Anyone see Tyler on TV?... [Archive]

tch

07-27-2005, 08:40 AM

Last night (Tuesday) on HBO on Bryant Gumbel's show (Real Sports)? Anyway, some really interesting info from Frank Deford. Tyler's got an MIT professor who says that 50 - 70% of the population have trace amounts of "different", chimeric, blood in their system, either from their mothers or from vanishing twins. He says that "20 years of science" supports this claim, and that one reason it is not more known is because prior to performance testing, no one was ever really looking for, or interested in, the issue of trace amounts of foreign blood protein in people's bodies. One of the 4 WADA doctors says that this guy's point is entirely plausible.

Other stuff:
~ Tyler had about 2% concentration of foreign blood. Fourth WADA doctor says that sanction limit should be set at about 15%. Says that performance enhancement doesn't occur until about 20-30% concentration.
~ D*ck Pound comes off as one of the most sanctimonious, close-minded, corporate-think jerks imaginable. What a blowhard. I couldn't stand him on TV -- I can only imagine what a pompous, self-righteous a$$hole he is in person.
~ If Tyler is lying, he has completely convinced himself. I've never seen a personal interview that was more convincing. When you watch/hear him, he simply comes across as honest and believable. Even the most cynical would have to consider his innocence if they truly listened.

davids

07-27-2005, 08:53 AM

Richard

07-27-2005, 08:54 AM

I didn't see it, but FWIW, if 50% - 70% have trace amounts that the test would detect as sanctionable, why have only two of the 200 +/- in the peloton shown as positive? There are, after all, some reputable (?) scientists, or at least with apparently reputable credentials, that dispute much accepted science -- global warming, evolution, environmental cleanup needs, etc.

Samster

07-27-2005, 09:12 AM

weiwentg

07-27-2005, 10:57 AM

That's exaclty it, isn't it... Lying or not, the circumstances are problematic and a positive outcome seems unlikely unless someone believably confesses to having set the guy up. Personally, I don't know how to process all the information around the case.

--sam

be that as it may, the methods used to convict those two people were based on very shoddy science. I was very surprised that two of the US arbitrators ruled against Tyler; the US is not a country known for its kangaroo courts, at least not when dealing with its own citizens. someone trying to use this kind of methodology in their doctoral dissertation would get laughed out of the room. regardless of whether Tyler and/or Perez are in fact guilty of blood doping, they should not be convicted based upon this evidence. I think the UCI shot itself in the foot by allowing this.

as for Tyler, though, he's behaving like someone who's completely innocent. he could be the most monstrous liar ever, though.

Fixed

07-27-2005, 01:14 PM

The Jr.'s on my team all looked up to him. I didn't know what to tell them.They are into Vino now.How do you tell kids about this sort of thing? I help some inner city kids with their workouts great kids and fast too.Cheers

spiderlake

07-27-2005, 01:18 PM

Not sure if this was ever posted but there is a fascinating article (imho) about doping from the November 2003 issue of Outside magazine. Written by Stuart Stevens and available for viewing at:

http://outside.away.com/outside/bodywork/200311/200311_drug_test_1.html

I really don't have an opinion about doping but thought the article was interesting. YMMV.

shinomaster

07-27-2005, 01:39 PM

I missed him in the tour this year!

tch

07-27-2005, 01:43 PM

...If Tyler's claim is true, shouldn't his blood tests consistently reveal the same results regarding the "foriegn" blood? I mean, shouldn't we be able to do the same test today, right now, and get the same result? And if that's the case, why doesn't Tyler just do it?
Apparently, Tyler has had tests that do not show the presence of foreign blood, but the Prof. from MIT said that's not surprising. Tyler had such a low level of foreign protein that, given the ebb and flow of blood chemistry (think hormone amounts, etc), the Prof thinks it's altogether likely that some tests would catch it and some would not [AND, he did criticize the test as being unproven in terms of its reliability]

I didn't see it, but FWIW, if 50% - 70% have trace amounts that the test would detect as sanctionable, why have only two of the 200 +/- in the peloton shown as positive? There are, after all, some reputable (?) scientists, or at least with apparently reputable credentials, that dispute much accepted science -- global warming, evolution, environmental cleanup needs, etc.
True as far as the controversy part. As for the first point, Prof said that the test has never been widely applied and is unreliable, so exaggerates the "findings". I inferred from what he said that not everyone in peleton undergoes this test all the time, nor is it widely used in general population.

I have to admit, intellect tells me to be skeptical, but I'll repeat my point that if Tyler is lying, he is the most convincing liar I've EVER seen.

JohnS

07-27-2005, 01:49 PM

maybe Tyler isn't lying. Maybe he just doesn't know. With all the "supplements" and "saline rehydration IV's" that these guys get, maybe the team doctor wasn't forthright with him. Maybe he's so convincing because he doesn't think he's had anything illegal, but he has. Just a thought...

chrisroph

07-27-2005, 02:46 PM

I've said it here before---the test is unproven, the process sucked, arbitration is a kangaroo court, and whether tyler transfused or not, he was railroaded by the uci and wada. Pound don't care whether the tests are any good. He "knows" all cyclists dope. He simply want to find people positive and have the inevitable appeals rejected to justify his own salary and wada's existence.

Fixed

07-27-2005, 03:24 PM

DarkStar

07-27-2005, 03:48 PM

~ D*ck Pound comes off as one of the most sanctimonious, close-minded, corporate-think jerks imaginable. What a blowhard. I couldn't stand him on TV -- I can only imagine what a pompous, self-righteous a$$hole he is in person.

He's everything you'd envision!

jerk

07-27-2005, 04:01 PM

that program was a joke. it made fox's "alien autopsy" look like frontline. it insulted the intelligence of any viewer whether or not they believe tyler.
jerk

Ray

07-27-2005, 04:05 PM

~ If Tyler is lying, he has completely convinced himself. I've never seen a personal interview that was more convincing. When you watch/hear him, he simply comes across as honest and believable. Even the most cynical would have to consider his innocence if they truly listened.
I saw it too. I also have NO idea whether he's innocent or guilty. Can't even begin to parse the science. It's just confusing enough to be able to take from it whatever you want to in order to reinforce whatever preconceptions you want to continue believing. I didn't have any so I'm still 100% undecided.

But coming from a profession where I never had to lie, but frequently had to spin like a mutha, I can attest to how easy it is to start believing your own bull*****. I frequently had to put the best light on a tough situation in order to sell an idea or even to help build consensus in a group that wasn't naturally inclined that way. I'm lucky I never had to outright lie - I'd like to think I would not have done it. But I know when you really invest yourself in selling a proposition, you come to believe it whole hog. There may be a little voice in the back of your head that continues to have doubts, but you can put it completely aside and make your pitch 100%. I can imagine it wouldn't be that hard to step over the line and believe a set of outright lies if you thought you were justified in telling them. Like if you didn't think you'd done anything wrong (everyone does it and I'm just trying to level the playing field, etc). And even if you continue to have that little voice in the back of your mind, you could probably put it aside completely and make a VERY convincing case for, in this case, your innocence.

Not saying this is what's happening, but it seems like a real possibility to me.

-Ray

shaq-d

07-27-2005, 04:05 PM

deleted; others have made my point :p

sd

my2cents

07-27-2005, 04:06 PM

that program was a joke. it made fox's "alien autopsy" look like frontline. it insulted the intelligence of any viewer whether or not they believe tyler.
jerk

... expand on this? how so? tyler's comments? the explanations of the science (or lack thereof) behind the tests? etc.

shaq-d

07-27-2005, 04:08 PM

JohnS

07-27-2005, 04:19 PM

heh. i like this one. in other words, he's an idiot :)

sd
Well, not in so many words... :D

andy mac

07-27-2005, 04:52 PM

2 guys on this charge from one team and nobody else...

and another team mate out on another doping charge...

3 in one year from the one team...

Fixed

07-27-2005, 06:11 PM

You guys would know this, some of you guys might even know Tyler. Am I wrong to think that Tyler is one of the smartest riders? Cheers

BumbleBeeDave

07-27-2005, 09:26 PM

. . . of whether he really did it or not, does anyone know the status of his appeal to the CAS? Last I heard was that they were supposed to consider his appeal in June. Has that changed?

BBDave

e-RICHIE

07-27-2005, 09:43 PM

You guys would know this, some of you guys might even know Tyler. Am I wrong to think that Tyler is one of the smartest riders? Cheers

i know tyler and met him in 93 when
he raced altoona and killington on our
team. he is extremely bright, and comp-
ared to your average domestic pro cyclist,
he's quite well educated.
it is too bad he is serving time this late
in his career. i hope he rebounds.
e-RICHIE��

jerk

07-27-2005, 09:48 PM

i know tyler and met him in 93 when
he raced altoona and killington on our
team. he is extremely bright, and comp-
ared to your average domestic pro cyclist,
he's quite well educated.
it is too bad he is serving time this late
in his career. i hope he rebounds.
e-RICHIE��

the jerk hopes so too. but popped is popped and you play with the bull sometimes you get the horns and other ancient sayings and stuff.

the jerk doesn't believe him....but hopes he comes back.

jerk

Johny

07-27-2005, 09:51 PM

Why did Tyler get a MIT professor instead of Lance to support him? Isn't
Lance's physiology more convincing than the vanishing twin theory?

e-RICHIE

07-27-2005, 09:55 PM

the jerk hopes so too. but popped is popped and you play with the bull sometimes you get the horns and other ancient sayings and stuff.

that is so pamplona-esque.
e-RICHIE��

slowgoing

07-28-2005, 12:16 AM

If tries to race again, I will be very curious to hear his results on the same test. If he tests positive, he has to fight the system all over again (or retire), but at least his consistent results will support his position that this is a natural result for him, so the test must be flawed. If he passes, he can race, but people will say that�s evidence he was doping when he tested positive before, so his credibility may suffer. I hope he can avoid both situations by winning the appeal and having the testing procedure thrown out, although I�m not so sure the odds are in his favor.

BBB

07-28-2005, 03:04 AM

To answer BBDave, I understood the appeal was meant to be heard in July sometime, but so far zip.

The question of Hamilton riding again is really a moot question (no disrespect) as he will only race again if he is successful. If he is successful before CAS, the test will be scrapped, so we will never really know the answer.

slowgoing

07-28-2005, 09:47 AM

he can try to race again when his suspension is over.

lnomalley

07-28-2005, 02:18 PM

the jerk doesn't believe him....but hopes he comes back.

jerk[/QUOTE]

for the record, i don't believe him either and i'm willing to bet if you looked hard enough, that you could find people that have witnessed him doing the things he's accused of....(yes this is speculation and personal opinion on my part).
i hope he comes back too.... i'm a fan.

you know what kills me too, clinger is now racing for a local LA shop team.... and having to do manual labor to make ends meet. how you go from leading out cipo to riding for helens/rpm (home of many talented riders non the less)... what a sport, he's a good guy (and he trains his A** off)and has world class talent. don't let your babies grow up to be bike racers. hopefully some euro things open up for him next year...

ok, end rant.

e-RICHIE

07-28-2005, 02:35 PM

he's "chasing the $12,000 dream" on
a local team now???????????????!!!!!

what happened to the webcor gig?

e-RICHIE��

Big Dan

07-28-2005, 02:57 PM

you know what kills me too, clinger is now racing for a local LA shop team.... and having to do manual labor to make ends meet. how you go from leading out cipo to riding for helens/rpm (home of many talented riders non the less)... what a sport, he's a good guy (and he trains his A** off)and has world class talent. don't let your babies grow up to be bike racers. hopefully some euro things open up for him next year...

ok, end rant.[/QUOTE]

what's wrong with manual labor????

:confused: :confused:

lnomalley

07-28-2005, 02:59 PM

this is second hand... i don't know him.... but the rumor is something along the lines of..... 'they didnt like the people i was hanging out with'.

now, i feel like a jerk talking about stuff i haven't heard first handedly from him, nor would i have the balls to ask him if i saw him, so i'll leave it at that....
again, the times i've encountered him i've found him to be a really nice guy and a classy rider.

(rhetorical) who knows what's up???? he's certainly amazing to see on a bike and someone i want to see do well.

lnomalley

07-28-2005, 03:04 PM

what's wrong with manual labor????

:confused: :confused:[/QUOTE]

dan, nothing is wrong with manual labor.... although i think it might be a little hard on a world class athlete that is capable of riding d-1 in europe. its kind of like watching the pope sing on american idol. its cool, but that's the friggin pope, he can booka better gig for himself.

ok, i have to go clean my tiolet and mow the lawn, and then shovel some dirt. p.c-ism sucks.

e-RICHIE

07-28-2005, 03:08 PM

(he was heard asking...)
and what happened to webcor?

my2cents

07-28-2005, 03:11 PM

for the record, i don't believe him either and i'm willing to bet if you looked hard enough, that you could find people that have witnessed him doing the things he's accused of....(yes this is speculation and personal opinion on my part).
[/QUOTE]

i'll take that bet! with all the publicity and all the newspapers and tv shows out looking for dirt, if there was someone that had something on him, they would have come forward by now. I know first hand that they are searching HARD for the dirt - my next door neighbor is sports editor for a bunch of local papers including tyler's home town in MA and this guy is constantly asking me about contacts who might know tyler, names of former teammates, and he in turns has been contacted by every major media company (print and tv) in an attempt to "nail this guy"! they want to get him red-handed so badly it's sick simply because he so "sincerely, loudly and completely proclaims his innocence". I believe the test is flawed, that he didn't dope (not because I'm a fan per se, but because I see no evidence that stands up to reasonable scientific scrutiny), and that no 'witnesses' have come forward because there has been no wrong-doing to witness.

so, what's the bet?

lnomalley

07-28-2005, 03:15 PM

(he was heard asking...)
and what happened to webcor?

he was 'fired'.. the line was something like, 'they didn't like who i was hanging out with'. like i said its all second hand to me...

i don't know him personally... i'm just a local guy that hears the odd thing or two...and is stupid enough to put it here.

Big Dan

07-28-2005, 03:18 PM

what's wrong with manual labor????

:confused: :confused:

dan, nothing is wrong with manual labor.... although i think it might be a little hard on a world class athlete that is capable of riding d-1 in europe. its kind of like watching the pope sing on american idol. its cool, but that's the friggin pope, he can booka better gig for himself.

ok, i have to go clean my tiolet and mow the lawn, and then shovel some dirt. p.c-ism sucks.[/QUOTE]

He has done more on a bike than most of us are going to do.....
btw..don't hurt yourself or anyone else with that shovel...... :D

lnomalley

07-28-2005, 03:28 PM

so, what's the bet?[/QUOTE]

i'll bet you the jerk's identity!

the thing is, whatever the verdict, we'll never know the truth.

Johny

07-28-2005, 03:46 PM

...that no 'witnesses' have come forward because there has been no wrong-doing to witness.

Maybe his wife and Lance would come forward.

P.S. No. Wait. They are on the same boat...

toaster

07-28-2005, 04:18 PM

The problem I have with **** Pound, not knowing him personally, is that he is not unbiased. He was a former athlete himself and I don't think his ego is over that. He suspects far too many modern era athletes as cheaters to be believeable as an authority. A true authority would have a perfect test and would let the science speak for itself, not go around claiming certain individuals are cheaters and sounding so sure of it just because the athlete said this or did that.

vaxn8r

07-28-2005, 04:34 PM

... A true authority would have a perfect test and would let the science speak for itself, ...
Do you really believe that?

Folks, there is no perfect test. False positives in every test. False negatives too. You do your best to weed out the really bad tests.

I wouldn't put too much stock into things like "a certain MIT professor said this or that." Before I believed anything one said about the "test" I'd like to see some hard numbers backing his statement. Opinions are easy. Science is hard.

andy mac

07-28-2005, 04:40 PM

be interesting to see the ratio of:

cheaters who get away with it

vs

clean who get wrongly busted

all you tyler fans, why not talk about perez in the discussion too? do you believe him too? or not quite so much, cause he ain't american. where's your outrage for him?

what are the odds of 2 from the same team testing positive and nobody else?

i'd rather ricky pound looking after sport than the old regime or the baseball dudes etc.

think about if it was you or your kid competing - and your boss asks you to dump the latest horse juice between your toes, or you make the decision yourself to pay the bills... they you/die at an early age like flo jo and all the others...

have any forum members known of other cyclists doping? I have heard of club riders in australia being offered stuff.

apparently it is even a big problem for age groupers in tri's etc with tons of cash looking for an edge. and more sadly, high school students.

Frustration

07-28-2005, 07:13 PM

my2cebst: i'll take that bet! with all the publicity and all the newspapers and tv shows out looking for dirt, if there was someone that had something on him, they would have come forward by now.

People don't step up and accuse people like Tyler and corporations and sponsors of doping because they are not nuts enough to do so... You would look pretty silly saying "I saw him, I saw him" right about the time the lawyer for the athlete that was sueing you for 27 things said "Prove it".

See Emma O'Rieley (spelling?) as a nice example. Lance is suing her for what, a couple million bones? And I'm pretty sure she's having a tough time paying the legal bills much less being able to take the hit if / when she loses.

I hope Tyler is clean too, but the panel that reviewed it the first time did ask questions about not being able to produce the same results, as well as being presented with lots more info that armchair folks like us never had the chance to see.

My question goes back to before the positive when the UCI had contacted Tyler BEFORE the test that nailed him to inform him that they had seen some irregularities in his blood... Exactly how is it helping to clean up the sport when you warn the guys on the edge about pending tests???

Fixed

07-28-2005, 09:36 PM

You lawyers should know this, a lot of doctors or expert witnesses opinions can be bought for a dime. Their viewpoint can change depending on which side is paying. I have been a messenger for many years working for attorneys that represent both Personal Injury and Insurance Defense. Cheers.

spatz

07-28-2005, 10:43 PM

My question goes back to before the positive when the UCI had contacted Tyler BEFORE the test that nailed him to inform him that they had seen some irregularities in his blood... Exactly how is it helping to clean up the sport when you warn the guys on the edge about pending tests???

Perhaps because it isn't in their best interest to find athletes with positive test results. Cycling at that level is about money... putting a superstar out of action hurts everyone involved. Does it make major race organizers/sponsors happy to have athletes show up with "adnormalities" that could cause them to dns/dnf? If the athletes, teams and sponsors consider the status quo as being a level playing field and fair representation of their skills and abilities, what good does throwing suspicion and doubt into the pot from the publics perspective? ... the money comes from the public after all and you wouldn't want to threaten that. But, that's just my personal opinion... my unborn conjoined twin feels the other way so who really knows. :p

spatz