakes in front of me. Then, I overcooked a corner and a very aggressive rider behind me screamed at me. The crash occurred a few seconds later.

The organization of the ride
A beautiful morning. A few nice speeches. The usual, "this is not a race but a social ride." And that was the nature of the ride, except, I'm sure I wasn't the only rider who didn't expect a "technical" descent. I was out there on 5 hours of sleep with new wheels and a not dialed-in cockpit. In any case, no warnings were given about the descent, even a perfunctory one.

The demographics of the ride
No one over 60 and 5 women. Also the slowest riders were the youngest, the USC Cycling kids. So, out of 7 "outliers" there were 2 crashes on descents. Not wheels touching or other lapses of etiquette.

[e-RICHIE]

right. i would expect the same.
beeatnik's post sure makes it sound like there wasn't much talk about the descent...

slate's post makes it sounds like there was talk about the descent atmo.
http://speedbloggen.com/2011/11/death/#comment-988

ps

arrange disorder

:) :) :)
:) :) :)
:rolleyes: :) :)

[thinpin]

i found two nice nuts across the road.

mr. squirrel
Good nuts and worth ingesting.
My mother used to say about certain people "you have to listen to thunder".
Thankfully these days, in this medium that no longer applies.

[mister]

slate's post makes it sounds like there was talk about the descent atmo.
http://speedbloggen.com/2011/11/death/#comment-988

ps

arrange disorder

:) :) :)
:) :) :)
:rolleyes: :) :)

oh thanks atmo

[beeatnik]

There was talk about the descent, but only amongst the team riders (Ritte, USC, some Bike Effect regulars) or guys who seemed acquainted with each other, maybe half the guys there. And this was at the top of Stunt, where if you know the area, you have the beautiful Pacific Ocean on one side and the Santa Monica Mountains on the other. In any case, none of the guys I rode with heard the "warnings."

I should add that I don't want to create the perception that I feel there are issues of liability or forethought. I recently started a thread about silly crashes. That kind of stuff has been on my mind. I may be unreasonable or deluded to believe that I can learn to manage every situation (my nature, possibly) with enough information. But I know there are infinite variables. I'm a grown man and the bottom line for me is that I should know enough to avoid unnecessarily dangerous situations (hard to define, I know). Descending Las Flores with the awareness of the tight spaces, fatigue, fast vehicle traffic, varying skill levels, I felt that I was risking too much. Too many variables. I worried about the same type of crash that Roberto suffered. Bottom line, it could have happened to me and I had those thoughts before the crash. I dont think most guys flying down Las Flores had the same thoughts. I wouldn't expect an elegant rider to be spooked, but a recreational cyclist like me (as skilled I believe myself to be) should always learn from fear.

[BumbleBeeDave]

i found two nice nuts across the road.

mr. squirrel

You are a genius. totally agree with your quotes.

BBD

[Uncle Jam's Army]

I can't agree with Noel or people defending what he wrote. He starts out talking about how he thought the ride was unsafe and lamenting such rides because it takes skill to go down Las Flores Canyon, don't get in over your head, don't think you're skilled because you wear Rapha products, calling bs on the people who commented Robert died doing what he loves. All intended to imply not so subtly that Robert was unskilled and unprepared for taking on Las Flores Canyon, and that Robert is simply the latest example of something Noel regrets; the devolution of well-policed, disciplined group rides. If that isn't his point, his whole post makes no sense. Since when is he or anybody the arbiter of whether someone is "skilled" enough to take on a group ride like the one last Saturday or descend Las Flores Canyon?

Now, having been called out for his post, Noel is shifting the discussion to the safety of organized/group/shop rides, which is a fine topic to discuss. I just think his original post is in incredibly poor taste.

[Lifelover]

I can't agree with Noel or people defending what he wrote. ....... I just think his original post is in incredibly poor taste.


+1 and because of where it is posted it reflects directly on Sacha White. ATMO


If is true that any publicity is good publicity it may be a boom. I suspect the SV blog has gotten more hits today than the last 30 days combined.

[firerescuefin]

Not looking to pick a fight, nor discount the tradgedy of someone's death, but I don't understand what was in poor taste based on the quote that AngryS posted in the OP. Can you please expand. Seems like a very grounded, measured, accurate commentary.

[christian]

Can you please expand. Seems like a very grounded, measured, accurate commentary.

You think this is grounded, measured, accurate commentary? I'd say it's tasteless, baseless and likely inaccurate (Noel wasn't there and has no idea about the skills of the gentleman who passed).

I saw a picture of the guy… he looks like he was a lovely fellow. His bars were too high, too many spacers. I’m willing to bet his stem was too short. How you sit on a bike matters. How your bike fits matters. How much weight you have and where your center of gravity is going down a hill matters. It’s life and death.

[Uncle Jam's Army]

Not looking to pick a fight, nor discount the tradgedy of someone's death, but I don't understand what was in poor taste based on the quote that AngryS posted in the OP. Can you please expand. Seems like a very grounded, measured, accurate commentary.

The whole implication that Robert was in over his head on this ride and that the ride was unsafe because it included unskilled riders like him. Then, obviously topping it off with his stem and spacers comment. Had this been a local Masters legend who simply had bad luck, do you think Noel would have written what he did?

[beeatnik]

I was there. And I'm a gentleman, IMO. And my stem and spacers were off because I brought out my little too large Ti bike. And as beautiful as my Ti bike is, I'll never take it up there again because I'd rather be running a slammed 120mm stem on my proper fitting race bike. In other words, I went out on the wrong bike because I wasn't expecting a crazy descent.

[benb]

If that isn't his point, his whole post makes no sense. Since when is he or anybody the arbiter of whether someone is "skilled" enough to take on a group ride like the one last Saturday or descend Las Flores Canyon?

Now, having been called out for his post, Noel is shifting the discussion to the safety of organized/group/shop rides, which is a fine topic to discuss. I just think his original post is in incredibly poor taste.

He wants to be the arbiter because at some level he's probably mentally scarred from seeing an accident or two and not having spoken up ahead of time...

Some people speak up when ???? happens, some people keep quiet and change their own behavior (disappear). Maybe he's an asshole but at least he's trying. I'm too chicken 99% of the time as I hate pissing people off even if it's for their own good.

On two occasions I've had someone following me on motorcycles crash. It's way more serious in that environment. No injuries, but I pretty much will not ever ride motorcycles with anyone I don't know really really well anymore. Too hard to educate anyone or try to get anyone to slow down if they want to go over their head. It's easier for me to just drop out. But it bugged the hell out of me when it happened, both times! (It's pretty much taken me out of motorcycling)

I crashed my motorcycle at the track.. the instructor following me was beside himself because I had hit dirt on the track and he was furious because he knew about the dirt and hadn't gotten it cleaned up. At least in the moment he was way more messed up about the whole thing then I was, as I was just psyched to be uninjured. And I admit being over my head in that corner on that lap, regardless of the dirt, it was my fault, not his. But he was still really upset about what happened.

I have also been hit twice by other bicyclists who were drafting me and half-wheeled me.. once in a race, once just riding. Both time they crashed and I did not. But I felt really really guilty about it.. so I am at least pretty vocal about that and will yell at people if they half wheel me.

When someone crashes the other people with them are hurt (mentally) too and some of them want to try to do something to stop the scenario from happening again. Maybe he has had this experience. I am sure there are lots of other people who can mirror my experiences here.

If I was leading a ride and someone following me died I don't know.. I might be done with bicycles.

[firerescuefin]

You think this is grounded, measured, accurate commentary? I'd say it's tasteless, baseless and likely inaccurate (Noel wasn't there and has no idea about the skills of the gentleman who passed).

Either we're reading 2 different articles or our perspectives are completely different. Perhaps having responded to countless fatalities to include many cyclists has shaped my paradigm....he seems to be talking to all levels including himself. Colorado is a destination for many and we have some long fast descents. I have seen thousands that could learn from his advice, and I have been guilty of attacking a descent that I was not familiar with...almost having it bite me in the @ss. Writing a feel good article doesn't necessarily get people's attention. I just don't find it offensive.

[1centaur]

While I appreciate the irony of criticizing an imperfect blog post about an imperfect bike set-up leading potentially to an imperfect ride (feels like that picture of ever bigger fish eating each other), I think we can agree that:

1) Sending other than highly prepared riders down dangerous descents is a bad idea that ride organizers should avoid.

2) Mixing a long-held feeling about bike set-up and riders vs. cyclists with #1 is not a wise way to maximize the effectiveness of a warning about #1.

BTW, just below the post that e-Richie copied in, swoop notes that the female crasher was his friend and highly experienced. I presume her stem and spacers were "correct." I also expect that there were many spacer guys who did not crash. And of course we don't know if the rider who died did so because of handling issues related to spacers, we just know that swoop's first thought when seeing the bike pic was to make that connection. That is who he is, but he would have been better served to stick with what he knows and filter out the generality because it detracted from his valid points.

[krhea]

As an organizer of pretty good sized "impromptu" rides as well as the President/Director of Portland Velo Cycling Club, Portland OR I can say we/I go over every route before we roll out.

Our Saturday club rides can have as many as 150 or more riders during the summer months. Even in last Saturday continuous rain we had 50 or 60riders. We take the time to break everyone up into groups of no more than 15 based on the average speed a rider can maintain/average on flat to slightly rolling terrain. We break our groups up as follows, 14-16mph, 16-18mph, 18-20, 21s and then "open"/hammer 'n nails. yes, folks do "self-seed" which requires honestly accessing your skill set/fitness level.
We have riders of every stripe on our rides from solid cat1 guys to "tourists" rolling along happily at 15mph and "stopping to smell the flowers".

Before every single ride we've ever done either myself or another person goes over the entire route including climbs, descents, road conditions in various places, any bad RR track crossings, blind corners etc etc. We do this before every ride. I also do that on my "impromptu" rides.
Yes, it take a few extra minutes but the peace of mind it offers is worth it. Also, each of our ride groups roll out with a club "ride leader". His job is to monitor the group speed making sure to keep it within the designated parameters, to warn of upcoming route "challenges" ie, steep climbs, narrow roads, dicey descents and lastly, to make sure we "share the road" with vehicles. Even after I've spoken to the entire mass of riders, when the group breaks into smaller groups each ride leader again goes over whatever he feels are the "challenges" on the route so every rider has now heard a route description two times before roll out.
We encourage our members to move up groups as they feel confident in their skills and fitness, however, on more challenging routes I'll specifically request that riders do not move up a group and sometimes I'll suggest certain riders should drop down a group.
In our club and on my rides there is nothing more important then rider safety, nothing.

I felt Swoops rant was a bit uppity but he also made a few good points and since the original post his tone has changed. It's just unfortunate that he allowed himself to "drift a bit" in his original.

I'm a long long time rider/racer. Rode my first century in 1974 and have been in the saddle ever since. I feel I'm a good rider, excellent bike handler and knowledgeable about the sport. I understand the risks each time I saddle up. In the past 3 years I've been on two rides where one of my friends were killed in my group. One by a crazed driver in a hurry with a suspended license and once when a stick popped off the pavement and lodged into the front wheel between the fork at 24mph and my good friend was sent flying into the pavement as his very expensive carbon frame shattered into pieces and he landed on his face/forehead and was killed.
Both of these were good riders with skills and neither accident had anything to do the spacers under their respective stems, nor were they going downhill.

5 weeks ago my wife and I had a horrendous crash on a 40mph downhill on our tandem. Front tire blowout which put us on the rim. I/we rode it out for almost 100yds before having the tube come out and wrap around the fork and hub at which time we were sent flying. We've ridden and raced tandems for years and years without one incident of any kind. Again, the spacers under my stem had nothing to do with it. When you're on the front rim going downhill at 40mph on a tandem your back brake does little to nothing in terms of stopping you and things can get ugly quick.

What concerns me most when unfortunate things like this happen are the "armchair uber knowledgeable crystal ball cyclists" creep out and immediately know the exact "how and why" it happened even though they weren't there. Accidents like this happen in the blink of an eye and even if you're right there sometimes you really don't know what happened and how it occured. I was 2 bikes in front of my friend when the stick kicked up and lodged in his wheel and ya know what...it took us forever before we realized what had happened. Even the guy in front of him that hit the stick starting the chain of events didn't realize what had happened it was so quick and immediate.

I feel for this guys family, his ride buddies and all involved in the event that day. I've been their shoes 3 times and it's a horrible place to be. My thoughts are with them.
Just remember, you're never to experienced to slow down, to ride safe, to listen to advice about the route you are riding or to even admit you're uncomfortable with a downhill or narrow road or whatever the case may be.

KRhea

[Climb01742]

swoop's post embodies his contradictions, his strengths and his biases, just like most of our posts do. as popeye said, i yam what i yam. ;)

[tannhauser]

Now, I dont think the same numbers apply to most 50 year old riders with 2 years experience.

I'm not into blame, but this about sums it up.

[blasdelf]

You can get fast on a road bike, but I don't think you can get "good" on one. Which I think is your point. But most of the people I ride with are pretty savvy about single-track vehicle dynamics; I don't think there's a single one who couldn't describe why countersteering works or explain the circle of friction. And all of them are, naturally, terrified of sidehacks.

As someone who owns a BMX sidehack I absolutely agree! Nothing will show you just how pants-sh*ttingly inept you really are at bike handling like a third wheel.

Really, if you're lucky you only veer off into a ditch alone and nothing lands on top of you. Just the mental effort you have to put into avoiding countersteering is exhausting.

Both pilot and monkey need to be able to lean way out with three wheels firmly on the ground to be able to make turns without high-siding. If you're solo you need to be able to drop a foot out on the sidecar to be able to turn that direction or even go in a straight line downhill. You wear out your hips and core muscles quickly just from positioning yourself.

The speed/terrain limit for simply ambling about on a sidehack is terrifyingly low, even in perfect conditions it takes very little before you're pushing it to the limits of getting rad.

[Villgaxx]

No, he was at it over across the hall earlier this week.

i did say 'in public'. i don't consider that mutual-admiration, um...clubouse the world in general.

[Fixed]

swoop is a great poster i miss his post ,i learned a lot from him he is very wise .imho


the bottom line is
it only takes an instant
for the lights to go out
sometimes they come back on
sometime they don't

he was doing
what he loved
god bless
cheers

[rphetteplace]

I'll bet the Speedbloggen will now be the 3rd place Noel has worn out his welcome.

Other than that I'm sorry for the loss for Robert's family and friends.

Ryan

[Lifelover]

swoop is a great poster i miss his post ,i learned a lot from him he is very wise .imho



As for posts here… i’m moving on and not approving any more comments.

Back to normally scheduled programing.

Thanks for reading!

Comment by Noel — November 10, 2011 @ 5:49 pm




Swoop is a martyr wannabe that has decided to limit his posting to blogs where he has total control of the responses and comments.

[BillG]

As an organizer of pretty good sized "impromptu" rides ... the case may be.

KRhea

Thank you for this really thoughtful post and very sorry about your friends.

[Fixed]

i remember him (swoop)saying cat 3's were better
on the west coast than the east coast once
i did not agree with him then or on this terrible tragedy ,i do not agree with his callousness , i found his views on bikes interesting and diverse opinions makes the forum strong imho
cheers

[christian]

As someone who owns a BMX sidehack I absolutely agree! Nothing will show you just how pants-sh*ttingly inept you really are at bike handling like a third wheel.

My favorite things about sidehacks:

1) You're on the edge, dealing with a sketchy unbalanced two-track vehicle, when suddenly, whee, you're flying the car and back to riding a motorcycle - countersteer or die! Until it touches down again and you're left with the world's worst two-track vehicle again. Like 9 times in a corner if you don't know what you're doing. If you're lucky you avoid flipping the rig and being squished.

2) When you're going around a right-hander and think you've come in too hot, what you have to do now is accelerate and try to get some slip angle (while not flying the goddamn car), because if you brake, the damn car will want to go straight and swing you out toward opposing traffic.

Pretty much, it's a vehicle whose sole intent seems to be to kill the operator.

The speed at which my fear of death exceeds the thrill of speed on a sidehack is about 15mph.

I -really- -really- want to ride one of those George Longstaff racing tricycles!

[palincss]

i did say 'in public'. i don't consider that mutual-admiration, um...clubouse the world in general.

what could possibly be more public than an internet forum indexed by google?

[beeatnik]

.

[mjb266]

This is fairly false reasoning. The pros you are finding videos of have a much different set of priorities when deciding how fast to go then a recreational rider should have. It is a lot easier to justify letting it all hang out in the Tour De France then it is on the local group ride.

Besides that if you know what to look for, it is clear there is a wide variation in bike handling skills in the Pro peloton. With that wide of a variation they can't all be amazing. They just got there because not all roles in a race require flawless bike handling skills. Occasionally having those skills is going to save your day and/or help you get the big win but they can still get along fairly nicely because at the end of the day even if you're a pro you're spending most of the day riding straight.

I don't think it's false reasoning at all. We all make decisions about how fast we can take a turn. Those decisions are the product of experience. It doesn't matter how much experience someone has...we all make mistakes.

I agree that a new rider doesn't have as much experience to base their decisions on, but that same rider is no doubt moving slower than a pro. Everyone is assuming that this guy was charging down the mountain balls to the wall. I tend to think it's plausible he was just riding down and that one turn got away from him. Was he sketchy the whole way down? Did he blow the five previous turns? If that were the case and he was already bloodied from previous crashes then perhaps his judgement was horrible. I'm inclined to think that one turn was more than he bargained for (just like what happens to the pros in those videos) and he didn't make it through.

Chronic poor judgement is very different than a simple mistake. Neither leave consequences that are easy to deal with but the first is easier to assimilate into our consciousness if we are to continue doing what we love (riding). The second hits a little close to home. Much easier to believe that rotating pacelines or counter steering practice will keep us alive.

[beeatnik]

Apparently, his brother told him to be careful on a previous turn.

http://pvcycling.wordpress.com/

[Villgaxx]

what could possibly be more public than an internet forum indexed by google?

the monkey cages at the zoo are in public, but i don't consider them polite society either. what the monkey's do there is not up to the norms of civilization. and the reptile house is not a place to find informed or intelligent analysis of anything worth knowing. google does not define my world...

[Tom Byrnes]

I live in Los Angeles. I know Las Flores Canyon Road and the various roads leading up into the Santa Monica Mountains from the Pacific Coast Highway in the Malibu area. I ride there often.

I also know Steven Carre and Allison Letson, the two great and caring people who own and operate Bike Effect, the Serotta dealer in Santa Monica where last Saturday's ride originated.

Roberto Hyndman's tragic death has affected the Los Angeles cycling community. It really drives home the idea that "But for the Grace of God, go I". As many have stated, accidents happen

There is an excellent article about Roberto's tragic and unfortunate death by Los Angeles-based cyclist and journalist Patrick Brady, referred to in the link referenced in beeatnik's last post.
http://redkiteprayer.com/index.php?s=hyndman

Anyone interested in more information about Mr. Hyndman's tragic accident, cycling in the Santa Monica Mountains and an interesting discussion of balancing the thrills of cycling vs. its risks and danger will enjoy Patrick Brady's well-written and well-reasoned article.

Be safe out there.

[blasdelf]

Pretty much, it's a vehicle whose sole intent seems to be to kill the operator.
Reminds me that my sidehack is currently nonfunctional — last time I rode it I rolled all 65 pounds of it, and bent the NDS crankarm enough to hit the chainstay. They're steel square taper cranks! Pretty sure I bent the BB spindle too.

[redir]

It's almost like bike racers joking that there are so many crashes in the cat 5 field that they are called the crash 5's. Well from my experience there are just as many in the pro/1/2 fields and often times they are a lot worse. I saw several pro/1/2 racers crash on a descent last year right in front of me and it was the most frightening thing I had ever seen. They literally road/slid right off the side of a mountain into the trees and rocks. It was amazing no one was killed.

My point being is that any one new and inexperienced or highly skilled can fall victim to a statistically bad situation.

[Fixed]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h_8m5-sR6I4
everyone remembers this
cheers

[weiwentg]

Apparently, his brother told him to be careful on a previous turn.

http://pvcycling.wordpress.com/

I'd suggest everyone read that post. I'm in the top few of my group on the climbs, but I started cycling in Michigan, where there aren't very many significant descents. I know I wasn't that good a descender when I was racing, and after a major accident, I'm now quite nervous when I don't know the descent. So, the poster's words of caution were very instructive. I know I'll make sure not to overestimate any descents when I'm on the West Coast.

[BillG]

I've gone down a lot of horrible dirt descents in the East, heated up my rims enough to pull over to save my brake pads, but the most terrifying descents I've gone down were in Palo Alto, rapid switchbacks into fences with cars zipping up and down. I imagine Las Flores Canyon Road is a lot worse.

[DreaminJohn]

.....or on this terrible tragedy ,i do not agree with his callousness , i found his views on bikes interesting and diverse opinions makes the forum strong imho
cheers


I completely agree with the esteemed Mr. Fixed.

When we get personal in our disagreement it diminishes the message. Just atmo, yes ATMO.

[AngryScientist]

Apparently, his brother told him to be careful on a previous turn.

http://pvcycling.wordpress.com/

this is a good reality check.

[fiamme red]

I've gone down a lot of horrible dirt descents in the East, heated up my rims enough to pull over to save my brake pads, but the most terrifying descents I've gone down were in Palo Alto, rapid switchbacks into fences with cars zipping up and down. I imagine Las Flores Canyon Road is a lot worse.Someone who lived in the midwest wrote a report on a bicycle newsgroup about visiting Jobst Brandt (a very skilled descender) and riding with him around Palo Alto. He was faster than Jobst on the climbs, but on the descents, there was no way he could stay with him.

A cyclist who competes in road races as a professional or high-level amateur must learn to descend well on unfamiliar roads, and must be willing to accept a measure of risk. The other 99% of us, however, don't have career prospects at stake, but need to decide for ourselves how much risk we're willing to tolerate for the sake of going down hills fast. Personally, I enjoy the sensation of executing a descent well, but since I don't have a natural knack for descending, I'll only "push" a descent that I know completely and am "current" on, and then only to the extent I have visibility. I'll also leave a safety factor to account for the fact that I'm not the only person using the road. I'd rather finish the descent thinking "I could have gone faster," than to have people saying about me "he went too fast."

[tannhauser]

I've gone down a lot of horrible dirt descents in the East, heated up my rims enough to pull over to save my brake pads, but the most terrifying descents I've gone down were in Palo Alto, rapid switchbacks into fences with cars zipping up and down. I imagine Las Flores Canyon Road is a lot worse.

If you grow up in the Bay Area riding these descents are no big deal, but they always have my full attention.

A guy coming from the flats? I wouldn't take him down Tunitas Creek.

[tannhauser]

Apparently, his brother told him to be careful on a previous turn.

http://pvcycling.wordpress.com/

Bump.

[beeatnik]

And I believe there were at least 2 others on the ride, I'll add one last piece of information. But before doing that, regardless of where I stand on the speedbloggen post or others I've read online, I'd just like to make it known that while I understand the desire for a level of tact, and my condolences go out to Roberto's family.

Roberto RIP

[avalonracing]

Apparently, his brother told him to be careful on a previous turn.

http://pvcycling.wordpress.com/

This is a hell of a blog post.

[JD Smith]

Couldn't agree more. Who cares that he has too many spacers? He made a mistake and suffered mortal consequences - that is the concern, not that it appears that he was a 'Fred' (I am one of those apparently) and yes, I would have opted not to include this kind of diatribe in my brand if I were Sacha.

I ride a Speedvagen, and it is cool, but frame characteristics are the last things that need to be discussed in light of the death of this person.

My condolences...

The blog entry wasn't a letter of condolence to the family, it was a cautionary address to potential fondo participants. He brings up factors including the proper self-evaluation, proper equipment setup, and responsible ride organization. Is it still too soon to offer expert info helping someone make a safe, informed choice?