Why can't I no hand ride my cross bike?

[konstantkarma]

I have been riding racing or touring style road bikes for 35 years (yes I am old!). I have had many bicycles, and have been able to ride no handed on all of them. In fact I have become very comfortable riding this way, and as I have gotten older I have used the no hand position to stretch out my cranky lower back during rides. This has worked pretty well for me.

These days my main bike is my fantastic Serotta Concours, which rides beautifully. I can crank no handed on this bike with no problems..up hills, down hills, to remove a jacket, to grab a bite to eat from my jersey pockets etc. I Recently built up a Gunnar Crosshairs for some dirt and chip seal riding. I really like the bike, but can not ride it no handed. When I do it trails right or left and I have to grab the bars to stay upright. The biggest problem with this is that I can not stretch out my lower back while riding, and have to stop to stretch. I have made most of the contact points (seat hight, reach etc.) as close as possible between the Gunnar and my other bikes.

Here are the differences that may be affecting my no handed ability, as I see them.

1. bigger bike. The Gunnar is a 56, and all of my other bikes are 54 or 55 and stock geometry. However, the Gunnar is not too big for me, and is comfortable otherwise.

2. Longer chainstays. Being a cross bike the Gunnar has 43 cm chainstays, whereas the road specific bikes all have shorter stays.

3. bottom bracket drop? I do not think tat this is a factor since it is a pretty common 7 cm drop.

4. Longer trail? The Gunnar has 6 cm of trail, I do not know how standard this is.

5. For Rake? I do not think that this is the issue because it is a pretty pedestrian 43 on the Gunnar, although a Winwood cross fork was added by the previous owner, and I do not know the rake of this fork.

I have also tested a couple of modifications including 32 mm versus 25 mm tires.....and a 110 mm versus a 100 mm stem.......each of these changes did not improve no handed stability.

I was wondering if anyone, particularly builders, might have any insight into why this is. Should I just give up on trying to improve no handed stability?

Thanks!

[Birddog]

Given what you have told us, I would say the bike is too big since most cross bikes are sized the same or slightly smaller in seat tube size parlance. I really don't think the fact that it might be too big is the problem in and of itself though. I think maybe because of it's size you are just not properly positioned (fore and aft). I'm pretty much convinced that given a decent frame, when one is perched properly on it you can ride no handed. If you are off that sweet spot, it gives you fits. Saddle tilt is also important. Hope that helps some.

[Mike748]

6cm trail is pretty neutral and should be fine no handed. I think maybe the replacement fork has too much offset, and your actual trail is much lower.

[Lifelover]

Can't help with the why but I had the same problem with a Redline CX bike.

Also was bigge rthan expected for a 58.

I don't think it's a size thing I assume it's geo. Didn't like it so I sold it and got a touring bike.

[JLP]

A couple of thoughts.

Do you still have the stock fork? If the new fork has a different rake or a different length, you could have changed the trail quite a bit. If the new fork is shorter, for example, you have increased the head angle and decreased trail.

I'd put the old fork back on or at least confirm the geometry of the new fork.

Also, I've seen very subtle headset adjustments add enough funk to the front of a bike that they ride fine --except no hands.

Start by confirming the fork geometry...that's a likely issue. Any time someone swaps a fork without confirming geometry it's a red flag.

Perhaps I'd also rule out some other frame issues as well. Have a shop use a frame alignment gauge and drop out alignment tools to make sure the bike is still aligned. Or do it yourself by running a string from dropout to head tube to dropout and confirming the distance from the seat tube to the string is equidistant.

Confirm the rear wheel is dished appropriately.

Absolutely don't give up. This shouldn't be hard to isolate. The worst case would be a proper fork or a headset.

Joe

[Fixed]

switch wheels
worth a try
cheers

[konstantkarma]

A couple of thoughts.

Do you still have the stock fork? If the new fork has a different rake or a different length, you could have changed the trail quite a bit. If the new fork is shorter, for example, you have increased the head angle and decreased trail.

I'd put the old fork back on or at least confirm the geometry of the new fork.

Also, I've seen very subtle headset adjustments add enough funk to the front of a bike that they ride fine --except no hands.

Start by confirming the fork geometry...that's a likely issue. Any time someone swaps a fork without confirming geometry it's a red flag.

Perhaps I'd also rule out some other frame issues as well. Have a shop use a frame alignment gauge and drop out alignment tools to make sure the bike is still aligned. Or do it yourself by running a string from dropout to head tune to dropout. Also confirm the rear wheel is dished appropriately.

Absolutely don't give up. The worst case would be a proper fork or a headset.

Joe

I do not have the stock fork. Gunnar sell them with or without stock steel forks. The Gunnar fork spec'd on their web site is a 43mm rake. From what I can gather from Winwood, their forks appear to have 45 mm rake. Could this be it?

[JLP]

I do not have the stock fork. Gunnar sell them with or without stock steel forks. The Gunnar fork spec'd on their web site is a 43mm rake. From what I can gather from Winwood, their forks appear to have 45 mm rake. Could this be it?

No, a couple mm wouldn't do it. You still need to confirm the length of the fork though. Waterford/Gunnar will tell you what it should be if you call them. You are after the crown race to axel length. This needs to be the same.

[ultraman6970]

But what happens when u go no hands?? it goes to the side?? the front wheel woobles??? U say that u cant but what happens then?

Asking because if the fork or the frame arent straight then u will have problems big time riding no hands.

[konstantkarma]

switch wheels
worth a try
cheers

I have tried this to no avail. Currently I am running 32 spoke OP Cds. They are true. I have tried these with both 25 and 32 mm tires. I have also tried my Easton wheels with 23 mm tires.

[konstantkarma]

But what happens when u go no hands?? it goes to the side?? the front wheel woobles??? U say that u cant but what happens then?

Asking because if the fork or the frame arent straight then u will have problems big time riding no hands.

usually the bike trails right.....although this could be me or the road forcing it right.

[JLP]

So if I found the correct information on the web, that fork is 396mm and the gunnar spec is 395.

That is not your problem.

If the rear wheel is indeed dished, and I'll assume it is because you tried two sets of wheels, then I'd go next to headset and frame alignment.

[Fixed]

i know you have checked your headset
i hate the feeling of taking my hands off the bars and not being able to depend on the bike to track straight . sometimes it feels really good to sit up and ride (no hands ) it is like a breather on the bike
cheers

[rice rocket]

Maybe look at the simpler things? Are your headset bearings lumpy or maybe over/under-preloaded?

[Acotts]

Can't help with the why but I had the same problem with a Redline CX bike.

Also was bigge rthan expected for a 58.

I don't think it's a size thing I assume it's geo. Didn't like it so I sold it and got a touring bike.

Thats funny, I had that same problem with a not custom built for me Strong with very traditional 57 squared sizing. I sold the Strong and bought a 58cm redline...it was one of the best riding bikes I have ever had. It road just like my CAAD9 but with bigger tires.

[benb]

Probably too big but it could be the frame alignment is off.

[konstantkarma]

I think those of you voting headset may be on to something. I would describe it (a Ritchey WCS) is a bit "hitchey" or "lumpy". I have it adjusted now so that the steering moves freely without any clunking coming from the fork, but I can still feel a small amount of grab when it is on the workstand.

Maybe look at the simpler things? Are your headset bearings lumpy or maybe over/under-preloaded?

[JLP]

That's it for sure. Look no further.

[konstantkarma]

So if I found the correct information on the web, that fork is 396mm and the gunnar spec is 395.

That is not your problem.

If the rear wheel is indeed dished, and I'll assume it is because you tried two sets of wheels, then I'd go next to headset and frame alignment.

Thanks for looking that up JLP. The wheels are newly built 32 spoke oped Pro CDs laced ultegra hubs. The shop that built the rear had originally screwed up the dish, but have since corrected it. Also, with the other wheels I had the same problem no handed.

[tuscanyswe]

If you lean forward almost to a possition you would be in when holding the bars / levers but with no hands, do you still have the same issues?

I had a slightly big bike before that had this issue and when i leaned forward putting more weight on the front wheel i could ride it no hands np but when sitting back / up it was a struggle.

[konstantkarma]

If you lean forward almost to a possition you would be in when holding the bars / levers but with no hands, do you still have the same issues?

I had a slightly big bike before that had this issue and when i leaned forward putting more weight on the front wheel i could ride it no hands np but when sitting back / up it was a struggle.

I have tried this, and it does work a bit better. But I still can not ride no handed for long this way either.

[jmeloy]

I have tried this, and it does work a bit better. But I still can not ride no handed for long this way either.
I had a similar situation on a new bike. It always pulled slightly to the right and I couldn't "no hands" it. Turned out to be that the front axle was not fully seated on one side. Absolutely impossible to see "visually". Sent back to builder and he had to file the drop just very slightly. Axle then sat right down where it should and could no hand all day!

[gregj]

Echoing others, I would check (1) headset, (2) alignment.

In my experience, these as well as tires and baggage/racks seemed to influence my ability to ride no hands the most.

If nothing else, it just might be that the geometry just doesn't allow for no-hands riding with your riding position. (Although I think the 56 Gunnar has pretty standard geometry.)

Let us know how it goes.

Greg

[Ed-B]

In my experience, a bike that consistently pulls in one direction is usually out of alignment somewhere - the wheels are not tracking on the same path in the same vertical plane.

When you're riding hands-off you're balanced on the rear wheel. If the front wheel is leaned over it'll work to right itself, and the bike will pull in the direction of the corrective action.

This is easy to check visually:

While you have the bike in the workstand, get down and sight the road contact points of the front and rear wheels. Make sure the wheels are properly seated in the dropouts and that the front wheel is pointed straight ahead. The wheels should be perfectly aligned where the rubber meets the road.

[Sheldon4209]

Could it be brake or shift cables pulling the bike to the right?

[konstantkarma]

Thanks for all of the great suggestions. I will start with the headset adjustment and see if that works. I'll post back the results.

[Hindmost]

One thing I do when I check a headset is to place the bike on the floor, hold it vertical using the top tube, set the front wheel pointed straight, and gradually rock the bike to one side. Reset everything vertical and straight and try the other side. Sometimes I lift the bike slightly above the floor, hold it level, and do the same test. You can pick up on a too-tight headset, a brenneled lower cup, or cable binding if the front wheel does not track smoothly left and right.

[fogrider]

Could it be brake or shift cables pulling the bike to the right?
I kind of like this. but as other have said, frame alignment should be checked.

[BryanE]

Knobby cross tires make it harder?
Bryan

[Fixed]

no
cheers

[konstantkarma]

No. The second set of wheels I tried had 25 mm road tires mounted. Still unstable.

Knobby cross tires make it harder?
Bryan

[tony.corke]

Here is a common issue that can come from very subtle miss adjustments in rider positioning.
Wieght distribution between the front and rear wheels effects steering response in some very interesting ways.
I dont have time to respond in full now but im very interested in this thread and would love to talk to you about this issue.
Ill pm my cell number.
Tony

[Nooch]

I can ride no handed... on the trainer... in my bedroom... and nowhere else.

Really gotta start working on my core strength..

[Bob Loblaw]

An idea that no one has thrown out yet is cables. It usually pulls to the right side, if I am reading this correctly. If the rear brake cable housing is too short or inflexible, or if the housing runs the length of the top tube and starts to work its way backward as you ride, it will pull the handlebar to the left which results in a right-turn counter-steer. Something to rule out anyway.

Failing that, I agree it's most likely a headset issue, as there's nothing problematic in the rake and trail numbers you posted.

BL

[konstantkarma]

Thanks for all of the great suggestions. I will start with the headset adjustment and see if that works. I'll post back the results.


No Handed Problem has been solved. I replaced the worn headset with a new Cane Creek 100 headset, and I can now ride no handed on the Gunnar. It is hard to believe that a sticky headset can affect balance so drastically, but it makes sense. It is a relief to sit up and stretch again!

Thanks for the help :banana: .