i tried to support LBS, i really did

[Climb01742]

yesterday i went looking for two saddles to replace one that had been trashed in a crash and one i wanted to try the new updated version. the two saddles were a selle italia SLR and a san marco regal(e). two very mainstream saddles, two saddles with long histories and enduring popularity. i could have easily hopped onto the competitive cyclist site and dropped the coin with brendan, but i thought why not support one of the local shops.

cut to the chase. first shop had neither. in fact the only san marco saddles they had were a few dusty old rolls and the only selle italia saddle they had was one flite. one.

luckily the second shop had the regal(e) but no SLR. in fact it had no selle italia saddles at all.

i know that no shop can carry everything (especially in november) but as i drove home (and the two shops were not at all close to one another so there was a fair amount of shlepping) i began to wonder how brink and mortar shops will survive. this isn't a rant, nor am i blaming or faulting anyone. it's just a cold hard fact. both of those saddles are in-stock at cc.com, without a millimeter of shlepping.

each shop said the same thing about the saddles they didn't carry, "we can order them for you." well, so can i. it's sad. i love going to and hanging out at bike shops, but aside from mechanical stuff i'm not clever enough to do (which is basically everything) and the now very infrequent new bike purchase, i'm having a hard time imagining what i'll buy at a local bike shop...or more accurately perhaps, what i_can_buy at a LBS.

just sad.

[itsflantastic]

you could have called first without a millimeter of schlepping. :D

When I worked at a bike shop, a whole lot of our money was made on kids bikes and comfort/cruisers. The high end stuff was rarely purchased on the day to day, so for them, having all model of high end saddle is pointless.


I applaud the effort though :)

[Vinci]

I have had the same experience locally. I'd gladly pay the premium to have something in my hand when I leave, but they never seem to have what I'm looking for. Even simple things like square-taper bottom brackets, cantilever brake hangers, or sweatbands (in Florida...). They always offer to order it, but that really defeats the purpose.

The one time I did go ahead and have them order something, it was a frameset. That was a few months ago, and they still haven't gotten me the parts that it was missing when it arrived. :(

[ultraman6970]

This happens to almost everybody man.

[Climb01742]

you could have called first without a millimeter of schlepping. :D

very true but...

ever call a bike shop with a question that required the person to walk over to some other part of the shop and try to find something? that is a long time on hold. but more than that, as i said, i like wondering around a shop every once in awhile and looking at stuff. :beer:

[brockd15]

I've had quite a few shops tell me they could order it for me but I have yet to take any of them up on it...maybe I should. Problem is, like you said, I can order it for me and most likely do it for less money. That makes it a tough world for the LBS.That said, I've also had so many shops that have treated me well by giving me small parts for free or super cheap (bearings, cable tips, barrel adjusters, spacers, etc.) that are a pain to order or are hard to find online, that I will try to return the favor by buying things there that I could get online, if they have it in stock.

[Smiley]

Forget it Climb, try finding stems :)

Shops don't and can't afford to carry stuff that won't turn over. Most mail order type shops like AE Bike as an example have a mail order presence but their web site is linked to Quality's so they really don't even stock parts but you order from them and Quality ships to them and then they ship to you.

AE Bike is a Michigan brick and mortar retailer with a nice web site

[gone]

I agree with (and have experienced) everything you said. The thing is though, "back in the day" pre-internet what you (or I) would have done is either bought one of the saddles they had in stock or let them order one for you.

The internet changed everything. No matter how much you (or I) want to support an LBS the fact is that in 20 minutes I can survey a dozen domestic and international suppliers, find one that has what I want in stock at the best price and offers free shipping.

No bike shop can compete with that, I don't care how good their service is or how much inventory they carry.

It's just a fact that bike shops have to adapt to if they're going to survive.

In my particular case, the nearest LBS of any sort is a 120 mile round trip. There's no way I'm going to make the drive ($15 in gas not to mention my time) so unless I need it now and they have it in stock it's the internet, every time.

But even when I lived in places where the "L" in LBS applied, unless I needed something immediately I usually bought on-line. I do all of my own work except for really heavy duty stuff (I needed to have a bottom bracket re-threaded once and went to an LBS for that) so I never was much of an LBS frequenter anyway.

[oldpotatoe]

yesterday i went looking for two saddles to replace one that had been trashed in a crash and one i wanted to try the new updated version. the two saddles were a selle italia SLR and a san marco regal(e). two very mainstream saddles, two saddles with long histories and enduring popularity. i could have easily hopped onto the competitive cyclist site and dropped the coin with brendan, but i thought why not support one of the local shops.

cut to the chase. first shop had neither. in fact the only san marco saddles they had were a few dusty old rolls and the only selle italia saddle they had was one flite. one.

luckily the second shop had the regal(e) but no SLR. in fact it had no selle italia saddles at all.

i know that no shop can carry everything (especially in november) but as i drove home (and the two shops were not at all close to one another so there was a fair amount of shlepping) i began to wonder how brink and mortar shops will survive. this isn't a rant, nor am i blaming or faulting anyone. it's just a cold hard fact. both of those saddles are in-stock at cc.com, without a millimeter of shlepping.

each shop said the same thing about the saddles they didn't carry, "we can order them for you." well, so can i. it's sad. i love going to and hanging out at bike shops, but aside from mechanical stuff i'm not clever enough to do (which is basically everything) and the now very infrequent new bike purchase, i'm having a hard time imagining what i'll buy at a local bike shop...or more accurately perhaps, what i_can_buy at a LBS.

just sad.

Not sad at all. Yep, you didn't find what YOU were looking for but if the bike shop is 'making it', then somebody comes in and finds what they ARE looking for.

A successful bike shop has to identify it's target market, and aggressively pursue that market. Bike shops that try to have everything for everybody most likely DON'T make it. I wouldn't have 2 of those 3 saddles either but I do have Fizik, SMP and Brooks and sell a lot of them. Those same people go into the shop down the street(there are 6 bikes shops w/i 20 blocks of me) and they don't have Brooks, a few Fizik...so it's really not sad at all.

Just because you couldn't find a couple of saddles really doesn't mean the well planned and executed shops are going under any day now.

BTW-I have demo Fizik and SMP addles as well. You can try that with MO, some do a comfort guarantee, most will not tho.

I guess the next 'discussion' will be about price(samo over in the classified section) and I will have to try to learn some what 'margin' is and how it applies to retail, fixed costs and how it is effected by volume or lack thereof(Circuit City model).

[DRietz]

I know, I know, it seems odd - but, I would've let them order it for me. This way, you get what you want and you still support a shop.

We order stuff for people all the time without such an issue, but then again, we also have a fleet of demo saddles in stock on the floor.

[wasfast]

What's the point of them ordering it for you? You can order it yourself, at home, and have it delivered (at whatever speed you're willing to pay for) right to your door. Unless only they have the option to get something you just can't, that reason doesn't fly these days.

A LBS has to have a reason to be there. Service, instant gratification to purchase, price, overall availability, knowledge,friendliness..... SOMETHING. The days of just being there aren't sustainable.

[rain dogs]

very true but...

ever call a bike shop with a question that required the person to walk over to some other part of the shop and try to find something? that is a long time on hold. but more than that, as i said, i like wondering around a shop every once in awhile and looking at stuff. :beer:

Now it sounds to me like the argument thread is unravelling.

1. because I went to two bicycle shops that didn't stock my items, LBS' are likely dead. <- counter, maybe you chose the wrong bike shops, or don't have them available... in which case, online is a good service for you.

2. calling/ordering takes too long! Compared to what? Waiting 7-14 days until your item ships from PBK or CC?

3. But I like wandering around a shop every once in a while Well, this was one of your wanders... an experience you enjoy. I bet had you ordered one of those saddles from the local distributor, they would have it next day or in 3-5. Faster than shipping.

Now, rather than just sh**ting on you... I think the main reason is price. Online you can quite often find things substantially lower cost than in store.

I say this is a distributor problem, import duties and middle-men. They should adapt.... otherwise they'll be putting their business out of business.

Service/repair will always survive.

[Bob Loblaw]

It's tough out there.

I'd also add to the points already made here that a lot of serious cyclists, i.e. the ones that buy the high end stuff, are the most self-sufficient and therefore more likely to buy online, making ti even harder for local shops to turn over high end saddles, stems, etc.

BL

[fourflys]

echo what oldpotatoe said...

one of the saddles you were looking for (the regal) sure isn't very popular around SoCal so I wouldn't expect to find it in shop... the SLR is a little more popular but it isn't a Fizik, Prologo, or SMP which seem to be what everyone rides down here... and the shop will sell what turns over as others have said...

I've ordered things from shops before I worked at one and never had an issue getting stuff... sure it might be a few bucks cheaper online, but...

ask yourself this... what would you do if your TV went out right now? would you have to go buy a new one or is there someone locally that can fix it? now put bike in place of TV and look down the road 10 years...

just a thought...

[Aaron O]

There are so many options now, and so many products, that it's unrealistic to expect the LBS to have your selection in stock - unless it's a basic item. I use my LBS for tubes, tires, and the like. I'll order from them when it's not a HUGE money difference. I give them my labor because they do it better than me.

[oldpotatoe]

Now it sounds to me like the argument thread is unravelling.

1. because I went to two bicycle shops that didn't stock my items, LBS' are likely dead. <- counter, maybe you chose the wrong bike shops, or don't have them available... in which case, online is a good service for you.

2. calling/ordering takes too long! Compared to what? Waiting 7-14 days until your item ships from PBK or CC?

3. But I like wandering around a shop every once in a while Well, this was one of your wanders... an experience you enjoy. I bet had you ordered one of those saddles from the local distributor, they would have it next day or in 3-5. Faster than shipping.

Now, rather than just sh**ting on you... I think the main reason is price. Online you can quite often find things substantially lower cost than in store.

I say this is a distributor problem, import duties and middle-men. They should adapt.... otherwise they'll be putting their business out of business.

Service/repair will always survive.

Well said. I like point 1.

The distribution model seems to be evolving, slowly, to manufacturer sales. 'Stuff' wherehoused by the manufacturer, sells to the bike shop. Reduces the 'levels of distribution by one, however, with most, that hasn't resulted in a reduction in wholesale price(Mavic, CK, Cateye, others). Mostly they just increase their margin, in this tough market.

I would love to see shimano and Campagnolo go direct to the bike shop. Big $ to do that tho.

[fourflys]

What's the point of them ordering it for you? You can order it yourself, at home, and have it delivered (at whatever speed you're willing to pay for) right to your door. Unless only they have the option to get something you just can't, that reason doesn't fly these days.


the reason is building a relationship with the shop... why does it matter how fast the shipping is? I doubt the guy is riding around without a saddle currently... I guess there is the argument that you wouldn't have to go back to the shop to pick it up, but really... who on here doesn't like to go BS at the LBS and poke around the floor?

[benb]

At least with respect to saddles it seems like some of the shops that are Trek and/or Specialized dealers are being pressured to stop carrying stuff like Selle Italia and instead push customers onto the Bontrager (yuck) and Specialized (not so bad) saddles...

I've definitely noticed that around here.. shops that years ago had carried lots of Selle Italia and similar saddle brands no longer really have any of them.

Saddles I get.. but some of this stuff makes no sense to complain about.. like complaining about not being able to find a nice square-taper BB in a shop.

Maybe Campy was still using square taper not so long ago, but lots of shops don't have any campy bikes on the shelf, and if you ignore Campy, the last time they would have been selling square taper BBs en masse was probably before some of the shop employees were born.

[dekindy]

I order things over the Internet through my LBS as long as the price differential is not significant. I do have to pay sales tax but that is not the LBS's fault and it is the law that Congress has not seen fit to make so that retailers do not have that disadvantage, which in Indiana it is 7%. Amazon has 4 warehouses in Indiana and the Simon Property group has files a lawsuit against Indiana for not making Amazon collect sales tax. The article that I read claims that it amounts to $400 million a year in lost tax revenues versus Amazon threatening to take away or not increase more jobs in Indiana if they are forced to collect sales tax!

Coincidentally, from my LBS I recently ordered a Hutchinson tubeless flat repair kit. Because their normal source was out of stock, they ended up finding a distributor that allowed them to give me two kits for the same price as I had already agreed to pay for one. Now how many businesses of any kind would do that!

[eddief]

i needed a couple of extra Hollowtech crank arm fixing bolts so I would have extras for my coupled travel bike. on a ride one day, i tried to find these specific bolts at three local shops. i didn't care if they were the Shimano part number or not, they just needed to fit correctly. two shops did not have either the shimano part or generic ones that would do the job. the third shop had a package of 2 bolts with the Shimano sticker on the package. i asked the shop person if i could afford them. he asked if i could afford $10 plus tax....for 2 small part bolts !?

i needed em, he had em, they had answered my questions for free a few other times i had stopped in --- this time they got my $10. it hurt, i understand what it takes to be there for all the nickel and dime parts and they deserved it.

but next time i might try our local specialized bolt merchant first.

think of zillions of bike brands and models out there, think of the zillion not so smart and smart customers that could come through the door, think of the zillion parts available. it takes a brave and talented and super smart business person to keep it together and be successful.

hats off.

[KF9YR]

My lbs stocks fizik, smp, brooks and bontrager saddles.

They also have demo saddles so you can try first.

I bought my current saddle at the lbs and wanted another for a bike I bought on the internet but didn't want plain black. I ordered and it came in a few days later...

The fitter told me to bring the bike in so he could make sure it was positioned exactly like the one on my Ottrott ( which I had purchased there).

15 minutes later he had it set up and told me the bars were 1 mm higher and 1 mm longer than my Ottrott...

I could have installed the saddle at home but wouldn't have been able to position it properly without the positioning tools (or a LOT of messing around with a square and tape).

Oh, the installation was covered by the local purchase. I own a testaurant and tipped him with a lunch on me.

I only buy things my lbs can't get on the internet...

[beeatnik]

Well said. I like point 1.

The distribution model seems to be evolving, slowly, to manufacturer sales. 'Stuff' wherehoused by the manufacturer, sells to the bike shop. Reduces the 'levels of distribution by one, however, with most, that hasn't resulted in a reduction in wholesale price(Mavic, CK, Cateye, others). Mostly they just increase their margin, in this tough market.

I would love to see shimano and Campagnolo go direct to the bike shop. Big $ to do that tho.

Isn't UPS driving the paradigm shift (pun intended). When I order from realcyclist.com at 8pm on a weeknight and I get a notification email that my item has shipped at 2am, I conclude that UPS is managing the supply chain for Outbound. "Logistics" and all that.

[jr59]

I do it a little differently. I shop on line first!
Then I go to my LBS, if they have what I want;
I take it to the counter and pay the bill. I don't think anything about the price in that case. They had it, and used their cash to stock it, they deserve a profit on this.

Now if they tell me they can order it, I say sure, HOW MUCH?
I will tell them the best price I could find online. If they match it, great, if not, nothing loss. I give them every chance to make a small % on things they don't stock.

It works for me and my LBS. They seem to get the internet. In fact most times they match the price, and a couple of times they have me buy more than what I needed and sell the extra to them.

Anyway, there is no easy answer here. It's a hard world in the bike buss these days. Glad it's not me.

[fourflys]

Isn't UPS driving the paradigm shift (pun intended). When I order from realcyclist.com at 8pm on a weeknight and I get a notification email that my item has shipped at 2am, I conclude that UPS is managing the supply chain for Outbound. "Logistics" and all that.

do you mean you think UPS has access to the Outbound warehouse and picks the parts, boxes them and then ships them? if so, I highly doubt that... more likely Outbound has a night crew and the "item has shipped" email at 2am only means that the box has been scanned into the UPS system by an Outbound employee and is waiting to be picked up by the UPS truck...

[beeatnik]

do you mean you think UPS has access to the Outbound warehouse and picks the parts, boxes them and then ships them? if so, I highly doubt that... more likely Outbound has a night crew and the "item has shipped" email at 2am only means that the box has been scanned into the UPS system by an Outbound employee and is waiting to be picked up by the UPS truck...

I meant that the "warehouse" is actually a giant, centrally located distribution center. I know a few years back UPS was moving aggressively into managing those facilities to essentially outsource warehousing and leverage their near monopoly on shipping for online retailers.

[Kontact]

The shop I'm at has Adamo, SMP, Kontact, SMP, Fizik, Terry and some Selle Italia. The list of saddles we don't have is longer than your arm, and likely doesn't include the two you're looking for.

But I'd bet you'd have a hard time finding an internet retailer that has both of those. The internet isn't a place, it's just a listing of stuff.

And this isn't a big or recent change. When I first worked in a shop, 21 years ago, we didn't have everything, and our prices weren't as low as Performance, Nashbar or Colorado Cyclist. The internet didn't change anything. Shops have survived mail order, they'll continue to survive the internet.

We get everything from QBP in a single day. That's generally faster than any online order.

[deechee]

You say you needed a new saddle to replace one that was in a crash. OK. One store had one of the two models you were looking at, yet you decided you didn't want it. Do you need two saddles to ride?

With the exception of tires and clothes, I buy most things at the LBS. I also pay for tune-ups and cleaning since they do it better than I do and I figure that's real money in their pockets rather than the pitiful % they get from selling items.

[bicycletricycle]

I can not believe that they did not have everything that you can get on the internet in stock.

shame on those establishments

:)

[93legendti]

If my lbs didn't have my saddle, I could order online, taking the time to do all the work or have the lbs order and do all the work-seems like a wash, maybe even easier for the lbs to do the leg work than me.

I've never bought the saddle I use at a bike store and it hasn't upset me.

[BumbleBeeDave]

There are so many options now, and so many products, that it's unrealistic to expect the LBS to have your selection in stock - unless it's a basic item. I use my LBS for tubes, tires, and the like. I'll order from them when it's not a HUGE money difference. I give them my labor because they do it better than me.

. . .the benefit of the doubt on many items, taking into account what others in this thread have said. There's so many makes and models and companies out there they can't possibly have everything. Heck, look at how many different saddles Selle Italia alone makes in God only knows how many colors!

But if they don't stock really standard stuff, then I write them off. One local shop did not have either standard SPD cleats or long valve stem 700c tubes when I went in two different times. I will not give them a third strike . . .

BBD

[Fixed]

tubes
cheers

[Cinci Jim]

I've had quite a few shops tell me they could order it for me but I have yet to take any of them up on it...maybe I should. Problem is, like you said, I can order it for me and most likely do it for less money. That makes it a tough world for the LBS.That said, I've also had so many shops that have treated me well by giving me small parts for free or super cheap (bearings, cable tips, barrel adjusters, spacers, etc.) that are a pain to order or are hard to find online, that I will try to return the favor by buying things there that I could get online, if they have it in stock.

To build on this - I call my LBS first to ask if they have something. Usually I call during a weekday when they are a little less busy. If they don't, they will usually offer to order it for me. I don't know if this is a standard promotion, but I have been told that QBP will upgrade to overnight shipping if the order reaches a certain threashold. I know my LBS works to manage this by sometimes stacking on common expendable items (tubes, tires, cables, etc) to reach the treashold. When it comes in they call me, I stop by with the bike, they will install it for free (usually, sometimes I don't need them to) and I browse around the store.

Usually I pay full price for this, sometimes not. I do however get great service. Last time I needed something right away, the owner stopped what he was doing and took about 45 minutes to do something for me that I could not do (Campy BB that someone had "glued" in with LocTite) - and after he finished he said "no charge" - This is why I work to keep a good relationship with my LBS.

[victoryfactory]

Look;
Most bike shop customers want a saddle, not a particular model of a certain brand.
Most customers need a new tire, not a particular model of a certain brand.
You are a connoisseur, You can't shop there unless you are willing to have
the LBS order the stuff for you.
You are going into 7/11 and asking for caviar.
Don't feel guilty either. Running a bike shop is about figuring out how to pay
the rent, not pleasing the few.

A good relationship with a decent LBS pays dividends when they save your butt
with a repair or a lent tool or a free sample, etc.

Order your esoteric stuff on line, try to get some stuff locally, compromise.
Even a "High end" shop can't afford to carry everything.

Finally, saddles are the wrong thing to use as an example anyway as there
are so many and everybody's butt is different.

The best way to sell/buy a saddle Thread drift...
I favor the approach where they have a box of loaners with one of each of the
saddles they sell. You give them a $100. deposit and select one to try for a week
or two, if you want to try another you just keep switching loaners until you
find the best one for you. You return the final loaner
and they give you a new one of your choice and charge you the balance.

Now if you want to talk about bike shops with jackass teenagers who don't know
what they are doing squeezing the decals off your 5K frame as they jam it into
the work stand, that's another thing.

Must be Monday, sorry for the rant

[sg8357]

Saddles I get.. but some of this stuff makes no sense to complain about.. like complaining about not being able to find a nice square-taper BB in a shop.

I have a horror of cottered cranks, too many friends hammering in cotters
with a rock on the side of the road, both my usual LBSs stock square bb.

Note, they are both authentic bike shops, not Studios or Concept Stores.

[Ti Designs]

Just a bit of retail retail logic here:

There are large brands which target the center of the bell curve with the idea that selling to 80% of the market is sustainable. Those big brands don't always overlap in market share, Specialized saddles and Fizik saddles fit different riders. Other brands are often used as fill ins for gaps in the big brand markets. A good example would be Brooks. Clearly not the same market, but they still go on top of a seatpost.

This is where the consumer says "a good bike shop should carry lots of different saddles". This is the difference between a consumer and the manager of a shop or department of a shop that remains in business. Let's say there's a 33% GPM on a saddle, and the shop orders 3 of them. Two of them sell over time, the third is the test ride saddle and becomes "shop worn goods". The shop may have done right by the customers who wanted this saddle, but it has lost money in the process. The smart manager can either guess at how many of these saddles are sold on request, or it's a special order product. As I saw James in the shop on Sunday, I'll point out that our sales history says we sold 3 SLR saddles this year. I would say that was a fair guess on the part of our saddle buyer.

I coach riders, I am well aware that this 80% rule leaves 20% of the population wanting for something. I myself ride a custom Serotta, I've always pushed the custom builders we've sold to offer custom at a wider range of price points. It annoys the hell out of me when we don't have what a customer wants (BTW, there are two SLR gel-flow saddles on pro bikes out on our sales floor). I spend a fair amount of time machining custom parts for those who find themselves to the far ends of the bell curve. I have to balance that with the understanding that I need to pay the mortgage, as does the shop at which I work.

[Climb01742]

i want to be clear. as i said in my original post, i'm not ranting or criticizing any shop. i know how tough the shop business is these days and shops need to go where the business is. it just seems as though much of the stuff i like is more often carried online, which means i buy less at local shops. i want to support LBS. i don't want bike shops to go the way of book shops in an amazon-enabled world. my post was just a lament.

[Climb01742]

(BTW, there are two SLR gel-flow saddles on pro bikes out on our sales floor).

ed, i would have happily taken one of those off of clint's hands yesterday if someone had mentioned it. hope your tandem fitting went well on sunday. :beer:

[Dan Le foot]

i needed a couple of extra Hollowtech crank arm fixing bolts so I would have extras for my coupled travel bike. on a ride one day, i tried to find these specific bolts at three local shops. i didn't care if they were the Shimano part number or not, they just needed to fit correctly. two shops did not have either the shimano part or generic ones that would do the job. the third shop had a package of 2 bolts with the Shimano sticker on the package. i asked the shop person if i could afford them. he asked if i could afford $10 plus tax....for 2 small part bolts !?


Reminded me of a time when I didn't tighten the ring bolts enough on Michelle's bike and 2 fell off during a ride. We were leaving on a 3 month trip the following day and I was beginning to panic. Went down to the LBS for help. They didn't have the bolts but the head wrench removed 2 bolts from his personal bike and sent me on my way. He never let me pay for them. Saved the trip and possibly the marriage
Can’t get that kind of service with an etailer. Thank you Mike Trone and El Camino bike shop. (San Diego)
Dan

[Dustin]

What drives me crazy lately is that every time I do order something from the LBS, something gets screwed up on the order and I end up waiting weeks for something I could have had in days from online. Every time.

But then they make it up with deals, help and support in other ways, and somehow my frustration with it all balances out.

They are passionate & knowledgeable bike people, but not business people.

Just wish more LBSs managed to be good at all three: passion, knowledge, and business acumen.

[Ti Designs]

Having just spoken with our saddle buyer, it's all very clear why we don't have exactly what James wanted in stock. Take a quick trip over to the web sites of the saddle manufacturers and take a look at their offerings. James wanted to replace a damaged saddle. If it were me I would want to replace it with the same thing - why mess with something that's working? There are 12 SLR saddles, some with huge cut-outs, some with no cut-outs, most with carbon rails that don't fit on most of the side mount seatposts (this has become a huge issue as half the cycling population is riding around on a Trek or Specialized, both use side mount seatposts). Even if we were ordering the saddle, there's a good chance that the description on the special order ticket wouldn't describe a unique saddle. What was on your bike from years past is no longer what they offer...

The bike industry has figured out that variety sells, so it's gone crazy coming up with different models. Put different tires on a bike, change up the paint job and there's another model (which retail stores have to stock in 8 different sizes). Saddles are not immune to this - I really think this is a mistake. Take for example the Flite saddle, lots of people love that saddle, best selling saddle for many years. They changed it, added 4 models instead of the standard Flite. Saddles are changing 10,000 times faster than the human ass, and nobody in the bike industry sees a problem with this.

[biker72]

You don't stock what doesn’t sell. Simple as that. If we have one call a year for a AS$-Butt buster saddle, we won't stock it.

When I first started working at my LBS 4 years ago there were zero Brooks saddles for sale. Today I counted 5, 4 B-17's and 1 Team Professional. People started asking for them.

We get deliveries on Thursdays. Order on Wednesday and your saddle/part will be in the store the next day. I don't understand the waiting for weeks that other posters have mentioned.

[Ti Designs]

You don't stock what doesn’t sell. Simple as that. If we have one call a year for a AS$-Butt buster saddle, we won't stock it.

Consumers don't get that. We have a large sample population - everyone we sell saddles to. Consumers have a sample size of 1. From their perspective you don't have the one saddle that matters to them. Purchasing becomes a guessing game of what people are going to want, the buyer with the best crystal ball has the best profits and the fewest complaints.

My local crystal ball shop didn't have the crystal ball I wanted...

[happycampyer]

It's funny, the nice weather in NYC and the discussion about bike shops to visit prompted me to wander over to Conrad's at lunchtime. Didn't have anything in particular in mind (well, actually I was hoping John would have some more of the new Assos winter kit—I had picked up some pieces last winter). It turns out that, of all things, I ended up getting a saddle that I had been thinking of getting for for a while, as well as a few things I hadn't. I guess we're spoiled to have a handful of really good LBS's to choose from—it's rare that LBS's I visit don't have things that interest me.

[pdmtong]

With all due respect to the OP, who is not ranting, my take is if you want to buy from a shop, then buy from a shop, whether you take it home or they order it. it's merely a timing difference in possession. saying "i tried" to buy from a shop is neither here nor there. as yoda said "do or do not, there is no try"

[Ken C]

I used to be real turned off when my shop didn't have something in stock, but lately I have just sucked it up and ordered it from them instead of going through the internet.

I must say I have been really impressed by how quickly it comes in. Usually two days, max three.

Yes I can find things on the internet cheaper, but then I think about what I do for a living. I feel that I am selling a premium product (state and local tax consulting) and it is frustrating when my customers are only looking for a cheap deal. I really like the guys down at my shop, they have always done right by me. I finally decided that I am going to treat them how I want my customers to treat me.

The amazing thing is that whatever premium I pay in tangible products, the shop has done things service wise to always make up for it.

As a side note, usually when you order something on the internet and the retailer does not charge sales tax, you are still legally obligated for it.

[54ny77]

What if QBP started opening retail stores?

[ultraman6970]

Is not going to happen.

[1happygirl]

Hey Guys!?

What about wanting to give the LBS the business AND get what you want?

Does it cost or lose money to the shop if they order it 4 U? Like others I would pay more but they refuse or can't order it for u.

To just order what I want does it cost too much in time & trouble for the shop?

[fogrider]

maybe its more a reflection of where I live, but there are a few shops in my area that are likely to have what I'm looking for. I walked by one of these shops on sunday and they were hang out at the shop...the closed sign was up, but the door was open and I could see some guys hanging around. at another shop, picked up a 70 cm stem, they pulled out three and asked about how much I wanted to pay. and I wandered around looking at the eye candy; a delta 7 frame set was hanging on the scale that day.

[rugbysecondrow]

It is not charity, it is an intersection of interests. The LBS has an interest in offering goods and services a swath of people will buy. The consumer needs a part for his bike. The customer also like supporting his LBS. If all three intersect for me, then we are good. I don't normally get mad about the lack of goods locally relative to the Internet, but I am also not going to pay a premium to them to do what I can do, excep now I have the privilege of going back tithe shop. If our interest meet, then we can do business, but otherwise I will handle my business differently.

[R2D2]

Hey Guys!?

What about wanting to give the LBS the business AND get what you want?

Does it cost or lose money to the shop if they order it 4 U? Like others I would pay more but they refuse or can't order it for u.

To just order what I want does it cost too much in time & trouble for the shop?

I went the "ordering" route once.
It took four weeks to get some tires I could have had in two days. And the price wasn't very good. Anyway I tried .............

[oldpotatoe]

What if QBP started opening retail stores?

Quality's success and survival depends on the IBD. They wouldn't make up the lost revenue in a few QBP bike shops that they will lose if they opened direct retailers. Altho really big, they are not the only game in town. There are 4-5 other big distributors, lots of smaller ones.

As for special orders, it depends on whether it costs the bike shop $ or not. If it's a small order, then the customer normally doesn't pay for the shipping to get it there. Margin oftimes doesn't make that up. And there are plenty of things that are consumer direct, they don't deal with bike shops, so a bike shop would have to pay retail along with the customer. Most small frame builders are like this, they need to maximize margin to stay around...geee, just like a bike shop.

[wasfast]

It is not charity, it is an intersection of interests. The LBS has an interest in offering goods and services a swath of people will buy. The consumer needs a part for his bike. The customer also like supporting his LBS. If all three intersect for me, then we are good. I don't normally get mad about the lack of goods locally relative to the Internet, but I am also not going to pay a premium to them to do what I can do, except now I have the privilege of going back to the shop. If our interest meet, then we can do business, but otherwise I will handle my business differently.

+1.

[nm87710]

What's an LBS? :rolleyes:

[buck-50]

Hey Guys!?

What about wanting to give the LBS the business AND get what you want?

Does it cost or lose money to the shop if they order it 4 U? Like others I would pay more but they refuse or can't order it for u.

To just order what I want does it cost too much in time & trouble for the shop?
Sure, they can order the part for me and then charge me for the privilege of having to drive to the store to pick it up a week after it would have arrived if I just bought it online myself.

[Ken Robb]

Hey Guys!?

What about wanting to give the LBS the business AND get what you want?

Does it cost or lose money to the shop if they order it 4 U? Like others I would pay more but they refuse or can't order it for u.

To just order what I want does it cost too much in time & trouble for the shop?

The owner of a good lbs once told me he would rather not handle MOST requests for special orders. I didn't ask him what price (or other criteria) would make a special order worth his trouble.

[biker72]

The owner of a good lbs once told me he would rather not handle MOST requests for special orders. I didn't ask him what price (or other criteria) would make a special order worth his trouble.
This really puzzles me. There is a small amount of paperwork involved in a special order but should be easily made up by the margin. In fact almost all of our special orders are done online...even less paperwork.

[bostondrunk]

What's an LBS? :rolleyes:
duh.
Local Beer Store

[rugbysecondrow]

This really puzzles me. There is a small amount of paperwork involved in a special order but should be easily made up by the margin. In fact almost all of our special orders are done online...even less paperwork.


Not to belabor the point, but this is THE point. I go to a shop for a specific service or a product. If I can provide that service or source that product, then I don't need to pay them for that service or the effort to source that product. If I am unable to perform that service or if I need the shop to order the product for some special reason, then I will go that route and pay them the profit they are due. Anything above that is charity.

The inverse is true as well. If I go to a LBS and try on clothes or shoes they have invested money towards inventory, then it is not right for me to go elsewhere to order online. I see this as cutting both ways IMO. I just bought a pair of shoes that I know I could have ordered cheaper elsewhere, but I was able to try them on, be served by a good staff and that is worth the extra money paid.

My view of the world though.

[beeatnik]

Reading these types of threads makes me feel fortunate to live near Pasadena and work in Santa Monica. The bike shops in these two towns carry 95% of the high end stuff and budget stuff I need. Just picked up a Enve cockpit which as far I was willing to research, you can only get on ebay for the same price as retail.

[Nelson99]

New LBS opened right down the road from the rural University where I work. I like it a lot. Owner's an MTB rider (but so am I on occasion) and a real nice guy. VERY knowledgeable about MTB, and has good respect for road bikes.

KEY POINT: he is an excellent mechanic. When I have a job that I don't have the time or tools to do, I bring it to him. He does a great job and often sells parts to complete or complement the job. Because I can count on him I am not afraid to bring him my high end bikes (that I usually only allow myself to F-up), and I recommend him heartily to friends.

I estimate that in the last six months he has gotten a few $k business from me or my referrals. Moving parts between frames for growing kids, building wheels, assembling my MTB, etc...

In every transaction he made some parts sales (sometimes more, sometimes less), and he made labor costs. He tells me he is doing OK financially, and I certainly hope this is true, because I don't want to lose the only guy in town that I can go to when I can't solve a problem myself.

So, I go there when I can, I send my friends there. I buy stuff from him when it is related to a build or a repair he is doing. In short, I do what I can to support his shop.

Bottom line, I think the changing model for some LBS will be skilled mechanics, low static inventory, strong community relationship endeavors. Shops that want to sell 200 Treks a year, usually aren't my cup of tea.

I, for one, will do what I can to keep the guys that run small shops with excellent mechanics alive and on the job.

Here's to skilled bike mechanics everywhere: :beer: :hello:

-CEN

[oldpotatoe]

New LBS opened right down the road from the rural University where I work. I like it a lot. Owner's an MTB rider (but so am I on occasion) and a real nice guy. VERY knowledgeable about MTB, and has good respect for road bikes.

KEY POINT: he is an excellent mechanic. When I have a job that I don't have the time or tools to do, I bring it to him. He does a great job and often sells parts to complete or complement the job. Because I can count on him I am not afraid to bring him my high end bikes (that I usually only allow myself to F-up), and I recommend him heartily to friends.

I estimate that in the last six months he has gotten a few $k business from me or my referrals. Moving parts between frames for growing kids, building wheels, assembling my MTB, etc...

In every transaction he made some parts sales (sometimes more, sometimes less), and he made labor costs. He tells me he is doing OK financially, and I certainly hope this is true, because I don't want to lose the only guy in town that I can go to when I can't solve a problem myself.

So, I go there when I can, I send my friends there. I buy stuff from him when it is related to a build or a repair he is doing. In short, I do what I can to support his shop.

Bottom line, I think the changing model for some LBS will be skilled mechanics, low static inventory, strong community relationship endeavors. Shops that want to sell 200 Treks a year, usually aren't my cup of tea.

I, for one, will do what I can to keep the guys that run small shops with excellent mechanics alive and on the job.

Here's to skilled bike mechanics everywhere: :beer: :hello:

-CEN

There is a place here that sells 200 Treks...a month, on average.

[TAW]

Just a reminder that there are good mechanics at big shops, too. ;) The shop I wrench at does a lot of work on a variety of bikes, from the Wal-Mart cheapies to the higher end stuff. If you can make a Huffy work great, you're well on your way to being a good mechanic.

[Germany_chris]

Forget it Climb, try finding stems :)

Shops don't and can't afford to carry stuff that won't turn over. Most mail order type shops like AE Bike as an example have a mail order presence but their web site is linked to Quality's so they really don't even stock parts but you order from them and Quality ships to them and then they ship to you.

AE Bike is a Michigan brick and mortar retailer with a nice web site

In Kalamazoo MI to be exact. The owners both father and son leave much to be desired...the staff is cool though..

[Ozz]

What if QBP started opening retail stores?
How about just setting up a direct order website.....LBS sets up a terminal in store where if customers can't find what they want in the store, they can use the terminal to search QBP and order it, pay via store POS system and it is delivered to the store.
Customer get access to huge inventory / selection
LBS gets foot traffic for cross-sells
Govt gets sales tax (collected by store)
Big question is who pays for shipping

[biker72]

How about just setting up a direct order website.....LBS sets up a terminal in store where if customers can't find what they want in the store, they can use the terminal to search QBP and order it, pay via store POS system and it is delivered to the store.
Customer get access to huge inventory / selection
LBS gets foot traffic for cross-sells
Govt gets sales tax (collected by store)
Big question is who pays for shipping
Some bike shops already have this.

[rustychisel]

in Australia the major problem is the supply chain and distributors, much more so than the LBS, who of course cannot stock everything.

It is easier, cheaper, and much quicker in nearly all instances for me to jump online, find what I want and have it delivered to my door. In 4 days I've had orders from Washington State and North Carolina delivered to Adelaide, Australia. That's service.

By contrast, a case in point. I wanted 2 x 36 hole Mavic Open Pro rims in brushed silver. Bog standard gettem' anywhere rims, huh? Nope, the LBS didn't have them in stock, had been waiting on stock for some weeks, so because I didn't have a timeline I ordered them through my LBS and sat back. It took just shy of 3 months for them to come through... "Oh sure, there's a shipment due next week. Or the week after..."

[Nelson99]

There is a place here that sells 200 Treks...a month, on average.

Holy cr&p Batman. Of course, I used to live in Madison (home of the flagship Trek shop). I might go there for a bit of ogling, but I know where I'd go for wrenching in your town... ;)

I should say, though, that I understand folks frustration. Until my buddy down the road opened his shop, I had nowhere to go. I called the old place in the town next door (great proprietor, really good guy), but when I asked about getting a frame checked for alignment the mechanic said:

"Huh? Are there tools for that?"

Ok, they might not (probably don't) have a frame table, they might not even have dropout alignment tools, and it is hard to hire and retain good people, and salaries are hard to pay. BUT, now I only go there to chat, buy an occasional tube or tire, and hit some rides with the owner. They don't touch my bikes. :bike:

[dhoff]

My LBS is a great place. The fact is they don't cater to cyclists on custom bikes, but they do like people who ride. And since I ride, they take a real interest in taking care of me.

From parts for my fixie, to special lights, to unusual spokes or anything else I need, they do not hesitate to order me what ever I am looking for. What I am looking for is often not what they generally use. But they take care of me and when they don't, when I order on line or show up with some item I spent a lot of money on somewhere else, they do not miss a beat. It is true, they are not experts in Di2.

Overlook Cycles in Woodstock has been an asset to me from the day I bought my first adult bicycle there some years ago. And Billy, the owner is a gentleman, not a term I use lightly.

-d

[rustychisel]

it is hard to hire and retain good people, and salaries are hard to pay. BUT, now I only go there to chat, buy an occasional tube or tire, and hit some rides with the owner. They don't touch my bikes. :bike:


I walked into the LBS (although there's about 4 to choose from) and asked the new shop guy if I could buy a Torx T25 spanner...

he looked at me and said "I don't speak that language, I don't have a clue what you're asking for" and had to go and get help.

I do my own mechanicals, can you guess why? But equally, why is he working in a bike shop?

[Bruce K]

It's because you need to speak English not Aussie !!! :eek: :cool: :help: ;)

It's a "wrench" and if I hadn't worked on British sports cars I'd probably have little clue as to what a spanner is. :crap:

On a more serious note I hope we'll actually get a ride in next time we're there.

BK

[oldpotatoe]

I walked into the LBS (although there's about 4 to choose from) and asked the new shop guy if I could buy a Torx T25 spanner...

he looked at me and said "I don't speak that language, I don't have a clue what you're asking for" and had to go and get help.

I do my own mechanicals, can you guess why? But equally, why is he working in a bike shop?

big sigh......why indeed. Even in the Republic, we see some work done by other so called 'pro' shops that is just appalling.

No real career path in bicycle retail for the 'FNG', no pay, no training, no motivation. I have wondered why there is no "ACE", Automotive Service Excellence, version for bicycles(BSE). Teeny market, group, I guess, when compared to Autos. And please don't mention the 2 'bike schools', yep, they do an OK job but even their information is dated and ofttimes inaccurate.

[dsb]

big sigh......why indeed. Even in the Republic, we see some work done by other so called 'pro' shops that is just appalling.

No real career path in bicycle retail for the 'FNG', no pay, no training, no motivation. I have wondered why there is no "ACE", Automotive Service Excellence, version for bicycles(BSE). Teeny market, group, I guess, when compared to Autos. And please don't mention the 2 'bike schools', yep, they do an OK job but even their information is dated and ofttimes inaccurate.
I actually think it's worse in automotive mechanics but probably less recognized because a smaller percentage of the population has any clue how to work on a car... But hey, 'anybody' can fix a bike...

The ASE certs are all paper based and basically indicate that a tech can read... I have(had? haven't worked on cars for a living in a long time...) ASE certification for automatic transmission repair. I've never had one apart, wouldn't even know where to start... They make good boat anchors right?

[Kirk Pacenti]

big sigh......why indeed. Even in the Republic, we see some work done by other so called 'pro' shops that is just appalling.

No real career path in bicycle retail for the 'FNG', no pay, no training, no motivation. I have wondered why there is no "ACE", Automotive Service Excellence, version for bicycles(BSE). Teeny market, group, I guess, when compared to Autos. And please don't mention the 2 'bike schools', yep, they do an OK job but even their information is dated and ofttimes inaccurate.

I am pretty sure Germany (maybe the whole EU?) has an apprenticeship and certification program for bicycle mechanics. Of course bicycles are considered a legitimate form of transportation there... :crap:

Cheers,
KP

[1happygirl]

Hey as far as mechanix I wish I knew more, bucket list Barnett's 101 skool when I have the $$$ and time off. Interesting learning thread here. I suspected as much of ASE mechanical certification.
Most LBS don't care about my frame or paint and bang the *$^%#@ out of my bike. Nt cool to me. If I want scratches, I'll do it by riding it myself

Old P 200 bikes (of any brand a month)--YooWee. That's a lot. (jealous of peeps living in a bike friendly area)

[dsb]

Bicycle Repair Man ...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rxfzm9dfqBw

[oldpotatoe]

Hey as far as mechanix I wish I knew more, bucket list Barnett's 101 skool when I have the $$$ and time off. Interesting learning thread here. I suspected as much of ASE mechanical certification.
Most LBS don't care about my frame or paint and bang the *$^%#@ out of my bike. Nt cool to me. If I want scratches, I'll do it by riding it myself

Old P 200 bikes (of any brand a month)--YooWee. That's a lot. (jealous of peeps living in a bike friendly area)


BIG 50,000 sq ft 'almost like walmart' bike shop. Continuous sales, discounts, really poor set up and service.

[fourflys]

Torx T25 spanner...


T25 spanner? when I hear the word spanner, I think wrench... and I mean something with an open end... this certainly wouldn't be a Torx... not saying guy shouldn't have known what a T25 is, but maybe the spanner part threw him off...

to me, having been around a naval service for 18 years, this is a spanner...

https://encrypted-tbn2.google.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTcxpeVnyYxQQ7EPGMWBXQ5rJh1HSg2Z drl69m25qWRnQhqGwWR