Classy Jan

[jeffg]

From Jan's website (my quick and dirty translation):

... Of course, we all came here, myself included, to finish in yellow. On the one hand it is disappointing that this did not work out. On the other hand, we can be proud of how the team fought in this year's tour.

And I am also somewhat proud of myself. It is something special to finish in Paris and be on the podium after the crashes I had. I do not believe, however, that I would have been able to beat Lance even if I had not crashed. He is simply too strong, and one must acknowledge this.

With his retirement one of the greatest athletes of all time is leaving the cycling stage. Through his physical and mental strength, his ambition and force of will, nobody could hold a candle to him over the course of seven years -- myself included.

He told me he is going to put his bike the corner for a while and then consider what he will do next. I am convinced, however, that we will hear from him soon.

Who knows, perhaps he will say a bit more tomorrow. He has invited me to a victory and retirement party in Paris, which really pleases me. But I also want to say here: Congratulations Lance and all the best!

[Climb01742]

as a sportsman, some of his decisions could be debated, but as a human being, he is, and has always been, pure class. he's power on the bike, and grace off it. had a funny thought...with all the changes happening at t-mobile, what if, over the winter, he transferred to discovery...then trained with lance's advice, raced with johan's guidance, and was supported by disco's riders and structure...some combo, uh?

[Kevan]

and as young as he started out, it must have been extremely difficult to come to terms with always being second best. His off the bike antics showed us his vulnerable side of being human, but it's his sheer power and grace on a bike, and the respect he's shown his main rival that presents us the super-human.

[neverraced]

[QUOTE=Climb01742as a human being, he is, and has always been, pure class. he's power on the bike, and grace off it. [/QUOTE]

You might want to talk to his former girlfriend.

[97CSI]

Think one of Jan's faults and the reason he didn't beat Lance is that Jan is a 'nice' person and likes Lance and looks up to him a bit. Makes it difficult to do what is necessary mentally to compete against Lance. Jan needed to 'hate' (if only in racing terms) Lance to beat him. Don't think Basso will have a walk in the park next year.

Was interesting to hear LA state that Basso was one of his best friends in the peloton. I wonder if he misspoke and meant Jan?

[93legendti]

as a sportsman, some of his decisions could be debated, but as a human being, he is, and has always been, pure class. he's power on the bike, and grace off it. had a funny thought...with all the changes happening at t-mobile, what if, over the winter, he transferred to discovery...then trained with lance's advice, raced with johan's guidance, and was supported by disco's riders and structure...some combo, uh?

Let's not get too crzy, Jan's ectasy and hit and run accident were not examples of 100% pure class. That being said, this Tour was Jan's finset, reaching the podium after 2 hard crashes that would have sent most riders to retire from the race.

[Climb01742]

i was talking about his class as an athlete. agree that his personal life isn't flawless, but then whose is? but as an athlete, he's handled frustration with more class than say kenny rogers...

[David Kirk]

I think Jan is a true champion. I wish his Tour win was mentioned half as much as his list of seconds. His only curse was being born in Armstrong's time.

As for the bad things he's done.............have you ever been 23 years old? Now picture being in your 20's with more money than you can count. I think he handled I better than most. Better than I would have.

Being human is tough.

Dave

[musgravecycles]

what Dave said...

[Kevan]

and being less than classy myself... I thought Lance's farewell podium speech was horrible.

[GoJavs]

Let's not get too crzy, Jan's ectasy and hit and run accident were not examples of 100% pure class. That being said, this Tour was Jan's finset, reaching the podium after 2 hard crashes that would have sent most riders to retire from the race.

--

Easy there legend, who's the guy who divorced the woman that stuck by him during the hard times? Oh, and he left her with three young kids to boot!

BTW - Jan's finest? Go back and look at 1997.

[BdaGhisallo]

Also consider that Jan's formative wall were all behind the Berlin Wall. To come from that background and be thrust into the spotlight and have all the fruits of capitalism's reward system thrown at you and handlie it as well as he has, even with his hiccups, is class.

Look how many western kids who have grown up knowing all about the wealth and prosperity of capitalism and can't handle it with grace when they strike gold, so to speak. Compare him with Eugeni Berzin who flashed brilliantly in 94-96 and then faded, done in by the distraction of his fame and rewards.

[Dekonick]

I think Jan is a true champion. I wish his Tour win was mentioned half as much as his list of seconds. His only curse was being born in Armstrong's time.

As for the bad things he's done.............have you ever been 23 years old? Now picture being in your 20's with more money than you can count. I think he handled I better than most. Better than I would have.

Being human is tough.

Dave

Yeah - what Dave said.

I have to agree with Kev about LA's speech; aside from 'Vive le Tour' is was not a great speech.

Jan is probably my favorite rider in the peleton - just a nice guy. No one is perfect - but I would invite Jan over to have a beer and a chat anytime. (not that he would come but...)

Indurain still holds as one of the class acts in cycling (at least as far as I am concerned) and Jan is up there with him.

Next year should have some interesting races! Let the games begin!

**

Did anyone let Levi et al know that the time bonuses were going to count after all? Nice that Vino won but unfair to change rules mid stream isnt it?

He did deserve the stage tho. :D

now the fun begins...gotta burn over 300MB's of TDF mpeg's to DVD... ouch...

[97CSI]

--Easy there legend, who's the guy who divorced the woman that stuck by him during the hard times? Oh, and he left her with three young kids to boot!

BTW - Jan's finest? Go back and look at 1997.Seems your statements have a "spin" on them. Their divorce was by mutual consent and we don't know who ask whom for what. And left her with three small kids? Seems to me that those small kids are with Dad as we write/read. And, who is giving up his career to be with them? Life isn't perfect, especially in a fish-bowl. But, they didn't spend any time pointing fingers at one another (probably too much money at stake for both of them).

[GoJavs]

Yes, certainly your response is 'spin' free! ;) Who's giving up 'his' career to be with them? That's a good one! Lance is too proud to lose and knows that every year that passes he IS more likely to lose.

No-one will know what happened in the Armstrong household for sure. Yet, some people in this board seem to know enough about Ullrich's private life to throw shots at him.....

Just trying to keep it even.

BTW - last year, when LA broke the record, the kids were NOT there! :)

[neverraced]

Think one of Jan's faults and the reason he didn't beat Lance is that Jan is a 'nice' person and likes Lance and looks up to him a bit. Makes it difficult to do what is necessary mentally to compete against Lance. Jan needed to 'hate' (if only in racing terms) Lance to beat him. Don't think Basso will have a walk in the park next year.

Was interesting to hear LA state that Basso was one of his best friends in the peloton. I wonder if he misspoke and meant Jan?

Ullrich loves Lance. Look at him any year he's on the podium with Armstrong--he's tickled pink to be that close to him. For his part, Armstrong hates Ullrich, and that hatred has been a huge motivating force for Armstrong. Hates him more than that Italian he wanted to kill last year.

Read Henry IV Part One. It's Armstrong and Ullrich, except in real life Hotspur wins the battle.

[GoJavs]

I think you are on to something on the having to 'hate' to win. Here's a quote I came across the other day from a Cycle Sport (December 2003) article by Jonathan Vaughters. It talks about how things changed when the Bruyneel/Armstrong administration took over USPS:

"I wasn't the most readily-accepted guy in the new USPS team with Johan Bruyneel at the helm. The mentality of the team was much less friendly, and much more oriented to winning 'no matter what' than it had been. It reminded me of the high school football team that went around beating up little kids. It certainly lost its appeal to me"

Now, before you trash the source (Vaughters) as flaky or whatever, just put that in perspective when you consider the demeanor of many of the ex-Posties: Livingstone, Zabrieskie, Vaughters, Heras, Landis, Hamilton, Leipheimer.

Certainly all have reputations as 'nice' guys. Well, you know what they say about 'nice guys'...

[97CSI]

Yes, certainly your response is 'spin' free! ;) Just trying to keep it even. BTW - last year, when LA broke the record, the kids were NOT there! :)

The only part of your posts that are not 'spun' is the BTW statement. And Jan's a weinie.

Just trolling, of course. Jan is obviously one of the top few road racers in the world. And seems to have feet of clay, as do we all.

Seriously, When they aren't actually on the road JU and LA state that they have a high level of friendship and mutual admiration. Why not take that at face value? I do. Certainly appeared that when when LA and JU were talking immediately before the awards presentations. Difference is their attitude on the road, IMHO.

As far as what did and does go on within the LA household.......who knows? Certainly not me. Until they tell us, is only a guess on all our parts.

[shaq-d]

The only part of your posts that are not 'spun' is the BTW statement. And Jan's a weinie.

Just trolling, of course. Jan is obviously one of the top few road racers in the world. And seems to have feet of clay, as do we all.

Seriously, When they aren't actually on the road JU and LA state that they have a high level of friendship and mutual admiration. Why not take that at face value? I do. Certainly appeared that when when LA and JU were talking immediately before the awards presentations. Difference is their attitude on the road, IMHO.\

with all the "Just trollings" and "seriously", i can't tell what's a joke and what's serious in ur post. someone translate, please. seriously.
no, seriously.
just trolling.
seriously.

sd

[97CSI]

Here...let me help.

"Jan's a weinie." A troll. Jan is obviously not a weinie.

"Jan is obviously one of the top few road racers in the world. And seems to have feet of clay, as do we all." Serious.

"Seriously, When they aren't actually on the road JU and LA state that they have a high level of friendship and mutual admiration. Why not take that at face value? I do. Certainly appeared that when when LA and JU were talking immediately before the awards presentations. Difference is their attitude on the road, IMHO." All serious.

That better?

[William]

I was talking to Mrs. William a while ago who is currently in Taipei. She had caught a japanese show running a segment about "John ullric-san". obviously they had trouble prouncing it. Sounded like a hoot to watch. :)

William

[BumbleBeeDave]

. . . to win and be a great champion. But starting today, Lance is not going to be spending the rest of his life on a bike. He will be in the real world, having to win by interacting with regular people, with all the compromising and back-slapping and sensitivity that demands to be successful. IMHO, LA has shown he is not necessarily the greatest at doing those things. In real life, you can’t simply ride away from someone or fire them from the team if they don’t happen to meet all your expectations.

Jan, on the other hand, has shown himself to not only be a champion on the bike, but also to be--from all I have seen--a classy, friendly, and self-effacing guy in real life who is willing to admit his mistakes and then move on as best he can. And that’s whether those mistakes involve popping pills in a nightclub, wrecking his Porsche and losing his license (by backing over a bike rack, no less!), or by having a child with his partner, then (I guess) realizing it ain’t gonna work and moving on.

I would far, FAR rather be remembered for being a great champion and a nice guy (Jan) than be remembered for being the GREATEST champion who was also a difficult-to-work-with, difficult-to-live-with SOB (Lance).

BBDave

[William]

. . . to win and be a great champion. But starting today, Lance is not going to be spending the rest of his life on a bike. He will be in the real world, having to win by interacting with regular people, with all the compromising and back-slapping and sensitivity that demands to be successful. IMHO, LA has shown he is not necessarily the greatest at doing those things. In real life, you can’t simply ride away from someone or fire them from the team if they don’t happen to meet all your expectations.

Jan, on the other hand, has shown himself to not only be a champion on the bike, but also to be--from all I have seen--a classy, friendly, and self-effacing guy in real life who is willing to admit his mistakes and then move on as best he can. And that’s whether those mistakes involve popping pills in a nightclub, wrecking his Porsche and losing his license (by backing over a bike rack, no less!), or by having a child with his partner, then (I guess) realizing it ain’t gonna work and moving on.

I would far, FAR rather be remembered for being a great champion and a nice guy (Jan) than be remembered for being the GREATEST champion who was also a difficult-to-work-with, difficult-to-live-with SOB (Lance).

BBDave

Ok BBDave, stop beating around the bush.
Tell us how you REALLY feel.


William ;)

[93legendti]

. . . to win and be a great champion. But starting today, Lance is not going to be spending the rest of his life on a bike. He will be in the real world, having to win by interacting with regular people, with all the compromising and back-slapping and sensitivity that demands to be successful. IMHO, LA has shown he is not necessarily the greatest at doing those things. In real life, you can’t simply ride away from someone or fire them from the team if they don’t happen to meet all your expectations.

Jan, on the other hand, has shown himself to not only be a champion on the bike, but also to be--from all I have seen--a classy, friendly, and self-effacing guy in real life who is willing to admit his mistakes and then move on as best he can. And that’s whether those mistakes involve popping pills in a nightclub, wrecking his Porsche and losing his license (by backing over a bike rack, no less!), or by having a child with his partner, then (I guess) realizing it ain’t gonna work and moving on.

I would far, FAR rather be remembered for being a great champion and a nice guy (Jan) than be remembered for being the GREATEST champion who was also a difficult-to-work-with, difficult-to-live-with SOB (Lance).

BBDave

Oy...can please you give me the quote(s) of who said Lance was: a "difficult-to-work-with, difficult-to-live-with SOB"?

I thought the "difficult-to-work-with, difficult-to-live-with SOB" usually gets cut loose from his team like Jan did in 2002... :)

[dirtdigger88]

. . . to win and be a great champion. But starting today, Lance is not going to be spending the rest of his life on a bike. He will be in the real world, having to win by interacting with regular people, with all the compromising and back-slapping and sensitivity that demands to be successful. IMHO, LA has shown he is not necessarily the greatest at doing those things. In real life, you can’t simply ride away from someone or fire them from the team if they don’t happen to meet all your expectations.

Jan, on the other hand, has shown himself to not only be a champion on the bike, but also to be--from all I have seen--a classy, friendly, and self-effacing guy in real life who is willing to admit his mistakes and then move on as best he can. And that’s whether those mistakes involve popping pills in a nightclub, wrecking his Porsche and losing his license (by backing over a bike rack, no less!), or by having a child with his partner, then (I guess) realizing it ain’t gonna work and moving on.

I would far, FAR rather be remembered for being a great champion and a nice guy (Jan) than be remembered for being the GREATEST champion who was also a difficult-to-work-with, difficult-to-live-with SOB (Lance).

BBDave

hey look everybody- Dave back!!!!

Jason

[Brons2]

--

Easy there legend, who's the guy who divorced the woman that stuck by him during the hard times? Oh, and he left her with three young kids to boot!

BTW - Jan's finest? Go back and look at 1997.

Give me a break. He divorced the woman that was whining non-stop about having to spend so much time in places other than home because of his training and race schedule? Talk about biting the hand that feeds you.

Oh and, she was WELL taken care of in the divorce. You should come and see her lakehouse here.

[Litespeeder]

and as young as he started out, it must have been extremely difficult to come to terms with always being second best. His off the bike antics showed us his vulnerable side of being human, but it's his sheer power and grace on a bike, and the respect he's shown his main rival that presents us the super-human.


Jan has won Olympic Gold, the TDF, the TD Suisse and numerous other tours. He is NOT second best. Jan is as good as it gets when it comes to cycling. True that he hasn't won the TDF as many times as Lance has but IMO that doesn't detract from his accomplishments. Jan has won at every level of competition including the Olympics. We Americans see the TDF as the be all and end all of professional cycling. But nothing could be further from the truth.

Jan competes year round while Lance focuses on a single cycling event throughout the entire year. It's like allowing to Yankees to skip the season and practice for the playoffs throughout the entire year, and knowing which teams they will be playing against in the playoffs.

I would like to see the riders go through some kind of qualifying races on order to be selected to race in the TDF. To just sit on the sidelines and prepare for a single race throughout the entire year seems somewhat disingenuous to me.

I do see Lance as the best of the best cyclists in the world. But I also put Jan and Cipollini in that category as well.

:bike:

[93legendti]

Jan has won Olympic Gold, the TDF, the TD Suisse and numerous other tours. He is NOT second best. Jan is as good as it gets when it comes to cycling. True that he hasn't won the TDF as many times as Lance has but IMO that doesn't detract from his accomplishments. Jan has won at every level of competition including the Olympics. We Americans see the TDF as the be all and end all of professional cycling. But nothing could be further from the truth.

Jan competes year round while Lance focuses on a single cycling event throughout the entire year. It's like allowing to Yankees to skip the season and practice for the playoffs throughout the entire year, and knowing which teams they will be playing against in the playoffs.

I would like to see the riders go through some kind of qualifying races on order to be selected to race in the TDF. To just sit on the sidelines and prepare for a single race throughout the entire year seems somewhat disingenuous to me.

I do see Lance as the best of the best cyclists in the world. But I also put Jan and Cipollini in that category as well.

:bike:

What's he done since winning Olympic medals in 2000? For a guy who gets paid a lot of money, winning 1 TdF stage in 2003, the Tour de Suise and some smaller races doesn't exactly equal "as good as it gets". Frankly, for what he's been paid since 2001, his results have not been great...which is why his DS has criticized him the last 2 years.

[BBB]

How about:

German Road Champion 2001, 2nd TDF 2001, World Time Trial Champion 2001, 2nd TdF including one stage 2003, 1st Tour de Suisse including two stages 2004, 4th TdF 2004, 3rd Tour de Suisse including one stage 2005 and 3rd TdF 2005.

How many TDF GC riders have done better in that time?

I'm not sure I understand why directors criticise their riders in public. It obviously does not work in Ullrich's case. And Ullrich is hardly an isolated case either. Look at Basso and Feretti when Basso was at Fassa Bortolo and in particular when Basso left the team? I'm sure there are other examples. I'm no expert, but I'd suggest that good people management does not see the boss stick it to his riders in public.

[jeffg]

I started this thread in recognition of what I thought was a nice statement on Jan's website that shows that he has class as a professional bike rider, IMO.

Of course, it degenerates into who's a nice guy, who's a champion, who is morally superior, etc. At least based on what he posts on the web, all I will say is Jan is classier than this thread :no:

[GoJavs]

Give me a break. He divorced the woman that was whining non-stop about having to spend so much time in places other than home because of his training and race schedule? Talk about biting the hand that feeds you.

Oh and, she was WELL taken care of in the divorce. You should come and see her lakehouse here.

++++++++++++++++

Well, I guess that makes it alright, Brons... :crap:
Nice.

[BumbleBeeDave]

I agree with you--Jan IS a classy guy. He IS a champion who has won far more athletic honors than most other cyclists around today.

Of course, my opinion of him as "classy" is based strictly on what I have seen of him in his results (established facts--inarguable) and the other info I have seen about him in the popular media--interviews, quotes, reports on his activities and certain reported incidents that struck me as particularly revealing. And that's all the info I'm GONNA have to form an opinion.

Likewise, my impressions of Lance are based on his athletic accomplishments (again, inarguable) and the same type of interviews, quotes, and reported incidents I feel are revealing. Short of being stuck in an elevator or a lifeboat for several days with Kevin Livingston or George Hincapie, that's about the only way I'm going to get any real revealing info about Lance. But what info I DO have makes me think he's a driven, demanding guy who has to be totally in control and in charge or else you will not be on his "A" list or his team. I would not want to work for him or with him on an extended basis.

I'm sorry that 93LegendTi requires complete academic citation before accepting a differing opinion. I don't have a complete database to search, only my personal impressions.

Jeff, I've been gone this past week and coming back last night and looking at the forum, it's disappointing. Compared to a year ago, many threads like this one--where someone like yourself simply makes a statement of their opinion of something they feel is worth noting--degenerate quickly into personal arguments and veiled personal attacks. It just doesn't seem like it was like that a year ago. But again, that's based on my impressions. I don't read EVERY post in EVERY thread.

But it IS comforting to see that DirtDigger is glad to see me. At least, I THINK he is. That's just my impression from interviews, quotes, and reported incidents I feel are revealing. ;) :rolleyes: :beer:

BBDave

[keno]

It is hard for me to imagine that there has been any other rider better suited to succeed in the business of "Winning the Tour de France" than Armstrong. I love that aspect of him, and I expect that Discovery Channel, Trek, Nike and the rest of the long list think similarly. If Lance Armstrong were a business listed on a stock exchange, I would be inclined to invest it it before I would in any of the other 188 starters similarly incorporated. Like him or not, he is a winner and built to succeed.

No doubt about it, Lance lives to destroy his opponents in the TdF. Beating them is not enough. On the other hand, away from the race I believe that he is much more human than some of you like to give him credit for, and his good work away from biking is far more than ample to support that. It would take at least decades of therapy to transform him into an also ran and strip him of his inspirational quality.

keno

[William]

It is hard for me to imagine that there has been any other rider better suited to succeed in the business of "Winning the Tour de France" than Armstrong. I love that aspect of him, and I expect that Discovery Channel, Trek, Nike and the rest of the long list think similarly. If Lance Armstrong were a business listed on a stock exchange, I would be inclined to invest it it before I would in any of the other 188 starters similarly incorporated. Like him or not, he is a winner and built to succeed.

No doubt about it, Lance lives to destroy his opponents in the TdF. Beating them is not enough. On the other hand, away from the race I believe that he is much more human than some of you like to give him credit for, and his good work away from biking is far more than ample to support that. It would take at least decades of therapy to transform him into an also ran and strip him of his inspirational quality.

keno

What Keno said. :banana:

Jan is cool. :cool:

Welcome back BBDave. :beer:

Where are my XXL Bumbletards?? :confused:

William :)

[93legendti]

It is hard for me to imagine that there has been any other rider better suited to succeed in the business of "Winning the Tour de France" than Armstrong. I love that aspect of him, and I expect that Discovery Channel, Trek, Nike and the rest of the long list think similarly. If Lance Armstrong were a business listed on a stock exchange, I would be inclined to invest it it before I would in any of the other 188 starters similarly incorporated. Like him or not, he is a winner and built to succeed.

No doubt about it, Lance lives to destroy his opponents in the TdF. Beating them is not enough. On the other hand, away from the race I believe that he is much more human than some of you like to give him credit for, and his good work away from biking is far more than ample to support that. It would take at least decades of therapy to transform him into an also ran and strip him of his inspirational quality.

keno

Yes, well said!

[Dr. Doofus]

lance dresses better than jan

kloden dresses better than either of them (what a pimp!)

all of them dress classier then vino

vino looks like a Kiev taxi driver who just won the lotto

[Tom]

vino looks like a Kiev taxi driver who just won the lotto

And Vino rides like a Kiev taxi driver drives. That's why I hope he shakes things up next year.

[Tony Edwards]

I like and admire Lance Armstrong and Jan Ullrich. From what I can see neither is a perfect man, and each has made lapses in judgment.

That said, it seems to me it's folly to blame Lance Armstrong for being as focused and driven as he is, when those defining characteristics have made him one of the greatest athletes in history. He may not be the life of the party, but he simply could not have reached the pinnacles he has if he were a Type B, laid-back person. Look at Michael Jordan, Tiger Woods, Ted Williams, etc. and what you'll see are men whose focus on excellence has set them apart from their peers, but not necessarily the world's most lovable people. That is simply the cost of doing business at this level.

For my part, I think Lance is a great ambassador for the sport and for cancer survivors, even if he's an imperfect person. He is a true champion in every sense, and I literally can't think of a more inspirational story than Lance's.

I admire Jan Ullrich, and I'd be happy to tip a beer with him, but he has lacked Lance's singular focus over the years, and in spite of having similar, perhaps superior physical abilities, his lack of drive has cost him.

[spiderlake]

http://www.ndtv.com/sports/showsports.asp?sportname=Report&story=Ullrich+pays+tribute+to+Armstrong&id=23643

Looks like Jan won a crit in Austria yesterday and had some nice comments regarding Lance. The article can be found above but also short enough that I think I can post it here:

Friday, July 29, 2005 (Mayrhofen, Austria):

German Jan Ullrich was back on the saddle on Thursday in Mayrhoen, Austria, where he won the Criterium race.

Before the start, the German, who finished in third place in the Tour de France, paid tribute to Lance Armstrong. The American announced his retirement after winning the world's most difficult race for a record seventh consecutive year.

"Lance has dominated the Tour in the last seven years. We all tried very hard to beat him but did not manage. I have to pay respects without any jealousy. I wish him good in his life after the end of his career," Ullrich said.

The Tour left Ullrich in good physical conditions to contest the 80-lap race around the small Austrian village.

Ullrich was always in front, facing local rider Georg Totschnig as his biggest threat. With less than 10 laps to go, they were racing each other and Ullrich just edged in front of his Austrian rival as they crossed the finish line.

"It was only a little circle. I am quite breathless at the moment but it was fantastic, a little circle, many spectators, no accidents. It is always nice to win," Ullrich said before a well deserved drink on the podium.

[saab2000]

The private lives of LA and of JU are exactly that: Private.

They are cyclists by profession, but other than what they choose to display publicly should remain their own thing. LA does put part of his private life on display, to be sure. He parades around with his girlfriend and that's alright. But he almost never shows his kids in public. And he almost never discusses his marriage. As someone who is fairly recently divorced, I will tell you that it is not fun and it sucks and to even hear the implication that its someone's fault makes me boil. It has to do with LA and his former wife and nobody else.

JU's private life somehow gets to be the subject of discussion here because I guess cyclingnews dot com sometimes has bits and pieces of it.

Relationships are private, people. These are normal people with occasionally public lives. But they certainly don't need our pontificating on who is right and who is wrong.

I bet most people here have experienced a major relationship which failed at least once. Those who have know that it is not nice to have others talking and speculating and passing judgement.

Sorry...... Had to get that off my chest.

Back to the point.....

JU is pretty classy because he tries hard to beat LA and simply admits that he can't. Pretty gracious if you ask me. No excuses at all. Just the facts, ma'am.

[J.M. White]

A few observations, opinions, and wishes:

1. Lance is the Ty Cobb of cycling. Obsessed with perfection. Respected, but not liked, by his peers. Adored by (American) fans.

2. Will Lance ever be able to make permanent friendships/relationships? Or will he selfishly demand absolute loyalty from those around him, as he seemed to do at USPS and DC?

3. Lance is a "success" in the true American sense of the word, as was Cobb. But Cobb was largely a failure as a human being. Lance, on the other hand, has opportunities to eclipse his sporting achievements. I for one hope that he's remembered as much, if not more, for his accomplishments off the bike.

[SGP]

A few observations, opinions, and wishes:

1. Lance is the Ty Cobb of cycling. Obsessed with perfection. Respected, but not liked, by his peers. Adored by (American) fans.

2. Will Lance ever be able to make permanent friendships/relationships? Or will he selfishly demand absolute loyalty from those around him, as he seemed to do at USPS and DC?

3. Lance is a "success" in the true American sense of the word, as was Cobb. But Cobb was largely a failure as a human being. Lance, on the other hand, has opportunities to eclipse his sporting achievements. I for one hope that he's remembered as much, if not more, for his accomplishments off the bike.


very astute.

[BumbleBeeDave]

. . . that this is a wonderful comparison. Cobb was long gone long before my time--or my dad’s time--but I’ve read about his bloodthirsty attitude on the field--spiking opposing players just for grins--and his many dust-ups off the field. A real whirling SOB. I also hope Lance goes on to success off the bike and can leave the competitive attitude behind when necessary.

BBDave

[Fixed]

Hey Bro. why would you hold these guys to a higher standard than oursleves. At the top these are young rich guys who want to have some fun.They work hard and some partty hard just like any other young rich kids. i.m.h.o. Cheers