Vino, Vino, Vino

[Onno]

OK, so he's a hellatiously tough and competitive rider, proving that he really does have the legs and power to win the tour in his TT on Saturday, and again on his amazing sprint to the finish line yesterday. The tour does need more riders who are willing to test themselves and their competitors more often.

Did anyone, though, find his sprint for bonus seconds mid-way through yesterday's stage (to get ahead of Leipheimer, who was only 2 seconds ahead on G.C.) a little cheesy? It seemed like a slightly ignoble way to gain a position. On the other hand, bonus seconds are bonus seconds, and what's the point having them if those for whom they matter the most don't fight for them? In the end it was all moot, of course. Winning a stage is definitely a noble way of gaining time, and improving one's overall standing.

Although, I wonder if he ticked off the sprinters, who hadn't had a real sprint finish in a very long time? Bike racing is funny, isn't it? There are so many unwritten 'rules', so many conventions about when it is OK to attack and when it is not. Vino certainly broke with convention (again) yesterday.

Onno

[bostondrunk]

OK, so he's a hellatiously tough and competitive rider, proving that he really does have the legs and power to win the tour in his TT on Saturday, and again on his amazing sprint to the finish line yesterday. The tour does need more riders who are willing to test themselves and their competitors more often.

Did anyone, though, find his sprint for bonus seconds mid-way through yesterday's stage (to get ahead of Leipheimer, who was only 2 seconds ahead on G.C.) a little cheesy? It seemed like a slightly ignoble way to gain a position. On the other hand, bonus seconds are bonus seconds, and what's the point having them if those for whom they matter the most don't fight for them? In the end it was all moot, of course. Winning a stage is definitely a noble way of gaining time, and improving one's overall standing.

Although, I wonder if he ticked off the sprinters, who hadn't had a real sprint finish in a very long time? Bike racing is funny, isn't it? There are so many unwritten 'rules', so many conventions about when it is OK to attack and when it is not. Vino certainly broke with convention (again) yesterday.

Onno

I think you wouldn't make a very good bike racer. "Oh, you go ahead and win today, I'll sit back and eat my grey poupon..."....hhahahahaha <burp>
Vino's attack was great. The opportunity was there, he took it, and made Landis's team look bad at the same time. I thought it was a great move, and I laughed my *** off watching Levi's team go into panic mode. The fact that he took the stage from the sprinters was great too, about time someone shook it up.

[Climb01742]

hard to miss, though, that not a single t-mobile teammate was in sight at either the bonus sprint or the finale. vino certainly never gives up. and he raised his asking price. and pissed off a few former-teammates maybe. ah, such is life.

[Spinsistah]

Since he's looking for a new contract, my guess is Vino wanted as strong a finish as possible. "No gifts" certainly applies to him.

[bostondrunk]

ANyone notice that anytime vino was talking to lance, either in the peleton, or after the race yesterday, he kept motioning to his sponsors logo on the front of the jersey, and then would pat Armstrong? Was that secret code??? :confused:

[William]

Shake up the status quo! My kind of guy.


William :banana:

[Onno]

I'm not saying I agree with these conventions. I just know they exist and that they do play a role in how and when riders attack. I think they exist in part because bike racing involves being in very close quarters with your competitors for a long period of time (weeks!), much more so than other sports. Many of these riders become your friends. Lots of people naturally want to make friends, of course, but it also makes racing safer to know that there are conventions about when to attack and when not to, who to draft, how to make contact, etc. It's part of what makes bike racing unique and interesting.

But you're right, I would not make a good bike racer. :D

Onno

[bostondrunk]

I'm not saying I agree with these conventions. I just know they exist and that they do play a role in how and when riders attack. I think they exist in part because bike racing involves being in very close quarters with your competitors for a long period of time (weeks!), much more so than other sports. Many of these riders become your friends. Lots of people naturally want to make friends, of course, but it also makes racing safer to know that there are conventions about when to attack and when not to, who to draft, how to make contact, etc. It's part of what makes bike racing unique and interesting.

But you're right, I would not make a good bike racer. :D

Onno

There is a reason why the organizers put time bonuses on the stages, including the last stage. Its not so the riders can be friends.

[darylb]

OK, so he's a hellatiously tough and competitive rider, proving that he really does have the legs and power to win the tour in his TT on Saturday, and again on his amazing sprint to the finish line yesterday. The tour does need more riders who are willing to test themselves and their competitors more often.

Did anyone, though, find his sprint for bonus seconds mid-way through yesterday's stage (to get ahead of Leipheimer, who was only 2 seconds ahead on G.C.) a little cheesy? It seemed like a slightly ignoble way to gain a position. On the other hand, bonus seconds are bonus seconds, and what's the point having them if those for whom they matter the most don't fight for them? In the end it was all moot, of course. Winning a stage is definitely a noble way of gaining time, and improving one's overall standing.

Although, I wonder if he ticked off the sprinters, who hadn't had a real sprint finish in a very long time? Bike racing is funny, isn't it? There are so many unwritten 'rules', so many conventions about when it is OK to attack and when it is not. Vino certainly broke with convention (again) yesterday.

Onno

I found the first bonus point thing a bit cheesy also. I was thinking at the time that you had three weeks to get yourself into your desired slot and to try to snake a few seconds on a 15mph stage is cheesy. At the same time, as much as I would have liked to see Levi hold on to 5th, he wasnt able to come up with the goods to get a good hold on it. He would have had it solid with a better final TT performance.

Now, winning the stage is a whole different deal. I think that earns the 5th spot for Vino not only because of time bonuses but it even looked like there was a time gap. Either way, not cheesy and a great effort. I'm not a huge Vino fan, dont necessarily dislike him either, but gotta respect winning in Paris. As for the sprinters, it seemed to me that whatever sprinters were left didnt have a team with enough fire power to hold it together.

[ClutchCargo]

imo, the only ones who have a right to be ticked off over Vino's intermediate sprint are the Gerolsteiner boys--and they should be mad at themselves: they were simply asleep at the switch on the intermediate sprint. anyone could've predicted such a move (see, e.g., the Daily Peloton intro to their live feed). why didn't they launch one or two riders early prior to the sprint to mop up the points ... especially because it was Vino who might challenge them ? it's tradition not to challenge the yellow jersey on the last day, although even that tradition seems not to be set in stone, as I remember speculation whether Jan would try and take a run at Lance in '03 if the lead were small enough on the last day. but I've never heard that the points competition or other places on the GC are immune from challenge on the laast day. you could also say that Gerolsteiner can be faulted at the end, too, because they have a legitimate sprint threat in Forster, yet they were nowhere to be found in the finale.

but still, it's hard to figure out what the organizers were up to, seemingly calling the GC positions final as they entered the last circuits due to the wet surface, but then awarding the 20 second bonus to Vino. dunno where that came from.

it'll be interesting to see where Vino lands for next year, in any event. he's obviously a talented and powerful rider, but both his own manager and Bruyneel are on the record as saying he can't win the whole enhilada.

cheers, mate!

[csb]

as i understand it, if he rode a trek TT bike he'd a much better trialist.

as for the last day of 'racing', they need to decide if its a stage or
a sweet 21 party (i know its all about sponsors + their $ blah, blah, blah...)

[William]

BD, you're swell and I'm not going to contset the bonus sprints because you're my buddy. HEY LOOK, A BASSET HOUND (zoom!!)!


SUCKA! :crap:


Your buddy, :banana:
William ;)

[spiderlake]

I was glad to see Levi attempted to sprint against Vino. When I heard Ligget and Sherwen saying he had sent his sprinters up to the front I was thinking that was kinda weak. Then I saw Levi on Vino's wheel and felt much better. According to OLN, the difference between 5th and 6th place is something like 27 large. I'd sprint for that!

I also noticed that Vino kept motioning to his jersey whenever he talked to Lance. Lance does have part ownership in the mgmt team of Disco - could they have been negotiating?!?! Yes, pure speculation on my part.

Did anyone catch Vino grabbing LA's thigh? At first I thought he was reaching for his hand but he seemed to clearly grab his thigh and pinch it?????

[bostondrunk]

BD, you're swell and I'm not going to contset the bonus sprints because you're my buddy. HEY LOOK, A BASSET HOUND (zoom!!)!


SUCKA! :crap:


Your buddy, :banana:
William ;)

WHERE?!??!!?:)

I guess I don't see the problem with him going for the bonus. It's really no different than how the sprinters fight for the green jersey on the last day. And as sonmeone just mentioned, there was some serious cash on the line for moving up one position.

[Spicoli]

First pissin about George "sittin in" (My Arse!) and now bonus sprints are rude? Anyone ever go for a "prime"? You dont just go pick it up w/out any effort. Do you know how many matches Vino burnt to get the bonus time. A mortal human would have been crapped out the back imediatly after that 2k sprint, but he went on to win. RESPECT RESPECT RESPECT!
Lets just give it all away so those taking it will think highly of us. Thats a scary way to think, if you are or want to be on top. :confused:

[Onno]

Do the riders of the Tour really ride for the cash bonuses and prizes? S and L (Sherwin and Ligget) keep saying that all the money they win on the road goes to the team to share, and the real money is in the contracts they make based on their past winning, and for the very fortunate few, for the advertising deals they can make. Yes 27K between 5th and 6th is real dough, but not if it's divided by 9 or 10. I imagine Vino was driven much more by sheer competitive drive, by the desire to show that he's always 'on', than by a few thousand bucks. He stole a lot of people's thunder yesterday, and by doing that he also probably raised his asking price for his next contract.

Onno

[Samster]

Personally, I like cheese... a lot.

Sprint away.

--Sam

[sc53]

Yeah, I noticed the Vino sign language with Lance yesterday. Esp at the podium, where Vino brushed the T-Mobile part of his jersey, then patted the Discovery logo on Lance's jersey. The hand signals seemed to say, to me, I'd like to replace the T-Mobile with Disco next year. What was going on?

[spiderlake]

Do the riders of the Tour really ride for the cash bonuses and prizes? S and L (Sherwin and Ligget) keep saying that all the money they win on the road goes to the team to share, and the real money is in the contracts they make based on their past winning, and for the very fortunate few, for the advertising deals they can make. Yes 27K between 5th and 6th is real dough, but not if it's divided by 9 or 10. I imagine Vino was driven much more by sheer competitive drive, by the desire to show that he's always 'on', than by a few thousand bucks. He stole a lot of people's thunder yesterday, and by doing that he also probably raised his asking price for his next contract.

Onno

Racing for bonus times, stage wins and final placement are, imho, all part of the equation. Whether they split the money or keep it for themselves (I've heard the top riders/team leaders split or give away their prize money), it all helps in padding their resume and ultimately, in negotiating their new contract. In short, it's all about the Benjamins - the rubles or the almighty Euro! : )

[Onno]

Of course it doesn't amount to a hill of beans if any of us find rider antics cheesy or not (mixing food metaphors). I guess what I'm really curious about is whether Vino's various moves tick off a lot of other riders. I get the impression that Jan, Lance, Ivan, Tyler and others are well-respected in the peloton, and that they care about being respected as well as winning. Respect in racing matters more than just being liked and having friends. It means that riders will not attack when you crash or take a leak, for instance, or make way for you if you're trying to get to the front. Vino is such an unusual rider that I really don't know whether he's earning lots of respect in the peloton (for his real strength and courage) or making himself a kind of outcast (by breaking unwritten codes).

I'm not advancing any hidden political agenda here. :rolleyes: I'm just a curious avid fan.

Onno

[e-RICHIE]

snipped: I really don't know whether he's earning lots of respect in the peloton (for his real strength and courage) or making himself a kind of outcast (by breaking unwritten codes). Onno


i don't know which unwritten codes he may have broken,
but vino sprinted for the stage win which comes with time
bonuses. as i read the news, it was the intermediate sprints
which were halted once the "weather" rule was put into effect.
e-RICHIE©™®

[Kines]

Yeah, I saw vino go for the thigh - my wife and I were watching and she said she thought he was going for a piece of the package. Then she degenerated into curiosity about the prevalence of homosexuality in the peloton and so forth, and I turned up the volume on the TV a little bit more....

[97CSI]

but still, it's hard to figure out what the organizers were up to, seemingly calling the GC positions final as they entered the last circuits due to the wet surface, but then awarding the 20 second bonus to Vino. dunno where that came from. cheers, mate!Yeah. What's up with this? Have we heard anything from Levi's team about this? Levi lost the intermediate sprint fair and square. No complaint there. But what about the time bonuses at the end? What I heard in the broadcast (and I watched it twice) was that the rest of the time bonuses were cancelled and the final placings were set 30 miles from the end of the stage. What gives?

And as far as Vino goes, good on ya, mate! I like the way he rides. From what we've seen, anyone who wants to be somebody, other than Jan, is smart to get out of T-Mobile.

[e-RICHIE]

fwiw

from velonews.com


4:17 p.m. - The officials have ruled that riders' finishing times will be applied on the first lap, given that the roads on the Champs-Élysées are so slick. That means that Armstrong, assuming he makes it to the the Champs-Élysées, will win the 2005 Tour de France on the first lap.

Meanwhile time bonuses will apply, so the Vino'/Levi battle will continue.

[97CSI]

Thanks.
from velonews.com
4:17 p.m. - The officials have ruled that riders' finishing times will be applied on the first lap....
Meanwhile time bonuses will apply, so the Vino'/Levi battle will continue.Maybe it doesn't read in such a contradictory manner in French. I'll have to ask my wife.

[e-RICHIE]

Thanks.
Maybe it doesn't read in such a contradictory manner in French. I'll have to ask my wife.


neither vino nor levi are french.
bananas!
e-RICHIE©™®

[djg]

He was in a bike race. And he raced. What's the world coming to?

[Dr. Doofus]

its been tradition not to attack top-10 places on the last day. the intermediate sprints have usually been fought over if the green jersey is still up for grabs.


vino and rumsas have been the two riders of note in the last few years to break the gentelmens' agreement not to attack top-10 (or in rumsas' case, podium) spots on the last day.


the stage win was a great, agressive thing, but in the bonus sprint, vino was racing for next year's salary, and that was it -- cracking the top 5 in the Tour traditionally gives a rider more leverage in negotiation.

[e-RICHIE]

snipped: its been tradition not to attack top-10 places on the last day.

but getting a stage win is not part of "that" tradition, correct?
e-RICHIE©™®

[Dr. Doofus]

but getting a stage win is not part of "that" tradition, correct?
e-RICHIE©™®

ritchie-master...you know as well as anyone else here the history of the tour. Hinault was the last winner to go for a stage win in a bunch finish in Paris...and it has been a long, long time since a rider in the Top 10 has made the kind of move Vino did yesterday. The only one the doof can remember (and he didn't start following the Tour until 1981) is that patron Hinault, again...though that fast guy Eddy went for the spint on the Champs a few times, as well.

In the patron days (doof is considering Hinault the last true old-school style patron), this kind of thing wasn't done unless it was the boss who did it. Certainly, the free-market bulls of the forum think that sort of thing is antiquated and reeks of socialism (which it does...the patron of the bunch saying no, take it easy until the arc and the cobbles, we've all earned our spots over 3 weeks, no let's be sensible...not a "free-market" mindset). However, as the money in the sport has changed, it may be that the aggression Vino showed on the last day becomes more and more common -- fighting out places on the last day for salary and publicity.

Please correct me politely and with ample bananas (as is your gracious and instructive habit) if I am getting doofus Tour history incorrect....

[bostondrunk]

Vino kind of reminds me of Claudio Chiapucci (sp?).

Oh, and while I don't pretend to know what the lower guys on the team make, I bet none of them mind being handed an extra few grand by a team mate. :beer:

[e-RICHIE]

ritchie-master...you know as well as anyone else here the history of the tour. Hinault was the last winner to go for a stage win in a bunch finish in Paris...and it has been a long, long time since a rider in the Top 10 has made the kind of move Vino did yesterday. The only one the doof can remember (and he didn't start following the Tour until 1981) is that patron Hinault, again...though that fast guy Eddy went for the spint on the Champs a few times, as well.

In the patron days (doof is considering Hinault the last true old-school style patron), this kind of thing wasn't done unless it was the boss who did it. Certainly, the free-market bulls of the forum think that sort of thing is antiquated and reeks of socialism (which it does...the patron of the bunch saying no, take it easy until the arc and the cobbles, we've all earned our spots over 3 weeks, no let's be sensible...not a "free-market" mindset). However, as the money in the sport has changed, it may be that the aggression Vino showed on the last day becomes more and more common -- fighting out places on the last day for salary and publicity.

Please correct me politely and with ample bananas (as is your gracious and instructive habit) if I am getting doofus Tour history incorrect....

to answer this with any intelligence, i would need to know
the top 10-15 going into gc in the last ?? tours - and i don't.
but i'd have a hard time believing that there haven't been
some, maybe even many, that tried hard on the last day
to crack the top ten whilst sitting in 12th or so place.
attacking the mj is another matter altogether.
the way i size this up, vino, while going for the stage
win and accompanying time bonus, was simply dangling
off the front and held it. had another rider won and got
the twenty seconds without affecting a top ten gc bonus,
no one would even notice.
e-RICHIE©™®

[csb]

vino'ed

[champlemon]

So Vinoukorov is leaving T-Mobile... And he attacked Gerolsteiner... 4 of their riders agains him and he got the bonus seconds and the final stage... after having been a pain the a** for Lance, Jan and everyone else. He may be tactically inept... But I sure love the guy... especially after these seven <yawn> long years... Vino is the fan's friend...

[Russ]

This is a sign of good things to come.... IMO, we need hungry guys like Vino to make bike racing more interesting!

The freaking Tour was one of the most boring things to hear about this year and the Giro was not too far behind with Simoni's whining. If it's not because Savodeli and the South American climbers the Giro would have been another crappy race to watch....

I think Vino was fed up with the complacency of the other riders and did what he had to do....

I hope that if he is not racing for the "T" next year, he will be the team leader of a team that will support him 100%. I'd like to see someone like Bruneel or Saiz manage him. It will be really cool!

[Onno]

Thanks Dr. Doofus for the history (which rings true), and Champlemon for the pithy summation, which also strikes me as accurate. It's certainly true that the more the race is somehow dictated by unspoken rules or traditions that most fans don't know about or understand, the more boring it gets to watch. Whatever his motivations, Vino made things a lot more interesting.

Onno

[Tom]

Vino coached by Riis. Now that would be interesting.

[e-RICHIE]

Thanks Dr. Doofus for the history (which rings true), and Champlemon for the pithy summation, which also strikes me as accurate. It's certainly true that the more the race is somehow dictated by unspoken rules or traditions that most fans don't know about or understand, the more boring it gets to watch. Whatever his motivations, Vino made things a lot more interesting.
Onno

but back to the original point; vino didn't break
any unwritten rules when he won the field sprint.
(the first 43 riders got the same finish time).
yes? no?
e-RICHIE©™®

[coylifut]

This is a sign of good things to come.... IMO, we need hungry guys like Vino to make bike racing more interesting!

The freaking Tour was one of the most boring things to hear about this year and the Giro was not too far behind with Simoni's whining. If it's not because Savodeli and the South American climbers the Giro would have been another crappy race to watch....

I think Vino was fed up with the complacency of the other riders and did what he had to do....

I hope that if he is not racing for the "T" next year, he will be the team leader of a team that will support him 100%. I'd like to see someone like Bruneel or Saiz manage him. It will be really cool!

I thought he Giro was really entertaining this year. The sprinter stages foiled, Cooke going into the boards, the gravel climb....Maybe I'm easily entertained.

[jeffg]

but back to the original point; vino didn't break
any unwritten rules when he won the field sprint.
(the first 43 riders got the same finish time).
yes? no?
e-RICHIE©™®

Correct, I would say. If I have it in you to win the stage on the champs, then you should! Intermediate sprints for non-green-jersey contenders? Perhaps questionable. Stage wins are a whole different matter!

[ClutchCargo]

And as far as Vino goes, good on ya, mate! I like the way he rides. From what we've seen, anyone who wants to be somebody, other than Jan, is smart to get out of T-Mobile.

just ask Bobby Julich ... Cadel Evans ... Santi Botero ... the list goes on.

I also have to wonder how Erik Zabel feels about being part of the T-Mobile "family".

[JohnS]

just ask Bobby Julich ... Cadel Evans ... Santi Botero ... the list goes on.

I also have to wonder how Erik Zabel feels about being part of the T-Mobile "family".
sounds sorta like the USPS/disco family, doesn't it?

[ClutchCargo]

I'd like to see someone like Bruneel or Saiz manage him. It will be really cool!

with him, mis-manage is more like it.

[97CSI]

I also have to wonder how Erik Zabel feels about being part of the T-Mobile "family".Poor Erik. To add to his embarassment at missing the TdF he gets his butt kicked in the German championships by an 18-year-old. And then offers to help coach the kid and is told that 'he does not have the personality' for same. All-in-all, a bad year at T-Mobile.

[e-RICHIE]

snipped: All-in-all, a bad year at T-Mobile.

i don't think catherine z j is that hot either.
time for a hostile takeover. bananas.
e-RICHIE©™®

[Onno]

but back to the original point; vino didn't break
any unwritten rules when he won the field sprint.
(the first 43 riders got the same finish time).
yes? no?
e-RICHIE©™®

Beats me. This is part of the question that I was asking. But I sure hope there's no tradition against GC specialists winning the final sprint, and he showed terrific will, imagination and strength in doing so. Even though I'm not a huge fan of Vino, I thought his win yesterday was terrific. I agree with the poster above who said that the sprinters' teams should have kept the pace high enough in the end to prevent such attacks if they were really keen on winning. I can see, though, that cynics (in and outside of the peloton) might think he was just snatching at glory as a way of helping his contract negotiations. If so, well, more power to him. The idealist in me wishes that the riders and teams would keep all talk about contracts completely quiet until the race is over.

Onno

[e-RICHIE]

The idealist in me wishes that the riders and teams would keep all talk about contracts completely quiet until the race is over.
Onno


agreed.
pro cycling needs a union so that negotiation practices
can enter the 20th century. half-banana. it also needs
equivilant to a salary cap so that rich corporations can't
decide to buy a team for their own ego.

it either needs to stay an old-boys-network or switch
over to an accountable method of keeping the playing
field even.

hey - thanks for listening.
e-RICHIE©™®

[97CSI]

agreed.
pro cycling needs a union so that negotiation practices
can enter the 20th century. half-banana. it also needs
equivilant to a salary cap so that rich corporations can't
decide to buy a team for their own ego.

it either needs to stay an old-boys-network or switch
over to an accountable method of keeping the playing
field even.

hey - thanks for listening.
e-RICHIE©™®Sounds like there will be room for them in the AFL-CIO later today. And, they could get some good pointers on the salary-cap and other negotiating ploys from the NHL players union. :D

[e-RICHIE]

Sounds like there will be room for them in the AFL-CIO later today. And, they could get some good pointers on the salary-cap and other negotiating ploys from the NHL players union. :D


all kidding aside; with the way it is now,
the sport can easily considered to be dominated
by the teams with the money. look at the
contrast between the prize $ won by the top
three and last three teams in the tdf.
is this, er, fair?
e-RICHIE©™®

[Dr. Doofus]

ritchie --

1) going for the final sprint didn't break any unwritten rules

2) going for the intermediate sprint did - can't remember any top 10 gc rider doing that on the last day (though doof recalls PDM going to the front en masse in 88 for a few km, but then they quit...it wasn't serious, just for show)

[ClutchCargo]

sounds sorta like the USPS/disco family, doesn't it?

USPS/Discovery has, what, seven Tour championships, and a Vuelta and a Giro in recent years, and T Mobile has what? And there hasn't ever appeared to be much confusion in the Postal/Disco camp about which rider is the GC contender (in any of those races). On the contrary, Messrs. Salvodelli, Popovych, Hincapie and the rest have displayed no doubt as to the team's primary goal and, just as importantly, each rider's role on the team.

cheers, mate!
:beer:

[William]

Blah blah blah blah blah....

I'm going back to watching Curling! :banana:

http://www.ccsg.ch/alben/sm2005/DSC00812.jpg

William ;)

[e-RICHIE]

ritchie --

1) going for the final sprint didn't break any unwritten rules

2) going for the intermediate sprint did - can't remember any top 10 gc rider doing that on the last day (though doof recalls PDM going to the front en masse in 88 for a few km, but then they quit...it wasn't serious, just for show)


like i wrote, we need a tdf history maven to address this.
but, were vino/gerolsteiner sprinting in a green jersey
points sprint or in a time bonus sprint?
e-RICHIE©™®

[Dr. Doofus]

like i wrote, we need a tdf history maven to address this.
but, were vino/gerolsteiner sprinting in a green jersey
points sprint or in a time bonus sprint?
e-RICHIE©™®


the sprint at chatenay was a green jersey sprint that offered a time bonus, in addition to jersey points

[ClutchCargo]

all kidding aside; with the way it is now,
the sport can easily considered to be dominated
by the teams with the money. look at the
contrast between the prize $ won by the top
three and last three teams in the tdf.
is this, er, fair?
e-RICHIE©™®

"Let's see, now. Go out and fund a team with more dollars than any of my competition. Hire the best athletes money can buy. Get a top notch manager who knows strategy and is an excellent motivator. Then let the manager manage and the athletes perform, and stay out of the picture. I think that's it!! Naw, forget that last part."

--George Steinbrenner

:D

[e-RICHIE]

"Let's see, now. Go out and fund a team with more dollars than any of my competition. Hire the best athletes money can buy. Get a top notch manager who knows strategy and is an excellent motivator. Then let the manager manage and the athletes perform, and stay out of the picture. I think that's it!! Naw, forget that last part."

--George Steinbrenner

:D

megalomania or not, at least mlb operates within
a system that's agreed upon by those who participate.
the wind tunnel tests alone for a disco level team
is prolly more than euscatel's entire budget. well,
that may be a stretch, but you get my point, i hope.
e-RICHIE©™®

[97CSI]

all kidding aside; with the way it is now,
the sport can easily considered to be dominated
by the teams with the money. look at the
contrast between the prize $ won by the top
three and last three teams in the tdf.
is this, er, fair?
e-RICHIE©™®A problem in all major sports (which bicycling is in Europe). Like comparing the Yankees and the Twins. Big $$ vs small $$. Not sure if a union and/or a salary cap would work any better there than in BB or FB or, now, NHL (none of which do anything for me - I'll watch the SuperBowl if Dallas is in it, though). But, the TdF does help by inviting in at least three teams who probably shouldn't be there. And, without big $$ bicycling will never be anything in the U.S. Which probably means it has peaked. At least for now.

[e-RICHIE]

snipped: 1) But, the TdF does help by inviting in at least three teams who probably shouldn't be there. 2) And, without big $$ bicycling will never be anything in the U.S. Which probably means it has peaked. At least for now.


1) the tour is only one race in a feb-oct season. and the stdf
owns a few other properties. but for the most part, the uci
calandar is still the wild west of organization compared to
a north american ball league. (and i like it better that way).

2) cycling will never be "european" big outside of europe.

e-RICHIE©™®

[Dr. Doofus]

Ritchie --

1) Get Vino on your team

2) The jersey and bike will be a quantum leap forward for his fashion sense

[e-RICHIE]

Ritchie --

1) Get Vino on your team

2) The jersey and bike will be a quantum leap forward for his fashion sense


we're partial to vino.
seriously partial to vino...
e-RICHIE©™®

[Dr. Doofus]

if money is tight this season, maybe you could sign his twin?

[e-RICHIE]

if money is tight this season, maybe you could sign his twin?


bostondrunk?

[ClutchCargo]

megalomania or not, at least mlb operates within
a system that's agreed upon by those who participate.
the wind tunnel tests alone for a disco level team
is prolly more than euscatel's entire budget. well,
that may be a stretch, but you get my point, i hope.
e-RICHIE©™®

The truly sad thing is if in fact these two cyclists at the top of their game are actually motivated by the $27,000 difference between fifth and sixth place. I know that pro cyclists are compensated by contracts, appearance money, endorsements, etc., but their prize money is kind of ridiculously low in this day and age.
The winner's take this year is something like $515,000. Ben Crane (Ben Crane?) won $630,000 for winning the US Bank Milwaukee Open yesterday. The entire TdF purse was $3.85mm. The purse for the 84 Lumber Classic (yes, it's a classic!) is $4.4mm. Granted, pro golfers don't have guaranteed contracts, but really.
Guess it'll be that way until more fat CEOs would rather put on a pair of cycling shorts than their pink madras golf pants. [sigh]

[Dr. Doofus]

bostondrunk?

naw..the fast kid's boss, with an 80s wardrbe and spankin' new bleach blond crew-cut...close enough

[Russ]

I thought he Giro was really entertaining this year. The sprinter stages foiled, Cooke going into the boards, the gravel climb....Maybe I'm easily entertained.

Coy,

I meant to say the Giro in the crucial Mountain stages... I saw the gravel part, but I am not easily entertained by it. :eek:

The Giro is almost always a good race to watch because of the soap opera those Italians throw every year. With this I am refering to the issue with Bettini this year...

[e-RICHIE]

The truly sad thing is if in fact these two cyclists at the top of their game are actually motivated by the $27,000 difference between fifth and sixth place. I know that pro cyclists are compensated by contracts, appearance money, endorsements, etc., but their prize money is kind of ridiculously low in this day and age.
The winner's take this year is something like $515,000. Ben Crane (Ben Crane?) won $630,000 for winning the US Bank Milwaukee Open yesterday. The entire TdF purse was $3.85mm. The purse for the 84 Lumber Classic (yes, it's a classic!) is $4.4mm. Granted, pro golfers don't have guaranteed contracts, but really.
Guess it'll be that way until more fat CEOs would rather put on a pair of cycling shorts than their pink madras golf pants. [sigh]


i seriously doubt (that) they are; all booty gets split
prolly 30 ways when you factor in team/staff/staff's staff,
etc. these guys are on salary. i'd wager they don't even
look that closely at the prize list.
e-RICHIE©™®

[CNote]

Vino pulled Levi like 2 km up to the bonus sprint line and Levi still couldn't come around him. At the end of a 3-week race with two riders at basically the same time, that speaks volumes. Screw the unwritten rules.

[e-RICHIE]

Vino pulled Levi like 2 km up to the bonus sprint line and Levi still couldn't come around him. At the end of a 3-week race with two riders at basically the same time, that speaks volumes. Screw the unwritten rules.


yeah.
vino hung him out to dry like a pair of levis.
e-RICHIE©™®

[weisan]

Career Highlights
Winner Liege-Bastogne-Liege 2005
2nd Bayern-Rundfahrt 2005
stage win Dauphine Libere 2005
Winner Regio-Tour 2004
3 stage wins Paris-Nice 2004
3 stage wins Regio-Tour 2004
3rd place World's (ITT) 2004
3rd place Liège-Bastogne-Liège 2004
winner Paris–Nice 2003
stage win Paris-Nice 2003
winner Amstel Gold Race 2003
winner Tour de Suisse 2003
stage win Tour de Suisse 2003
3rd overall Tour de France 2003
stage win Tour de France 2003
stage win Tour de Suisse 2002
winner Paris-Nice 2002
stage win Paris-Nice 2002
2nd place Kazakhstan National Championships 2002
winner Deutschland-Tour 2001
stage win Deutschland-Tour 2001
stage win Tour de Suisse 2001
stage win Vuelta 2000
Olympic Silver Medallist (road racing) 2000
winner Tour of Valencia 1998
winner Dauphiné Libéré 1998

[keno]

I believe, subject to revision upon presentation of historically documented substantiation as contrasted with opinion, reasoned or otherwise, that these unwritten rules of which people speak did not come out of the blue. Most likely they devolved based upon the time-honored maxim "follow the money". Maybe not, but in any event I believe that they came from somewhere.

Oft times, the circumstances that supported the creation of such a rule change, yet the rule continues on, people having forgotten where it came from. What would be interesting to me, for one, would be the actual history behind these various unwritten rules. Once knowing the history, it would then be reasonalbe to draw conclusions as to whether they still make sense, or are, at least, somewhat reasonable.

The thing I find most odd about the vino issue is the comparison between the "rule" some say he violated and the questionable practice in football and basketball, in particular, of running up the score. What the particular TdF rule here seems to be is somewhat the obverse of running up the score, that is to say the rule is not to score.

Then, again, for some perhaps in bicycle racing the race is over before the fat lady sings.

BTW, for those who have read "Lance Armstrong's War", by Daniel Coyle, you may agree that it seems entirely predictgable that vino races the way he does based upon Coyle's description of vino and those of his ilk and where they came from. Coyle would say that vino simply doesn't give a *****.

keno

[andy mac]

i had never heard of 'running up the score' until i moved to the usa.

is it just a nice uncle sam thing? any other non americans on the forum??

doesn't matter if you 7 or 70, in australia we like to crush people.


from matt white interview at www.cyclingnews.com

Matt White (Cofidis) was happy to have finally started and finished a Tour. "Finally here hey, finally here," he said. "It's really, really great to be here. It is huge here on the Champs Elysees. I've done the Olympics and the other grand tours, but this is really special. One of the best bike riders in the world just won here, Vinokourov. He can win in the mountains, he can win on the flat and he is the most aggressive rider in the Tour de France. For me, He and Bettini are the two most complete bike riders on the planet.

"But Lance - wow. You can't compare eras and there is no doubt that Eddy Merckx is the greatest bike rider ever. But Lance is definitely the greatest Tour de France rider ever."

[e-RICHIE]

snipped: The thing I find most odd about the vino issue is the comparison between the "rule" some say he violated...


i have yet to read anyone mention an "unwritten rule"
that vino supposedly violated.

he won the field sprint ahead of 42 riders that were
given the same time.

why the fuss?

e-RICHIE©™®

[keno]

"convention" and "cheesy". When unwritten, what's the dif? And, BTW, I'm just curious and have no dog in this hunt. I enjoyed what vino did. I'm just trying to learn something here.

keno

[e-RICHIE]

"convention" and "cheesy". When unwritten, what's the dif? And, BTW, I'm just curious and have no dog in this hunt. I enjoyed what vino did. I'm just trying to learn something here.

keno


keno-issimo
who is that directed at?
e-RICHIE©™®

[Ray]

yeah.
vino hung him out to dry like a pair of levis.
e-RICHIE©™®
Not to mention another couple of his teammates too. Levi was the only one ultimately able to get on his wheel. And couldn't come around. I hope that the deal with the final sprint time bonuses was clear to the riders so Levi would have known he needed to control Vino in the final sprint. But whether it was clear or not, I don't think they could have done anything about it. So Vino deserves fifth about whichever way you look at it.

-Ray

[sevencyclist]

Unwritten rules are worth less than the cost of the paper they are written on.

I don't think moving from 6th to 5th was Vino's main objective. I think the honor of winning the stage at Paris is in itself a big prize.

[DrSpoke]

I have two thoughts:

The first is that ever since the mountain stage (not sure which one, thoug I think it was in the Pyrenees) in which the T-Mobile team chased down his attack that Vino was riding for himself. I believe that he felt abandoned by his team and, that he decided to switch teams next year and that from that point on we was riding alone.

The second is that though I'm not familiar with the rules of the tour that if the conditions are too dangerous for the GC riders that it would be too dangerous for the sprinters and stage winners.

That being said I think Vino should real spirit and was a big plus to the Tour. Also, that I had my doubts about Lance's condition going in. He answered those guestions on the first day and, in my opinion, won the tour on that day. He absolutely dominated. The best part was when he was left alone without any teamates in the mountains, surrounded by 3 T-Mobile riders and he made them look helpless. That team needs both a leader in the car and a leader on the road.

[e-RICHIE]

snipped: The first is that ever since the mountain stage (not sure which one, thoug I think it was in the Pyrenees) in which the T-Mobile team chased down his attack that Vino was riding for himself. I believe that he felt abandoned by his team and, that he decided to switch teams next year and that from that point on we was riding alone.


his team did not chase him down. he brought klodi and jan
bottles from the team car an handed them off at 10 or so
to go. while picking up the bottles from the team car, he was
directed to force the pace so as to benefit his two team mates
who were ahead of him on gc. he had already won the earlier
stage. he was directed to use his engine to drive the pace
until he blew.
e-RICHIE©™®

[e-RICHIE]

this text, from the jeff jones at cyclingnews.com
"...And while Vino's feat was impressive yesterday, he had help.
Credit Agricole shut down the chase in order to protect Hushovd's
jersey and Lotto bungled the leadout."

[Fixed]

Vino is not superhuman but he is close I think he follows directions well.He did help Jan in the Aussie Olympics his trade team mate.As far as 80's style goes well that is showing up now.I guess he is one wild and crazy guy.Cheers

[Dr. Doofus]

Unwritten rules worth less than the cost of the paper they are written on.

I don't think moving from 6th to 5th was Vino's main objective. I think the honor of winning the stage at Paris is in itself a big prize.

if vino hadn't wanted 5th

if finishing in the top 5 didn't mean a bigger salary next year

if the stage win was the only concern

vino wouldn't have made an organized move for the time bonus sprint halfway through the stage

vino wanted 5th -- the only way to get it was to take the intermediate sprint and take the stage

he did both

[shaq-d]

all kidding aside; with the way it is now,
the sport can easily considered to be dominated
by the teams with the money. look at the
contrast between the prize $ won by the top
three and last three teams in the tdf.
is this, er, fair?
e-RICHIE©™®

hey rich man, there aer a few exceptions rite..? last year velonews or something published CSC's budget and it was way below T-mobile and discovery if i remember...

csc's budget is probably higher now though with the ascension of basso, but still...

sd

[e-RICHIE]

hey rich man, there aer a few exceptions rite..? last year velonews or something published CSC's budget and it was way below T-mobile and discovery if i remember...

csc's budget is probably higher now though with the ascension of basso, but still...

sd


i guess i agree but i'm not
sure i get your point!

[GoJavs]

He along with guys like Oscar Pereiro made this race fun. He reminded me of how Laurent Jalabert rode in 1995 (and during his last TDF too) or how a certain young, cocky Texan rode that same year.

In fact, I came across a very telling Armstrong quote all the way back from 1993, off an old Samuel Abt book. This is Lance talking about Indurain's dominance:

"I tell you, it would be a great race if he wasn't in it. It would be much more exciting without him. It might even be better for the sport - a serious, serious race. But you can't blame the guy for that. He dominates..."

I guess Lance is heeding his own words now! :banana:

[Tmogul]

Who can argue that Vino had an incredible win on the last day of the tour. Its also impressive that Vino could basically tow Levi and his guys all the way to the intermediate sprint line and still get the bonus seconds.

HOWEVER......after seeing the stage I can certainly say that Levi got the rotten end off the deal. Paul and Phil kept explaining to us the officals had changed the rules for the day and that the GC positions were final once they started the finishing circuits due to the weather conditions. Levi also got this same message over the race radio.....

http://www.cyclingnews.com/road/2005/tour05/news/?id=/news/2005/jul05/jul26news

The rules were set but then changed after the race was over it seems. It doesn't matter if Vino was more deserving of the 5th position. I just think the officials messed up big time.

[jerk]

Who can argue that Vino had an incredible win on the last day of the tour. Its also impressive that Vino could basically tow Levi and his guys all the way to the intermediate sprint line and still get the bonus seconds.

HOWEVER......after seeing the stage I can certainly say that Levi got the rotten end off the deal. Paul and Phil kept explaining to us the officals had changed the rules for the day and that the GC positions were final once they started the finishing circuits due to the weather conditions. Levi also got this same message over the race radio.....

http://www.cyclingnews.com/road/2005/tour05/news/?id=/news/2005/jul05/jul26news

The rules were set but then changed after the race was over it seems. It doesn't matter if Vino was more deserving of the 5th position. I just think the officials messed up big time.

all the riders were to be given the same finishing time due to conditions. this has nothing to do with time bonuses resulting from intermediate sprints or stage wins which are subtracted from the finishing time.
jerk

[Climb01742]

there's a catch-22 with vino, i think...

it's his attacking style we like and admire, and that makes him exciting, and that gets him lots of tv time...

but it's a style that burns energy...a style that seems, inevitably, to lead to at least one bad day in the mountains, losing much time...

which knocks him out of GC contention...

which means to stay in GC contention he'd need to manage his energy expenditures more wisely, meaning ride more conservatively/boringly (see floyd and levi this year)...

which means he'd have to sacrifice the daring attacking style we all dig...and that gets him tv time, which pleases sponsors...i mean, levi got more screen time being in the specialized commercials than he did out on the course...

so what's vino to do...what's a sponsor supposed to pay him...as a daring stage winner and race animator...or as possible GC winner (which seems a stretch)...

call it vino-22. :D

[xcandrew]

ritchie --

1) going for the final sprint didn't break any unwritten rules

2) going for the intermediate sprint did - can't remember any top 10 gc rider doing that on the last day (though doof recalls PDM going to the front en masse in 88 for a few km, but then they quit...it wasn't serious, just for show)

Disagree. No unwritten rules were broken. Why do you think they offered bonus seconds on the intermediate sprint in addition to points? Green Jersey contenders don't care about bonus seconds at all, except perhaps early in the race when they might have a chance to nab the yellow jersey for a couple of days.

Also, if 'patrons' Hinault (won the last stage twice) and Merckx (won the last stage 4 times) can go for the final stage win, other GC contenders have every right to race them. The logic doesn't work if only Hinault can go for it, but not 2nd or 3rd on GC or anyone else... what, do you just do let him win without a fight?

The unwritten rules are not that mysterious, and I think people think that there are more unwritten rules than there actually are. The unwritten rules have to MAKE SENSE to the riders too! For example, "don't attack the yellow jersey on the last stage". Well, if it really were down to 2 seconds between first and second on the last stage (rather than 5th and 6th), you would have seen the same thing happen because the bonus seconds were up there for grabs. It has just never come down to the line like that. But, how about if Basso, lets say for the sake of argument that he was only 30 seconds back, were to attack Lance in Paris while he was drinking champagne, posing for photos on the bike, etc. early in the last stage before the real race started. That would break an unwritten rule that I just made up because OBVIOUSLY no one was racing yet. He would have to wait until things turned back to racing, say coming up the the first bonus sprint, to put in a challenge. If he were a bit further back, say a minute back like Ullrich in 2003, he wouldn't bother because it's pretty obvious that he would get shut down... and that would be the reason for not attacking, because it wouldn't work, not that it breaks an unwritten rule! If it's not going to work, why bother pissing people off? As for saving the race for the green jersey contenders, there is no such unwritten rule. The green jersey contenders and their teams have the man power to win - that's why they string out the field at the end of races - so if they don't, too bad.

[csb]

vino-22. :D

or

vino-911. word on the street says he does
a cruel stand-up routine, spares no one.

[Onno]

his team did not chase him down. he brought klodi and jan
bottles from the team car an handed them off at 10 or so
to go. while picking up the bottles from the team car, he was
directed to force the pace so as to benefit his two team mates
who were ahead of him on gc. he had already won the earlier
stage. he was directed to use his engine to drive the pace
until he blew.
e-RICHIE©™®



I've watched these few minutes of this stage about 5 times using Tivo. Obviously the camera is not on Vino all the time. This is what is shown: Vino is well behind the small group containing Armstrong, Basso, Kloden and Ullrich before the start of the final climb. Vino is shown picking up one bottle. Vino slowly claws himself back to the group just before the climb up AG3. He's in the group, at the back, for about a minute. He takes off with no one following him. He looks back and sees that no one is chasing and pushes harder. He gets about a 50 meter gap, maybe more. Kloden and Ullrich very quickly move to the front of the yellow jersey group and push hard until they catch Vino. They drive right past him without giving him a glance. The yellow jersey group drops Vino. Sherwin and Ligget call the T-Mobile antics pathetic.

I'm not sure what's going on here, but it's very hard to see this as team work, as Vino setting the pace for T-Mobile. Even if he was ordered to attack to soften up Armstrong, what sense was there in Kloden and Ullrich leading the pack back up to him? Why not wait for Armstrong or Basso to try to catch him?

Sorry for beating a very nearly dead horse (I can still feel the heartbeat, at least). But this was one of the really interesting moments in the Tour, like Vino's victory in the final stage. It's worth trying to figure out what actually happened, as opposed to simply accepting what the team director said.

Onno

[Climb01742]

based purely on what i saw on tv (which could be read many ways) at some point during the race, i think vino become persona non-grata on t-mobile. knowing he was going to leave the team...and some of his moves seemed to benefit him, not the team... the way i saw it, at the moment jan and klodi went after and past vino, they did not see him as a teammate...

[e-RICHIE]

Roy. Are you there?

[Roy E. Munson]

Don't get me started...

[e-RICHIE]

i implore you to get started.

[bostondrunk]

I've watched these few minutes of this stage about 5 times using Tivo. Obviously the camera is not on Vino all the time. This is what is shown: Vino is well behind the small group containing Armstrong, Basso, Kloden and Ullrich before the start of the final climb. Vino is shown picking up one bottle. Vino slowly claws himself back to the group just before the climb up AG3. He's in the group, at the back, for about a minute. He takes off with no one following him. He looks back and sees that no one is chasing and pushes harder. He gets about a 50 meter gap, maybe more. Kloden and Ullrich very quickly move to the front of the yellow jersey group and push hard until they catch Vino. They drive right past him without giving him a glance. The yellow jersey group drops Vino. Sherwin and Ligget call the T-Mobile antics pathetic.

I'm not sure what's going on here, but it's very hard to see this as team work, as Vino setting the pace for T-Mobile. Even if he was ordered to attack to soften up Armstrong, what sense was there in Kloden and Ullrich leading the pack back up to him? Why not wait for Armstrong or Basso to try to catch him?

Sorry for beating a very nearly dead horse (I can still feel the heartbeat, at least). But this was one of the really interesting moments in the Tour, like Vino's victory in the final stage. It's worth trying to figure out what actually happened, as opposed to simply accepting what the team director said.

Onno

I believe it was posted somewhere that his team told him to attack, no?

[e-RICHIE]

I believe it was posted somewhere that his team told him to attack, no?



yes. yes. yes.
his ds told him what the plan was.
he activated the plan.
he was in "rabbit" form.
it was a plan.

and as we spoke sat at the race,
if vino was out there freelancing,
no ds would ever give him a contract.
it's a team sport. he had 2 teammates
ahead on gc. he was there for them.

[Roy E. Munson]

Everything e-RICHIE said, and BD too.

[chrisroph]

e-richie: Salary cap, collective bargaining, health insurance, retirement benefits, rider's organization involvement with implementation of specific testing protocol, etc. can create a monster if the pendulum swings too far (eg major league baseball) but would provide some basic protections and future assurances for these great athletes.

Vino was awesome. Riding Gerolsteiner off his wheel on the intermediate sprint was world class riding, as was his move in the final sprint. This guy has power, balls, panache, and guts. And, what "unwritten rule" did he supposedly violate? He didn't attack the yellow jersey; he went for a time bonus, rode the guy who he was trying to climb over in his standings off his wheel and then won the stage. I thought it was a highlight of the tour.

[e-RICHIE]

e-richie: Salary cap, collective bargaining, health insurance, retirement benefits, rider's organization involvement with implementation of specific testing protocol, etc. can create a monster if the pendulum swings too far (eg major league baseball) but would provide some basic protections and future assurances for these great athletes.


are you okay with some big corp coming out,
writing a check, and all of the sudden having
a top heavy team by dint of their deep pockets?
i think it sullies the sport and keeps the field
uneven.

Vino was awesome. Riding Gerolsteiner off his wheel on the intermediate sprint was world class riding, as was his move in the final sprint. This guy has power, balls, panache, and guts. And, what "unwritten rule" did he supposedly violate? He didn't attack the yellow jersey; he went for a time bonus, rode the guy who he was trying to climb over in his standings off his wheel and then won the stage. I thought it was a highlight of the tour.

agreed. he violated no "unwritten rule".

[chrisroph]

e-richie--No, but isn't that to a great extent what we have now? I'd like to see some parity, but I'd also like to see things like retirement benefits, health insurance (think Lance with a new cancer diagnosis and no insurance), collective bargaining (review of new drug testing protocol), and a rider's organization assisting riders in battles with the powers that be (think Tyler).

[e-RICHIE]

snipped: health insurance (think Lance with a new cancer diagnosis and no insurance)...


i read where z had no team insurance on him when
he broke his leg at redlands 2? years ago. he paid
all his bills as a private citizen and not as an employee
of postal. they treated him as a sub contractor.

even within the structure of the most well funded
teams, there is room for improvement.

[Fixed]

Vino did something, he got all the experts talkin about him.How much do you think his value went up? Cheers

[William]

http://pitonak.sk/curling/liga3.jpg

[Onno]

whoa William, is that you throwing the stone? You are kicking butt!

Onno

[coylifut]

based purely on what i saw on tv (which could be read many ways) at some point during the race, i think vino become persona non-grata on t-mobile. knowing he was going to leave the team...and some of his moves seemed to benefit him, not the team... the way i saw it, at the moment jan and klodi went after and past vino, they did not see him as a teammate...

it appeared to me that Vino brought Jan and Kloden bottles and then went to the front to push the pace. it looked like he was being a team player to me.

[Bruce K]

Not sure if anyone mentioned or saw velonews, but Vino has signed with Liberty-Segouros.

That should make for some interesting competition!

BK

[e-RICHIE]

it appeared to me that Vino brought Jan and Kloden bottles and then went to the front to push the pace. it looked like he was being a team player to me.


thanksthanksthanksthanksthanksthanksthanksthanksth anksthanks
thanksthanksthanksthanksthanksthanksthanksthanksth anksthanks
thanksthanksthanksthanksthanksthanksthanksthanksth anksthanks
thanksthanksthanksthanksthanksthanksthanksthanksth anksthanks
thanksthanksthanksthanksthanksthanksthanksthanksth anksthanks
thanksthanksthanksthanksthanksthanksthanksthanksth anksthanks
thanksthanksthanksthanksthanksthanksthanksthanksth anksthanks
thanksthanksthanksthanksthanksthanksthanksthanksth anksthanks
thanksthanksthanksthanksthanksthanksthanksthanksth anksthanks
thanksthanksthanksthanksthanksthanksthanksthanksth anksthanks
thanksthanksthanksthanksthanksthanksthanksthanksth anksthanks
thanksthanksthanksthanksthanksthanksthanksthanksth anksthanks

[Climb01742]

it appeared to me that Vino brought Jan and Kloden bottles and then went to the front to push the pace. it looked like he was being a team player to me.

very willing to admit my reading of the situation could/is wrong. lord knows, i'm being out-voted. :D i did think, though, that it was telling that on sunday, as vino was fighting for that first sprint bonus, no t-mobile dudes were helping him. while 3 'steiner dudes were helping levi. maybe i'm reading too much into it, but maybe t-mobile isn't throwing vino a farewell party. :beer:

[e-RICHIE]

very willing to admit my reading of the situation could/is wrong. lord knows, i'm being out-voted.

it's not a vote; it's fact. haven't you read the pasted
texts from the various online race coverages?


i did think, though, that it was telling that on sunday, as vino was fighting for that first sprint bonus, no t-mobile dudes were helping him. while 3 'steiner dudes were helping levi. maybe i'm reading too much into it, but maybe t-mobile isn't throwing vino a farewell party.

haven't you followed the race reports? he didn't need his
team for those sprints. thor h's team was helping vino
get the points/stage victory by simply defending the
green jersey and not dragging mcewen and o'grady
up to vino.

[coylifut]

this pasted from Pez

Speaking with L'Equipe, Vino tells a much different story: "At the Start of the Tour, I hadn't decided yet, I wanted to see first how the race turned out. I was actually convinced, that the cooperation between two or three captains would be possible."

"When I saw Kloeden pulling me back when I attacked, and sometimes even Jan, it was clear to me that it just isn't possible. For me, it's an unbreakable rule, that one does not chase down his own teammates, but in this Tour, [chasing down one's own teammates] almost became the rule.

Vinokourov was quick to note, however, that he is not bitter: "My relationships with Jan hasn't changed, we are still friends. Our goals just do not go together though: we are almost the same age and do not have too many years ahead of us in which we can hope for a Tour victory."

[Onno]

Race reports aren't facts. I think Vino's own words are more reliable, and his own explanation accords pretty well with what we saw. I'm impressed that Vino has little rancor now.

Onno

[JohnS]

Race reports aren't facts. I think Vino's own words are more reliable, and his own explanation accords pretty well with what we saw. I'm impressed that Vino has little rancor now.

Onno
And the winner is, in a 10 round dragout fight...ONNO!!!!!! :argue:

[e-RICHIE]

here is some more text to ponder:
"Vinokourov, who finished third overall in 2003, had been expecting more from this year's Tour but he complained that neither Ullrich nor top-ranked Andréas Klöden gave him any backing when he attacked Lance Armstrong as the American went on to win a record seventh time. It was that frustration, he said, that led him to sign with the Spanish team, run by the venerable Manolo Sáiz."
fr vn.com

well two things: 1) i cannot find the link that explains,
in godefroot's words, that vino was directed to force
the pace on the penultimate stage 14 climb and that,
in fact, it wasn't an attack and he wasn't be chased...
and 2) if vino "complained that neither (see above)...",
it's counterintuitive to how a team operates; he had
two teammates ahead of him on gc. his job, the one
he is paid to do, is to ride in their support in stages
where it is deemed necessary.


oh, and ps.
this, from cyclingnews.com stage 14 wrapup.
form your own opinion:


Kummer: We knew what we were doing
T-Mobile directeur sportif Mario Kummer has played down suggestions that the team made a mess of their tactics yesterday. When asked why Klöden and Ullrich chased Vinokourov down when he attacked, he explained what was behind the reasoning. "The situation was that nobody reacted behind so we decided to put on the tempo. That's how this situation came about."

Viewers and commentators were perplexed by the sight of his own team bringing Vino back on both the Port-de-Pailhères and the final climb of Ax 3 Domaines. Kummer justified it by saying he was on an off day. "Vino's performances were excellent before, but he didn't have the legs like, say, at the Galibier, where he had a super day. As the others didn't react, we had to. Alexandre was out to tickle the others a bit, but unfortunately it didn't work."

Today's plan is to be aggressive again. "The riders are feeling good this morning. We'll see how it goes later on on the road. It will be crucial to attack at the right time today, as it's a long and hard stage. If you go too early, you might not have the breath to finish."

Will you wait until the final climb? "We'll see"

Thanks to Jeff Jones for sending me the link to text.

[JohnS]

I know I'm just an "amateur", but if your guy attacks and nobody follows, why wouldn't you just let him go and try to get a stage win?

[e-RICHIE]

I know I'm just an "amateur", but if your guy attacks and nobody follows, why wouldn't you just let him go and try to get a stage win?

here is my pov.
it's a team sport. it's a team event (helloooooooooo...
has anyone noticed tmo won the team classification?
well, i hope they did, so i don't have to retract this),
and vino had 2 teammates ahead of him on gc. he
had won the prior stage and was, er, in service on stage
14 to his gc mates. he had been dropped a couple of
times already and took godefroot's directive to 1) bring
the bottles to jan and klodi and 2) force the pace and
wring out what's left in the legs from the effort on the
prior day.
afaik, no one is out there freelancing as in, the team
ds told me to do this but i'm gonna do that. ergo,
i don't believe he was actually attacking (esp after
being dropped several times, i do think he earlier
stage win was great and it had to sap some strength,
and i don't think jan and klodi were "chasing their
teammate" in the literal sense.
heck - the entire episode lasted less than a minute's
tv time if i'm not mistaken.
does anyone want to go throw a few back?

[Dr. Doofus]

eight pages about a rooskie with bad hair

[JohnS]

eight pages about a rooskie with bad hair
Calling Vino a "rooskie" to his face is a good way to end up looking up at him. It's akin to calling an Irishman an Englishman. There was (is) great animosity towards the Russians by the people they subjugated. I know, I'm of Ukrainian descent.

[e-RICHIE]

Calling Vino a "rooskie" to his face is a good way to end up looking up at him...


not another 10 rounds, otay?
bananas.

[Dr. Doofus]

Calling Vino a "rooskie" to his face is a good way to end up looking up at him. It's akin to calling an Irishman an Englishman. There was (is) great animosity towards the Russians by the people they subjugated. I know, I'm of Ukrainian descent.


doof knows well the long history of tension between those ethnically "native" to the culture of rus and the ukranians, latvians, poles, estonians, lithuanians, finns, uzbeks, kazakhs, tatars, cossacks (of all regions...the word simply meant "free man" and as you well know there were cossacks all over) bashkirs, turks, armenians, jews, germans (who settled in the volga and crimea in various waves from the 14th century through the edict of 1804), etc., etc..

however, vino, like kivilev, is ethnically russian and a descendent of those sent to settle and russify this particular central asian bit of steppeland, although he is politically a kazakh...this is all silly (as was doof's original "rooskie" reference, if you missed the comic tone) unless you have an axe to grind and wish to get into several hundred years of blood feuds....

[Dr. Doofus]

what's kazakh for "banana?"

[JohnS]

So what did you think of Taras Bulba? We used to kid my brother that he was lucky our dad didn't shoot him for marrying a Polish girl. :D

[Dr. Doofus]

doof needs to read that one!


(but he did finally get around to watching andrei rubilev and solaris back in june)

[zeroking17]

[QUOTE=(but he did finally get around to watching andrei rubilev and solaris back in june)[/QUOTE]

And Tarkovsky took no team orders from Germans.

[slowgoing]

Vino reminds me of LA before his diagnosis.

I'd love to see him riding with strategy and a great team of domestiques.

[BBB]

Except that LA never got with a bull's roar of the podium pre-cancer.

Vino rode quite well in the '03 TdF in so far as his attacks were well timed and were not necessarily random. He just ran out of juice in the final mountain stage of that race, which may well have been a result of his attack the day before or a culimination of his attacking riding throughout the race.

Not losing a huge chunk of time in the first mountain stage and/or being the sole team leader (assuming Heras or Beloki are not up to it) may change his style of riding a little.

[Climb01742]

this pasted from Pez

Speaking with L'Equipe, Vino tells a much different story: "At the Start of the Tour, I hadn't decided yet, I wanted to see first how the race turned out. I was actually convinced, that the cooperation between two or three captains would be possible."

"When I saw Kloeden pulling me back when I attacked, and sometimes even Jan, it was clear to me that it just isn't possible. For me, it's an unbreakable rule, that one does not chase down his own teammates, but in this Tour, [chasing down one's own teammates] almost became the rule.

Vinokourov was quick to note, however, that he is not bitter: "My relationships with Jan hasn't changed, we are still friends. Our goals just do not go together though: we are almost the same age and do not have too many years ahead of us in which we can hope for a Tour victory."

so richie, things may not be quite as clear cut as you too-smugly suggested. i guess vino saw things differently than you did. my god, vino's nerve. no bananas.

i think your reply to one of my post's was too-smug by at least half. you wrote:

it's not a vote; it's fact. haven't you read the pasted
texts from the various online race coverages?


Quote:
Originally Posted by Climb01742
i did think, though, that it was telling that on sunday, as vino was fighting for that first sprint bonus, no t-mobile dudes were helping him. while 3 'steiner dudes were helping levi. maybe i'm reading too much into it, but maybe t-mobile isn't throwing vino a farewell party.


haven't you followed the race reports? he didn't need his
team for those sprints. thor h's team was helping vino
get the points/stage victory by simply defending the
green jersey and not dragging mcewen and o'grady
up to vino.

yes, richie, i read the reports and followed the tour. opinions can vary, don't you think? smugness is not an attractive trait in anyone. even a living legend.

[flydhest]

Couldn't resist logging on. The coverage here in Europe is more extensive--lots of newspapers as well as lots of different tv coverage. When we were in France during the Tour, there were interviews with t-mobile boys. Kloden said he would never, ever work for Vinokourov. The discord among t-mobile riders was a consistent theme, the surprise was how much personal affection there seemed to be between Vino and Jan. Each said, at different times, that something like a bike race wouldn't destroy their friendship, a view, that from my perspective, speaks volumes about the team management.

[William]

Couldn't resist logging on. The coverage here in Europe is more extensive--lots of newspapers as well as lots of different tv coverage. .

Mrs. William says that even in Taiwan, Lance & the Tour made front page news. In the U.S.......old Oprah re-runs. :rolleyes:


William

[dave thompson]

I dunno, the Tour and Lance made the front page, with color photos, in our local rag and USA Today.

[fiamme red]

no bananas.
Yes! We have no bananas,
We have no bananas today.
We've stringbeans, and onions,
Cabbages and scallions
And all kind of fruit, and say,
We have an old fashioned tomato
Long Island potato,
But yes! We have no bananas,
We have no bananas today!

[jerk]

the jerk will weigh in on this,

vino didn't need help for those final sprints. he had all the sprinter teams around him and none of the zabel train was there anyway. plus vino is the type of sneaky, stylin' rider who works using attacks and early sprints and no lead-out would really help there.....

vino and ulli are pals and the later owes the former big time. in any event, regardless of the lack of love lost between kloeden and vino, the fact does remain that t-mobile's every action was directed from the car and the race radio....vino's pace was matched by his teammates when he started to fade, they didn't attack him back. the jerk has raced with plenty of people he hated...and that probably hated him. but guess what? without the three muskateer b.s. you don't get paid. (team classifcation, stage wins, bonuses form the team all equal big bucks.)

jerk

[Onno]

the fact does remain that t-mobile's every action was directed from the car and the race radio....vino's pace was matched by his teammates when he started to fade, they didn't attack him back. jerk

Hmmm. The Jerk and e-Richie both take T-Mobile's management's word over what Vino himself says about being attacked by his own team. Twins are cool! :D

Here's my version of the transcript of TM radio (Ludwig): :banana: :banana:

Saturday, July 16 7 km from AG3:

15:34:06 Ja, come on Vino. Fastuh. Ve need you to catch duh groop. Ve must put the huht on dat Lance guy. Oh, and please could you pick up de bottles for Ulle and Klode?

15:35:30 Ja, good boy Vino. Please get your breaths. Relaaacks.

15:36:20 OK. Vino. Go. Fly like duh vind!

15:36:35 OK, Ulle and Klode, Go catch that Khazaki dood.

15:37:00 OK, Ulle and Klode, drop dat Vino guy like a hot tuuurd.

15:37:30 OK Vino. Good job. You are dropped again! You can relacks.

15:37:35 Greaaat job TM! Ve really got that Lance dood by the ball now. He looks very confuuuzed.

15:38:00 Hey Vino. You vant to talk contract now?

15:38:30 Vino?.... Vino?.....

:beer: :beer:

Onno

[e-RICHIE]

serenity now

[William]

serenity now
That doesn't work you know.

William ;)

[Climb01742]

serenity now

agree. i'm as guilty as anyone of forgetting...it's just about bikes. mea culpa.

[e-RICHIE]

ok
all is now forgiven.
e-LIVINGLEGEND©™®

bananas

[Dr. Doofus]

thought I'd forward this e-mail to you guys:


<< friend doof --

this is me confusing what they talk about on serotta board, more than what walter told me each day in france. klodi likes you, he said. and two days later no klodi says you can't borrow the lawn mower when we get back. then klodi says thank you for good work and here is some kummel but you can't drink it in season. then no klodi wants the kummel back for fashion model and he says you not invited to big after-tour party at wienerwald. how can you ride with teammate bad as this? I don't know.

your serotta pals much me confuse to. they are all smart like old club mates in kazakhstan who now hang out outside the lada factory we make pottery there now can shino come? he would have good wage and maybe bride. my uncle says he will see. and why does RITCHIE-E not get my frame to me fast like hour record?

my new manolo friend says hi I think, his mouth is very full.

thanks for the english book and members only jackets! I think girls will score for me in carolina soon!

best

vino>>

[Climb01742]

ok
all is now forgiven.
e-LIVINGLEGEND©™®

bananas

richie, we're both guilty of getting carried away. bananas

[e-RICHIE]

i acted like a sunday driver.
my bad!

[David Kirk]

i acted like a sunday driver.
my bad!

dude.....like it's wednesday!?

Dave

[e-RICHIE]

dude.....like it's wednesday!?

Dave


real racers live in a state of arrested development.

[97CSI]

Now we know where that three-year delivery comes from. :D

[Russ]

....My wishes were granted :D :D :D

....I'd like to see someone like Bruneel or Saiz manage him. It will be really cool!
Vino to Liberty Seguros:
http://www.eurosport.com/home/pages/v4/l0/s18/sport_lng0_spo18_sto746339.shtml

[champlemon]

....My wishes were granted :D :D :D
Vino to Liberty Seguros:
http://www.eurosport.com/home/pages/v4/l0/s18/sport_lng0_spo18_sto746339.shtml

Vino is a great match with Liberty Seguros and D.S. Manolo Saiz... who directed a fighting rider like Laurent Jalabert for many years at ONCE. I like it!