Vino leaving T-Mobile

[cinelli]

CyclingNews reports that Vinokourov is leaving T-Mobile for a team he can lead at the Tour next year. Discovery says no thanks, so who is going to step up and throw lots of money at an aggressive rider who will not win the Tour next year?

[dirtdigger88]

T- Mobi. . . wait they all ready have riders like that :p

Jason

[Onno]

I can't imagine why anyone would hire the guy. He's essentially been riding by and for himself this tour--Team Kasikstan. I'm guessing too that his decision not to rejoin T-Mobile was made for him, that he was told he would not be on the team for next year.

Onno

[coylifut]

I can't imagine why anyone would hire the guy. He's essentially been riding by and for himself this tour--Team Kasikstan. I'm guessing too that his decision not to rejoin T-Mobile was made for him, that he was told he would not be on the team for next year.

Onno

I have hard time believing that T Mobile wouldn't want him. By winning LBL, he represents their most significant victory this year. A year in which victories have been quite scarce.

[jerk]

vino is not riding for himself nor has he ever been anything but a good team mate. this is the man who BRAKED before the finish line in the olympics to let his trade-teammate win the gold medal. vino is pure class and one tough sob.

jerk

[djg]

I can't imagine why anyone would hire the guy. He's essentially been riding by and for himself this tour--Team Kasikstan. I'm guessing too that his decision not to rejoin T-Mobile was made for him, that he was told he would not be on the team for next year.

Onno

He can win races, he's at least visible in big stage races, and your assessment (not mine) of his tour conduct notwithstanding, he's NOT a problem child. You think nobody wants him?

[Onno]

I'm probably too harsh in judging him only by his performance in this Tour. Yes, he won a stage impressively, and his tactics may be a result of a poorly managed team. But a lot of his attacks just look silly to me (poorly timed, feeble, repetitive), and don't seem to be a part of any kind of team strategy. That Kloden and Ullrich chased him on yet another of his brief breaks the other day suggests that they don't really think of him as being a part of the team. He's riding to get noticed, and he's also showing that this year at least, he doesn't have the strength or the smarts to be a real challenger. Rasmussen has been WAY more impressive in every regard.

All these remarks are purely of the armchair variety, and shouldn't be taken too seriously.

Onno

[e-RICHIE]

I'm probably too harsh in judging him only by his performance in this Tour. Yes, he won a stage impressively, and his tactics may be a result of a poorly managed team. But a lot of his attacks just look silly to me (poorly timed, feeble, repetitive), and don't seem to be a part of any kind of team strategy. That Kloden and Ullrich chased him on yet another of his brief breaks the other day suggests that they don't really think of him as being a part of the team. He's riding to get noticed, and he's also showing that this year at least, he doesn't have the strength or the smarts to be a real challenger. Rasmussen has been WAY more impressive in every regard.

All these remarks are purely of the armchair variety, and shouldn't be taken too seriously.

Onno


you have to read the fine print; he is basically
driving the pace and taking orders from his
ds. he's not out there attacking willy-nilly. all
of it, right down to sunday's stage where he
went back for bottles for jan and klodi and then
continued driving - it's all decided by management.
if he was doing his own race, he'd never get another
contract.

[BarryG]

a lot of his attacks just look silly to me and don't seem to be a part of any kind of team strategy.
Nah, attacking Armstrong/Discovery was indeed TM's strategy and Vino was actually pretty impressive as the Energizer attack bunny.

Barry

[Onno]

all of it, right down to sunday's stage where he
went back for bottles for jan and klodi and then
continued driving - it's all decided by management.
if he was doing his own race, he'd never get another
contract.

I guess that's my point. I think he is doing his own race a lot of the time. What about when he attacked and was chased down by both Kloden and Ullrich the other day? That wasn't pace setting, and it wasn't softening up Armstrong. It looked like he was trying to go out on his own again, and the team objected or didn't care and continued its focus on setting up Ullrich. I can't imagine this as part of a team strategy, but perhaps more experienced riders can explain this to us.

It would sure help if he had SOME pink in his outfit, wouldn't it? :D

Onno

[e-RICHIE]

I guess that's my point. I think he is doing his own race a lot of the time. What about when he attacked and was chased down by both Kloden and Ullrich the other day? That wasn't pace setting, and it wasn't softening up Armstrong. It looked like he was trying to go out on his own again, and the team objected or didn't care and continued its focus on setting up Ullrich. I can't imagine this as part of a team strategy, but perhaps more experienced riders can explain this to us.

It would sure help if he had SOME pink in his outfit, wouldn't it? :D

Onno


wrong.
after he brought the bottles up, he was ordered to continue
driving the pace. that information is online and has been
since that stage. he wasn't being chased down by his
teammates...

[Onno]

wrong.
after he brought the bottles up, he was ordered to continue
driving the pace. that information is online and has been
since that stage. he wasn't being chased down by his
teammates...

Could you point me to the webpage?

Thanks,
Onno

[e-RICHIE]

Could you point me to the webpage?

Thanks,
Onno



no i can't.
go back to the daily live coverage on
cyclingnews and velonews and also
read the full coverage of the day's events.
e-GOOGLE

[victork]

Johan says;

"He's certainly one of the toughest and most intelligent riders in the peloton at the moment," Bruyneel told L'Equipe. "But I don't think he's capable of winning the Tour de France."

I am a huge fan of Vino's and would really like for him to do with this quote what Lance would do...use it as motivation and thump Discovery next year.

[shaq-d]

Johan says;

"He's certainly one of the toughest and most intelligent riders in the peloton at the moment," Bruyneel told L'Equipe. "But I don't think he's capable of winning the Tour de France."

I am a huge fan of Vino's and would really like for him to do with this quote what Lance would do...use it as motivation and thump Discovery next year.

except that bruyneel is right.. and basso will win the next 3-5 tours.

sd

[Fixed]

vino is not riding for himself nor has he ever been anything but a good team mate. this is the man who BRAKED before the finish line in the olympics to let his trade-teammate win the gold medal. vino is pure class and one tough sob.

jerk
Vino would make a great rider for any team.He is nothing but guts.

[Ozz]

except that bruyneel is right.. and basso will win the next 3-5 tours.

sd
Valverde....Basso will be his Ullrich! ;)

[bostondrunk]

no i can't.
go back to the daily live coverage on
cyclingnews and velonews and also
read the full coverage of the day's events.
e-GOOGLE

classy

[Onno]

OK, this is what I found on cycling news:

Viewers and commentators were perplexed by the sight of his own team bringing Vino back on both the Port-de-Pailhères and the final climb of Ax 3 Domaines. Kummer justified it by saying he was on an off day. "Vino's performances were excellent before, but he didn't have the legs like, say, at the Galibier, where he had a super day. As the others didn't react, we had to. Alexandre was out to tickle the others a bit, but unfortunately it didn't work."

With all respect to e-richie, I just don't buy this. So Vino attacked and the team could tell he didn't have good legs so they pulled him back? They pulled him back because others weren't going to? This doesn't make any sense, and I can't for the life of me understand the 'team tactics' of this. It looked to me as though Kloden and Ullrich didn't wait to see if others would reel Vino in; they went after him very soon after he attacked. It struck me that the others didn't care if Vino got a real break because he was not a threat. He was only a threat to the team hierarchy, and so they reeled him in to send a message to him. Of course the team is not going to admit to that, because it's as much as admitting that the team is in chaos (which it appears to be).

And now Vino announces, before the tour is over, that he's leaving the team. This too seems to stick a finger in the eye of T-Mobile. Why not at least wait until the tour is over?

I'm sticking to my interpretation (until I see better evidence to the contrary) that Vino is riding on his own much of the time, trying to draw attention to himself for a signing for next year, and probably also to tell the rest of his team that he's not playing by their rules.

Onno

[Bill Bove]

It would sure help if he had SOME pink in his outfit, wouldn't it? :D
Onno

Works for me :banana: :banana: :banana:

[e-RICHIE]

OK, this is what I found on cycling news:

Viewers and commentators were perplexed by the sight of his own team bringing Vino back on both the Port-de-Pailhères and the final climb of Ax 3 Domaines. Kummer justified it by saying he was on an off day. "Vino's performances were excellent before, but he didn't have the legs like, say, at the Galibier, where he had a super day. As the others didn't react, we had to. Alexandre was out to tickle the others a bit, but unfortunately it didn't work."

With all respect to e-richie, I just don't buy this. So Vino attacked and the team could tell he didn't have good legs so they pulled him back? They pulled him back because others weren't going to? This doesn't make any sense, and I can't for the life of me understand the 'team tactics' of this. It looked to me as though Kloden and Ullrich didn't wait to see if others would reel Vino in; they went after him very soon after he attacked. It struck me that the others didn't care if Vino got a real break because he was not a threat. He was only a threat to the team hierarchy, and so they reeled him in to send a message to him. Of course the team is not going to admit to that, because it's as much as admitting that the team is in chaos (which it appears to be).

And now Vino announces, before the tour is over, that he's leaving the team. This too seems to stick a finger in the eye of T-Mobile. Why not at least wait until the tour is over?

I'm sticking to my interpretation (until I see better evidence to the contrary) that Vino is riding on his own much of the time, trying to draw attention to himself for a signing for next year, and probably also to tell the rest of his team that he's not playing by their rules.

Onno


are you asking me to find the exact text
that explains all this??

[Onno]

are you asking me to find the exact text
that explains all this??

Not really. I'd just like an explanation of the two TM men chasing down Vino as part of some genuine team strategy (with all 3 playing their parts) that makes sense. I'm not at all convinced I'm right. We make our interpretations with the information we have. The information I have at the moment leads me to believe that Vino is riding for himself. You're suggesting that Vino is not only a great rider but a consummate team player. I'm suggesting that he may be a very strong rider, but during this tour at least, he's not been much of a team player, and that his frantic and frequently mistimed attacks don't say much for his tactics either.

On the other hand, I have no real experience with racing, so I'm very willing to be instructed by people like you who know much more than I do. But I'm not going to buy assertions with no evidence or explanation.

Cheers,
Onno

[93legendti]

Either Vino is dumb or his team manager is. Having 4 strong riders like Vino, Sevilla, Kloden and Jan and failing to make a dent on Discovery's hold on yellow is a pretty poor showing.
Vino's attacks were all guarenteed to exert maximum energy, with minimal rewards vis a vis the yellow jersey. Yes, he won a great stage. But when the team needed him on the mountain top finishes he didn't have enough to help them. The decision on stage 8 to set up Kloden for an attempted win in Germany was a waste of Kloden and Vino's energy--if T-Mobile had designs on the yellow jersey.

[e-RICHIE]

Not really. I'd just like an explanation of the two TM men chasing down Vino as part of some genuine team strategy (with all 3 playing their parts) that makes sense. I'm not at all convinced I'm right. We make our interpretations with the information we have. The information I have at the moment leads me to believe that Vino is riding for himself. You're suggesting that Vino is not only a great rider but a consummate team player. I'm suggesting that he may be a very strong rider, but during this tour at least, he's not been much of a team player, and that his frantic and frequently mistimed attacks don't say much for his tactics either.

On the other hand, I have no real experience with racing, so I'm very willing to be instructed by people like you who know much more than I do. But I'm not going to buy assertions with no evidence or explanation.

Cheers,
Onno



here:
(from http://www.cyclingnews.com/road/2005/tour05/?id=live/tour0514)

16:09 CEST 210.5km/10km to go
Totschnig has reached the foot of the descent at Ax-les-Thermes, then it's hang a left over the river and onto the last climb. All done very stylishly.

Vino has the back of the Armstrong group just ahead of him now; he'll make it across, but not have any recovery time. He's brought some bottles up for Ullrich and Klöden though.
====================
at 6 miles to go, he would NOT drop back to get
bottles for his 2 leaders, hand them off, and then
ride off the front.

[Onno]

at 6 miles to go, he would NOT drop back to get
bottles for his 2 leaders, hand them off, and then
ride off the front.

Sorry, but isn't this precisely what he did? It does not seem so fantastic to me. He's ordered to bring up drinks, finds that insulting (not unreasonably, perhaps, given his high overall placing, his demonstrated ability to win stages, and his own estimations of his abilities to win), and then, to show his anger and frustration, takes off. The other two, annoyed by his antics and his refusal to accept his team role, chase him down almost immediately. I'm guessing at motivation here, but it makes more sense then team orders for Vino to bring up drinks, orders for him to ride off the front, and then orders for the other two to catch him because he doesn't have the legs.

We'll probably have to wait for Vino's tell-all book, likely titled Kamikaze Kazie, to know for sure.

O

[e-RICHIE]

Sorry, but isn't this precisely what he did? It does not seem so fantastic to me. He's ordered to bring up drinks, finds that insulting (not unreasonably, perhaps, given his high overall placing, his demonstrated ability to win stages, and his own estimations of his abilities to win), and then, to show his anger and frustration, takes off. The other two, annoyed by his antics and his refusal to accept his team role, chase him down almost immediately. I'm guessing at motivation here, but it makes more sense then team orders for Vino to bring up drinks, orders for him to ride off the front, and then orders for the other two to catch him because he doesn't have the legs.

We'll probably have to wait for Vino's tell-all book, likely titled Kamikaze Kazie, to know for sure.

O


his high overall placing?
he had two reammates AHEAD of him on gc.

i think you need to follow the events as they
unfold and not try to rethink them 4 days afterwards.
spend some time racing and/or around the sport.
this is a team event and he has a role as a team member.

this, hopefully, will be my last post.

[Dr. Doofus]

spend some time racing and/or around the sport.
this is a team event and he has a role as a team member.

this, hopefully, will be my last post.


hey sachs, where's the water?

and by the way, those dry shoe covers back in the car would be comfy right now...could you be a dear and....

[Johny]

Vino is the ultimate teammate!

T-Mobile sucks!

[Fixed]

If e-RICHEY says it is so it so.The man is all about bikes we are lucky to be able to talk with him he is a master.How about a little respect for this man. I don't know much about racing but e RICHEY does. Cheers

[Onno]

his high overall placing?
he had two reammates AHEAD of him on gc.

i think you need to follow the events as they
unfold and not try to rethink them 4 days afterwards.
spend some time racing and/or around the sport.
this is a team event and he has a role as a team member.

this, hopefully, will be my last post.

I guess I'll be spared further condescension then. I've been following the sport for 15 years, and have watched each stage of this year's race, so I'm not exactly a neophyte, though I haven't read every newstory on the web. I'm pretty sure you haven't either.

Frankly, I'm not sure why you're getting so nippy. I've only been asking for an explanation of your insistence that he's a team player when evidence appears to indicate otherwise. Simply pulling rank as you just did does not counter the evidence I've provided for my reading of events. I'm not even blaming him, really. By several accounts, T-Mobile is not a well run team. It's sad to see his talent wasted by the team and his own energizer bunny zeal.

O

[JohnS]

I guess I'll be spared further condescension then. I've been following the sport for 15 years, and have watched each stage of this year's race, so I'm not exactly a neophyte, though I haven't read every newstory on the web. I'm pretty sure you haven't either.

Frankly, I'm not sure why you're getting so nippy. I've only been asking for an explanation of your insistence that he's a team player when evidence appears to indicate otherwise. Simply pulling rank as you just did does not counter the evidence I've provided for my reading of events. I'm not even blaming him, really. By several accounts, T-Mobile is not a well run team. It's sad to see his talent wasted by the team and his own energizer bunny zeal.

O
Some people are full of themselves, some are full of something else, and some are full of both. Anyone who can't acknowledge another's viewpoint isn't worth debating with.

[e-RICHIE]

snipped:
...I've only been asking for an explanation of your insistence that he's a team player when evidence appears to indicate otherwise. Simply pulling rank as you just did does not counter the evidence I've provided for my reading of events. I'm not even blaming him, really. By several accounts, T-Mobile is not a well run team. It's sad to see his talent wasted by the team and his own energizer bunny zeal.O



from vn coverage of stage 14:
T-Mobile's Alex Vinokourov, the stage winner in a two-man sprint with Botero in Briançon on Wednesday, was aggressive again today, attacking on both of the closing climbs before dropping off the pace some 6km from the finish. He moved from 11th overall to ninth. With a stage win already under his belt, Vinokourov showed he was willing to sacrifice his GC position to benefit teammate Ullrich, Armstrong's longtime rival.

[weisan]

banana-ra-ma break loose....Ahh...I'm sorry to interrupt such as l(o)vely discussion with the latest ***News Flash***Vino leaving T-Mobile...to join the Aljazeera Sports Channel Team from Iraq....
http://alicehui.com/serotta/vino/aljazeera.jpg

Okay, thank you for your patience, please continue the discussion..."O", you were saying? Oh yes, Richie-sawa knows nuthin' except Twizzlers, that you are KKOORRECT! 10 points...and you, e-RICHIE©™® were saying that "O" is nuthin' but an armchair QB....well, nobody here can really argue with that, aren't we all???!....So, 10 points!!! :bike:

Race over...time to dismantle the stage.....Don't forget to tune it tomorrow for Stage 18 - Albi > Mende, 189.0 km, seeya! ;)

[e-RICHIE]

banana-ra-ma break loose....Ahh...I'm sorry to interrupt such as l(o)vely discussion with the latest ***News Flash***Vino leaving T-Mobile...to join the Aljazeera Sports Channel Team from Iraq....

Okay, thank you for your patience, please continue the discussion..."O", you were saying? Oh yes, Richie-sawa knows nuthin' except Twizzlers, that you are KKOORRECT! 10 points...and you, e-RICHIE©™® were saying that "O" is nuthin' but an armchair QB....well, nobody here can really argue with that, aren't we all???!....So, 10 points!!! :bike:

Race over...time to dismantle the stage.....Don't forget to tune it tomorrow for Stage 18 - Albi > Mende, 189.0 km, seeya! ;)



i said no such thing.
otoh, we had this issue debated 2 days ago (search
the archives) and all of the points asked about today
were posted then, as were some of the pasted texts.
the vino "tactic" as well as tmo's was at the core of that
thread, and the fact that vino was sent back at 10km
for bottles, handed them off, and continued to set tempo,
was part of that thread. and part of that thread was
the explanation that he was doing his duty as a paid
member of tmo and had 2 teammates ahead of him on gc.

[weisan]

i said no such thing.

Richie-sawa, you are a respectable member of this community, don't make me....don't force me....don't piss me......don't bribe me......heck! Don't make me wait so darn long on that stinkin' waiting list of yours...no wait! I haven't signed up yet.... :D

i think you need to...spend some time racing and/or around the sport....

[inthegutter]

i said no such thing.
otoh, we had this issue debated 2 days ago (search
the archives) and all of the points asked about today
were posted then, as were some of the pasted texts.
the vino "tactic" as well as tmo's was at the core of that
thread, and the fact that vino was sent back at 10km
for bottles, handed them off, and continued to set tempo,
was part of that thread. and part of that thread was
the explanation that he was doing his duty as a paid
member of tmo and had 2 teammates ahead of him on gc.


Vino was sent back? I don't know what stage some of you guys were watching...

[alembical]

One issue that I have with Vino and T-Mobile is their focus to the job at hand. How did they spend their last rest day of the tour de france....why negotiating contracts. I don't really understand that or the timing of the announcement of Vino's decision to change teams...... I guess it brings them more PR and Vino likely gets the opportunity for more money, but still, it is the rest day of the tour and all of their minds should be focused on the tour, but then again thats just my two cents and I have never (and will never) raced professionally.

Alembical

http://www.velonews.com/tour2005/news/articles/8565.0.html

Because of this chaotic situation at T-Mobile and the pending decisions about the future of the team, Ullrich's manager, Wolfgang Strohband, Vinokourov's manager, Tony Rominger, Walter Godefroot and Olaf Ludwig sat down together during the rest day in Pau. Assessing the various interests within the team, Rominger saw Vinokourov's departure as the only sensible solution.

Rominger named Ag2r and Credit Agricole as potential homes for his client. At Crédit Agricole he would replace Christophe Moreau, who once again has disappointed the French in the Tour and whose contract will not be extended. A ride with CA would also reunite Vino with compatriot Andrej Kascheckin, and the third Kazakh in the peloton, Sergej Jakowlew, could also make the switch.

At Ag2r, Vinokourov would rejoin mentor Vincent Lavenu, who gave him his start at Casino in 1998. Ag2r has been mediocre at this year's Tour, gaining admittance only as a wild card because it is not a Pro Tour squad. Vinokourov would give Ag2r a big boost.

[e-RICHIE]

Vino was sent back? I don't know what stage some of you guys were watching...



did you read (my) post #24 with the text
pasted from the live online report of that day?
yes. he was sent back to get bottles for his
two teammates that were ahead of him on gc.


i assume you also saw a follow-up post of mine in which
text was pasted from the vn reacp of the stage in which
is written:
"With a stage win already under his belt, Vinokourov
showed he was willing to sacrifice his GC position to
benefit teammate Ullrich..."

[inthegutter]

It says Vino will surely MAKE it back, not Vino was SENT back.

Like I said, some of you guys did not watch the stage.

He was catching back on the lead group (after being dropped AGAIN) and on the decent making his way through the team cars. He stopped at the T-mobile car and got some bottles. I personally didn't see him give any to Jan or Kloden but perhaps he did. In either case, right after he caught on he went to the front and attacked.

[e-RICHIE]

It says Vino will surely MAKE it back, not Vino was SENT back.

Like I said, some of you guys did not watch the stage.

He was catching back on the lead group (after being dropped AGAIN) and on the decent making his way through the team cars. He stopped at the T-mobile car and got some bottles. I personally didn't see him give any to Jan or Kloden but perhaps he did. In either case, right after he caught on he went to the front and attacked.


well that doesn't jive with the live reports or
the follow up recap in which it's noted that
he was "...willing to sacrifice...".

[inthegutter]

here:

16:09 CEST 210.5km/10km to go
Totschnig has reached the foot of the descent at Ax-les-Thermes, then it's hang a left over the river and onto the last climb. All done very stylishly.

Vino has the back of the Armstrong group just ahead of him now; he'll make it across, but not have any recovery time. He's brought some bottles up for Ullrich and Klöden though.


It does jive with your post...

Besides, I don't understand why you are arguing against other people who saw the stage when you just know somebody else's written opinion.

[Dr. Doofus]

just knock it off

the lot of you

secret out: Doof the Evil Me behind T-Mobile

(Godefroot front man/pizza boy)

Vino doof's *****

Vino just following orders

(orders change with the random chafing of doof boxers)

Now

Off to double-cheese+red cabbage+ wurst+ anchovy+ pineapple deep dish

20 inch

Doof and Jan need food

[e-RICHIE]

It does jive with your post...

Besides, I don't understand why you are arguing against other people who saw the stage when you just know somebody else's written opinion.




helllllllloooooo
i saw the stage the morning it happened.
weren't you here reading that day when i
started this thread:
http://forums.thepaceline.net/showthread.php?t=9667
and ultimately conceded that i had the date (the 16th)
and the stage (the 14th) flip=flopped???
at that point in time, my interest was in another
incident, but i was watching it live.

[Dr. Doofus]

fodo said

knock it off

[inthegutter]

helllllllloooooo
i saw the stage the morning it happened.
weren't you here reading that day when i
started this thread:
http://forums.thepaceline.net/showthread.php?t=9667
and ultimately conceded that i had the date (the 16th)
and the stage (the 14th) flip=flopped???
at that point in time, my interest was in another
incident, but i was watching it live.


actually no, I don't follow all of your threads...sorry. You kept refering to the fact that some bozo writing a live update said Vino was supporting T-mob which obviously wasn't the case. You were also incorrect saying Vino dropped back to get the bottles, in spite of the fact that the Bozo actually got that part right. Why would I have assumed you actually watched it?

[e-RICHIE]

actually no, I don't follow all of your threads...sorry. You kept refering to the fact that some bozo writing a live update said Vino was supporting T-mob which obviously wasn't the case. You were also incorrect saying Vino dropped back to get the bottles, in spite of the fact that the Bozo actually got that part right. Why would I have assumed you actually watched it?


okay - i never mentioned a bozo; i cited cyclingnews.com
and vn.com. i did cite and paste the live text that said he
was bringing bottles to his two teammates. it's difficult for
me to fathom how he got the bottles if he didn't drop back
for them. why do i continue with the rest of it? well, partly
because i never did believe the live voiceover that he attacked
at 10k and was chased down by his teammates. phil and paul
are watching the same live french tv feed that we are. reading
the live online version, as well as knowing from my racing
experience that vino had already won a stage and was still
on the team in support of his two higher-up-on-gc teammates,
i figured he would never attack his gc leaders. it's just not the
way it is done. furthermore, and i wish i could locate the text
and paste it here, i read that the team management was happy
with vino's efforts in the stage win and during the 14th stage,
and told him to hand off the bottles and then do what he could
to keep the pace high, despite their (godefroot (sp?) et al)
thinking that he was pretty much already spent.

[Dr. Doofus]

stop the pissing match

the only ones who know are vino and walter

now go save up for lugged bikes

[e-RICHIE]

stop the pissing match

the only ones who know are vino and walter

now go ride your damn bikes


i did my 50 km already today

[jeffg]

stop the pissing match

the only ones who know are vino and walter

now go save up for lugged bikes

Perhaps Vino and Mario? It seems to me that Walter stands on the sidelines, *****es in the press that people (i.e. Pevenage) misrepresented to him that Jan was in a position to challenge for yellow, that the team is done as far as GC after Courchevel, etc. Maybe with him gone T-Mobile will have a better to chance of utilizing the talent it has constructively. I agree that only Vino and folks in the team really know.

Even Horner, who assailed T-Mobile's tactics as not even passing Tactics 101 don't know ... he was too busy being dropped

[inthegutter]

okay - i never mentioned a bozo; i cited cyclingnews.com
and vn.com. i did cite and paste the live text that said he
was bringing bottles to his two teammates. it's difficult for
me to fathom how he got the bottles if he didn't drop back
for them. why do i continue with the rest of it? well, partly
because i never did believe the live voiceover that he attacked
at 10k and was chased down by his teammates. phil and paul
are watching the same live french tv feed that we are. reading
the live online version, as well as knowing from my racing
experience that vino had already won a stage and was still
on the team in support of his two higher-up-on-gc teammates,
i figured he would never attack his gc leaders. it's just not the
way it is done. furthermore, and i wish i could locate the text
and paste it here, i read that the team management was happy
with vino's efforts in the stage win and during the 14th stage,
and told him to hand off the bottles and then do what he could
to keep the pace high, despite their (godefroot (sp?) et al)
thinking that he was pretty much already spent.


So it was all a big assumption?

you are going back and forth too much for me too keep up.

[Dr. Doofus]

will mario kummer ever be a porn star?

[jeffg]

will mario kummer ever be a porn star?

How about "eher nein!" ;)

[e-RICHIE]

So it was all a big assumption?



which part?