The Greatest LBS Ever.

[giverdada]

misleading title, of course -- i haven't found the greatest local bike shop ever; i'm just wondering what it is/would be to you. this is, understandably, an entirely subjective and elusive ultimate, like asking what the greatest movie of all time is, or who your ideal date would bee, or which of keith jarrett's koln sections is the best (i'm going to have to go with part I).

i'm one of those people without much disposable income. this doesn't keep me from disposing of much of my income on things of two-wheeled nature, but much of the time i do this in online market places because i can't afford local shop mark-ups (not that they're not necessary and right, however). since being on this forum, i've gained the perspective of trying to keep the local shops alive through our customer spending, and have spent increasingly more in shops than online in recent years. lately, i've had something of a dream come true (only after an extended nightmare), and have a chunk of change to plunk down on a complete build, from a local shop, with only minor fit tweaking and maybe a water bottle thrown in to sweeten the deal. oh, and some really nice campy-compatible wheels with no lockring funny business.

the experience has been maddening.

there are extensive LBS options here in toronto, and they all have some things that they're good at/good for, but there isn't one that's outshone all others in all (or even most) aspects. for one, i find everyone in the bike industry to be especially terrible at punctual communication. can't tell you how many shops i've called, looking to spend several hundred dollars on wheels, who've never called me back, or have taken several days to do so and only to tell me that they don't have what i'm looking for. the boutique shops, with drawers full of Tune hubs and espresso machines by the wood tables and comfy places to sit, don't call back. they don't have bikes that can be bought and taken away on the spot. and why i'm calling all of these shops: they're not open outside of day-job work hours. open after 11am? not sundays or mondays? i guess the bankers are the only ones who can go to these places...

my wife was looking for a new frame and talked to people at the cinelli concept store, strada, in vancouver. response same day. cell phone calls from the sales manager, after hours, receipts scanned and e-mailed within the minute, special offers on build kits, etc. there was a store here that used to ask its potential employees to consider: what can i do to remove all obstacles between you and you riding your bike? a good motto.

so, friends, what is your ideal bike shop? high end? low end? everything in between? boutique with epresso and micro brew and a team and a club and campy-compatible cables and kids' bikes and tubulars and prompt ordering and 'normal' business hours and wicked, QUALITY service (can't believe i paid one shop a rush service fee to box my bike worse than i would have into a felt cruiser box bigger than my sedan!), sales, random spare parts in the $10 bin, a web presence, what?

let's design utopia.

[oldpotatoe]

misleading title, of course -- i haven't found the greatest local bike shop ever; i'm just wondering what it is/would be to you. this is, understandably, an entirely subjective and elusive ultimate, like asking what the greatest movie of all time is, or who your ideal date would bee, or which of keith jarrett's koln sections is the best (i'm going to have to go with part I).

i'm one of those people without much disposable income. this doesn't keep me from disposing of much of my income on things of two-wheeled nature, but much of the time i do this in online market places because i can't afford local shop mark-ups (not that they're not necessary and right, however). since being on this forum, i've gained the perspective of trying to keep the local shops alive through our customer spending, and have spent increasingly more in shops than online in recent years. lately, i've had something of a dream come true (only after an extended nightmare), and have a chunk of change to plunk down on a complete build, from a local shop, with only minor fit tweaking and maybe a water bottle thrown in to sweeten the deal. oh, and some really nice campy-compatible wheels with no lockring funny business.

the experience has been maddening.

there are extensive LBS options here in toronto, and they all have some things that they're good at/good for, but there isn't one that's outshone all others in all (or even most) aspects. for one, i find everyone in the bike industry to be especially terrible at punctual communication. can't tell you how many shops i've called, looking to spend several hundred dollars on wheels, who've never called me back, or have taken several days to do so and only to tell me that they don't have what i'm looking for. the boutique shops, with drawers full of Tune hubs and espresso machines by the wood tables and comfy places to sit, don't call back. they don't have bikes that can be bought and taken away on the spot. and why i'm calling all of these shops: they're not open outside of day-job work hours. open after 11am? not sundays or mondays? i guess the bankers are the only ones who can go to these places...

my wife was looking for a new frame and talked to people at the cinelli concept store, strada, in vancouver. response same day. cell phone calls from the sales manager, after hours, receipts scanned and e-mailed within the minute, special offers on build kits, etc. there was a store here that used to ask its potential employees to consider: what can i do to remove all obstacles between you and you riding your bike? a good motto.

so, friends, what is your ideal bike shop? high end? low end? everything in between? boutique with epresso and micro brew and a team and a club and campy-compatible cables and kids' bikes and tubulars and prompt ordering and 'normal' business hours and wicked, QUALITY service (can't believe i paid one shop a rush service fee to box my bike worse than i would have into a felt cruiser box bigger than my sedan!), sales, random spare parts in the $10 bin, a web presence, what?

let's design utopia.

And utopia it will be.

Utopia-

1.
a. often Utopia An ideally perfect place, especially in its social, political, and moral aspects.
b. A work of fiction describing a utopia.
2. An impractical, idealistic scheme for social and political reform.

No such thing as best bike shop, restaurant, medical facility, politician, watch, snowboard, car, bike, etc.............................

You will get as many answers as people that respond.

No bike shop can be everything to everybody. Those go out of business.

Any small business has to write their business plan. Identify their target market, aggressively pursue that target market. You are going to not appeal to some segment of that business you are in. That's inevitable.

I send people down the street all the time and other bike shops refer people to me. Nature of this, or any business.

[Kontact]

Where everything is free, yet the employees so well paid that only 50 year old pro team mechanics work there.

Where every employee never makes a mistake, disagrees with a customer's opinion of fails to get old abused bicycles working perfectly.

Where every fitting produces an aggressive, aerodymanic position that feels like sitting on a Lazyboy.

Where every wheel trued stays that way forever, cables don't stretch and bearings stay in adjustment.

Located within 25 feet of every customers home, with ample parking and open 24 hours.

[hiljentaa]

Welcoming, down to answer questions, down to order stuff at online prices, prompt call-backs, used stuff for the pillaging, good service techs for those odd-ball jobs.

That's about it for me. I don't have thousands of dollars to spend on badass custom rigs, so I have to figure out a way to make a rad bike for cheap...which usually means good deals and used parts.

I'd prefer to spend my money in a shop, but I have found no such place that caters towards those particular needs...though I do understand they are not like everyone else's.

[giverdada]

i guess the more prescient pursuit would be to outline the wickedest aspects of where i've been.

free espresso-based coffee and great conversation, regardless of whether i look like i'm about to buy something.

the guy down the street who is always ready to help me out, long after hours, with the quirkiest adjustments/last minute saves on things i've inevitably screwed up.

anyone who's loaned me tools.

people who are willing to get things done a little sooner, or teach me how they did it, for a sixer of beer and some good stories.

that shop that agonizes with me about insurance claims.

the one that upholds warranties even though the manufacturer said it was only for 5 years.

the one with that wrench that is a little surly, bought really just a softy with an extreme weakness for classic campy bits. he also happens to be able to true any handbuilt to new condition in 10 minutes.

that shop that saw me walking from down the block, and as i passed at 7:30 in the morning, offered me a tube, just 'cause i looked like a guy who needed a hand.

[1happygirl]

Takes time to fit you when it's close to closing 'cuz you drove a long way but not knowing if you'll be back to buy anything.
One that would let me take 6 mos. to pay out a multi-thousand $$ frame that I then could walk out with it.
Never to busy to take my questions over the phone.
Treats me as family, knows my name, and asks about my sick Mom.
Will let me hang out and talk bikes without buying anything but remembering I spent close to $8,000 once or over time.
Is close enough to visit.
Big enough to have a lot of frames to test ride, but feels like a small place.
Yes Dorothy, it does exist.

[eddief]

Chet made my day a couple of weeks ago. Stop in to see him when you are in Upstate MI.

[Skrawny]

Bespoke Cycles (http://bespokecyclessf.com/) in San Francisco for me.

Certainly a boutique shop.
They are not a big shop, and don't have 25,000 different kinds of tubes and tires, but what they do have are quality products. They don't have a bunch of stock bikes in the store that you can buy and ride away on, most of what is in the shop are demos. They specialize in custom (hence the name), and are one of the 15 flagship Serotta dealers. The guys are nice, prompt, professional and the work and fit are spot - on.

Just what I want in a shop.

Now I just have to move back to San Francisco...

-s

[Kontact]

Who is going to pay for the espresso, loaner tools, employees with nothing to do, open layaways on dated merchandise, shop funded warranties and online prices (same as wholesale cost)? :confused:

It must be incredibly frustrating owning a bike shop and having people hope or expect for shops to operate at negative cash flow. :crap:

So, you sell one $2500 bicycle and made maybe 25% of that after overhead. Then you add espresso, $15 an hour for informational employees and a couple hundred in tools for customers. Then the $2500 bike breaks out of warranty and and the replacement frame costs the shop more than what they profitted on the sale. All parts are being sold at cost, so the only money maker is labor, which you're discouraging by loaning tools and answering any question. How much did the shop make, and how long will it exist?


I work at an EXCELLENT shop. We do spend a lot of time with customers, are flexible with hours, sweat the insurance claims, don't charge for warranty rebuilds on broken frames and minimize labor costs by charging a la carte. Yet we wouldn't make this list because the shop makes money by actually charging for the rest of it.

This thread is SO frustrating.

[giverdada]

you should charge for things. a utopia is, by definition, impossible. and frustration is what started the thread, but then it migrated to other things, like positive experiences. and, as mentioned in the first section, it is pretty understood that different shops do different things as they cater to different needs of different populations. all this difference makes for very elusive success in any more than a couple of areas. everything costs something, and there's no way i'd ever have the courage to do anything entrepreneurial because it relies too much on fickle human desire, so i understand and respect where bike shops are coming from. maybe it's just the fall time in a bike-unfriendly city and the lack of miles in my legs is driving me crazy... :crap:

[giverdada]

do bike shops have a responsibility to foster bicycle 'community' (a completely overused and diluted term and concept of late, but for lack of a better one...)?do you charge a la carte for helping people like their bikes and know more about them? is there a fee for the authentic smile on your face when someone asks for help? how much does it cost to be nice instead of the surly a-hole, dismissing anyone who just needs to ask for some advice, or use a floor pump, or root through the bin for a 7-speed freehub? i guess that when shops charge for every service they provide, it's all sale all the time and the love is gone. can't buy me love.

[jchasse]

an exact replica of Summit Mountain Bikes in Canton, CT c. 1991. (with 1991 prices, of course)

[1centaur]

How does a business with low profitability and high inventory costs be "great?"

First, greatness has to be defined as the greatest good for the greatest number (utilitarianism in capitalist clothing). So espresso is out because many more people would opt for other things if there were trade-offs, and there are.

Second, it starts with ownership/management with vision, determination, great hiring skills, business savvy and possibly a good location. If there are 6 major league stores in a town, I just eliminated 4 of them from the greatness sweepstakes, because that kind of management talent in retail is RARE.

Third, the store has to have made it, be making it, or think it really will make it financially at the time the customer seeking greatness interacts with it, or the feeling of impending doom will be transmitted somehow, making greatness impossible.

All that in place, what makes for greatness in an LBS is the same in most retail that's not swimming in margin (Apple): execution of the mission. That means the employees are polite, knowledgeable, free of condescension, empowered to please the customer, prompt, skillful (wrenches), and have good listening and speaking skills. The inventory must maximize its turnover by being the right stuff at the right price more than the opposite, and the employees must know how to connect the customers with the inventory without pushing the wrong stuff.

Phew, super tough business. No wonder so many customers shop on the Net where the promptness, right inventory and communication elements are so well taken care of most of the time (i.e., it's not all about price point) by eliminating the dysfunctional employee interface.

In the real world, even a good shop owner in a good location will struggle with the reality of the employees that can be paid for by low margin, and will make inventory mistakes that hurt, and will have bad days that the Net does not have. We have to enjoy them for what they're good at and try to overlook them for their shortcomings, as best we can. Kind of like any relationship.

[Marz]

Definitely Part 1 Koln Concert, especially opening notes, sublime.

[forrestw]

Your post pretty seriously pisses me off -- now it's late and I may not have even read it carefully, anyhow here are my thoughts.

I have easily 6 top tier LBSs to choose from and there are twice that many that really don't aim to service high end road bikes, so aren't in the running.

The LBS where I do 99% of my bike business comes damned close to my ideal. They've proved more likely than the competition to have oddball parts or be able to source them quickly, the fit department is second to none and they have a wide selection of good quality gear. They've treated me great over the years and we occasionally share a beer.

--

I would never expect someone to stay after their regular hours, miss their riding, be late to dinner unless I could do the same for them or a hell of a lot more in some unrelated way.

Free espresso?! coffee worth making good espresso is far from cheap.

I loan and borrow tools but I would never ask a bike shop to loan me a tool. period.

A shop that wants to stay in business will charge 50% extra if you want to watch, double if you want to help. Many good LBSs offer maintenance classes, this is a separate service from doing repairs.

...

Sadly, I have teammates who admit they shop and check fit at shop that sponsors us and then make their purchases online. I've never done that crap and never will. I don't make every purchase at the LBS, those I do, I do ethically.

I have another teammate who loves to dump on the same shop, brags on how he takes his gear to a competitor for repairs because he doesn't think our sponsor shop is as competent. Funny thing about this. I'm as capable a mechanic as the better LBS wrenches and a damn sight better than the average 'pro', while this guy both doesn't know how to tune a drivetrain and has a demonstrated (and admitted) ability to break gear. While he's undoubtedly a money-maker, I sure wouldn't want him for a customer.

Note, my name is hardly hidden in my handle, so acquaintance X above can read exactly what I think in B&W archived on the 'net for ever but I think he already knows so what's the damage?

[fogrider]

there are many good shops in san fran....in addition to bespoke, there is tony's odyssey just on the other side of the bridge, roaring mouse, dd cycles, and the nook just to mention a few.

[beeatnik]

There isn't a single great LBS in LA. I would imagine that's the case in cities not known as Portland, Boulder, San Diego, San Francisco, New York, Chicago, Minneapolis, Seattle and Milwaukee.

[Stan Lee]

Bicycling just did a top 50 in the US-
http://www.bicycling.com/maintenance/featured-stories/hallowed-ground-best-bike-shops?cm_mmc=BicyclingNL-_-697460-_-09292011-_-on_hallowed_ground%3A_the_best_bike_shops

[Kontact]

Bicycling just did a top 50 in the US-
http://www.bicycling.com/maintenance/featured-stories/hallowed-ground-best-bike-shops?cm_mmc=BicyclingNL-_-697460-_-09292011-_-on_hallowed_ground%3A_the_best_bike_shops
A list that includes Milwaukee's "Wheel and Sprocket", or "Spoke and Stick-It", as we called it when I lived nearby.

Beware silly lists. I'm willing to bet that quite a few of the entries on that list are real eye rollers for locals.

[EvanOT]

A list that includes Milwaukee's "Wheel and Sprocket", or "Spoke and Stick-It", as we called it when I lived nearby.

Beware silly lists. I'm willing to bet that quite a few of the entries on that list are real eye rollers for locals.
I can honestly say Above Category is 100% legitimate, they totally deserve to be on that list.

[oldpotatoe]

Who is going to pay for the espresso, loaner tools, employees with nothing to do, open layaways on dated merchandise, shop funded warranties and online prices (same as wholesale cost)? :confused:

It must be incredibly frustrating owning a bike shop and having people hope or expect for shops to operate at negative cash flow. :crap:

So, you sell one $2500 bicycle and made maybe 25% of that after overhead. Then you add espresso, $15 an hour for informational employees and a couple hundred in tools for customers. Then the $2500 bike breaks out of warranty and and the replacement frame costs the shop more than what they profitted on the sale. All parts are being sold at cost, so the only money maker is labor, which you're discouraging by loaning tools and answering any question. How much did the shop make, and how long will it exist?


I work at an EXCELLENT shop. We do spend a lot of time with customers, are flexible with hours, sweat the insurance claims, don't charge for warranty rebuilds on broken frames and minimize labor costs by charging a la carte. Yet we wouldn't make this list because the shop makes money by actually charging for the rest of it.

This thread is SO frustrating.

Excellent post Mr Kontact...yep, as a bike shop owner, it is a bit frustrating reading this thread.

To say there is a different perspective from customer to employer/employee is putting it mildly.

I would love to sit down with a few 'customers' and try to explain margin and what the minimum required is. Try to explain that making $100 on a $2500 group isn't 'margin' and altho I 'make' $100, I'm loosing money doing that.

I think I'll once again tap out before I get too pissed off. Good post from Forrestw as well

[oldpotatoe]

Bicycling just did a top 50 in the US-
http://www.bicycling.com/maintenance/featured-stories/hallowed-ground-best-bike-shops?cm_mmc=BicyclingNL-_-697460-_-09292011-_-on_hallowed_ground%3A_the_best_bike_shops

Top 100 and I'm on that somewhere. Phone interview..best advertising is the free type. Some are great choices, some ARE eye-rollers.

[Skrawny]

there are many good shops in san fran....in addition to bespoke, there is tony's odyssey just on the other side of the bridge, roaring mouse, dd cycles, and the nook just to mention a few.


I agree, and note that Bicycling listed none of those in top 50...
Maybe they didn't chose to advertise enough. :rolleyes:

-s

[Stan Lee]

I agree, and note that Bicycling listed none of those in top 50...
Maybe they didn't chose to advertise enough. :rolleyes:

-s

Personally, I never believe anything I read. What I take from a list like that is if I'm in a town with a shop that made it I would try to make a visit. I'm involved with a shop that made the list and we've never advertised a day in our lives- how we got on there I have no idea but it's nice to be noticed.

[deechee]

That's all there is. My LBS is honest with me, and I am with them.

[FlashUNC]

That's all there is. My LBS is honest with me, and I am with them.

+1.

You can cut out all the frills and whatnot, and that's all it basically comes down to.

[bfd]

I agree, and note that Bicycling listed none of those in top 50...
Maybe they didn't chose to advertise enough. :rolleyes:

-s

If you're into "list," may be a better choice would be this one:

http://www.classicrendezvous.com/Bike_Shops/Bike_shops.htm

I've been to about 1/2 dozen of the shops on the CR list and they're great! Good Luck!

[fiamme red]

Bicycling just did a top 50 in the US-
http://www.bicycling.com/maintenance/featured-stories/hallowed-ground-best-bike-shops?cm_mmc=BicyclingNL-_-697460-_-09292011-_-on_hallowed_ground%3A_the_best_bike_shopsR&A in Brooklyn is one of the top 50? Ha ha!!! :rolleyes: :p

[christian]

I've been to a lot of the NE shops and agree that most of them are good. But yeah, R&A shocked me. They have lots of inventory. That's about the only good thing I can say about them.

[Ti Designs]

A shop where the staff earns the respect of the customers (being the manager of some department is only a title, it doesn't earn anything) and the customers have the respect of the staff.

[biker72]

You can't please all the customers all the time.
Case in point:
Customer brings in a bike for repair. The customer is advised the repair will equal the value of the bike. No problem...fix it.
The bike sits in the completed rack for 6 months. The customer has been called numerous times and is told the bike will be sold if he doesn’t come pick it up. After sitting in the rack for 7 months, the bike was sold.

Customer sues bike shop for selling his bike.

[Frankwurst]

Your post pretty seriously pisses me off -- now it's late and I may not have even read it carefully, anyhow here are my thoughts.

I have easily 6 top tier LBSs to choose from and there are twice that many that really don't aim to service high end road bikes, so aren't in the running.

The LBS where I do 99% of my bike business comes damned close to my ideal. They've proved more likely than the competition to have oddball parts or be able to source them quickly, the fit department is second to none and they have a wide selection of good quality gear. They've treated me great over the years and we occasionally share a beer.

--

I would never expect someone to stay after their regular hours, miss their riding, be late to dinner unless I could do the same for them or a hell of a lot more in some unrelated way.

Free espresso?! coffee worth making good espresso is far from cheap.

I loan and borrow tools but I would never ask a bike shop to loan me a tool. period.

A shop that wants to stay in business will charge 50% extra if you want to watch, double if you want to help. Many good LBSs offer maintenance classes, this is a separate service from doing repairs.

...

Sadly, I have teammates who admit they shop and check fit at shop that sponsors us and then make their purchases online. I've never done that crap and never will. I don't make every purchase at the LBS, those I do, I do ethically.

I have another teammate who loves to dump on the same shop, brags on how he takes his gear to a competitor for repairs because he doesn't think our sponsor shop is as competent. Funny thing about this. I'm as capable a mechanic as the better LBS wrenches and a damn sight better than the average 'pro', while this guy both doesn't know how to tune a drivetrain and has a demonstrated (and admitted) ability to break gear. While he's undoubtedly a money-maker, I sure wouldn't want him for a customer.

Note, my name is hardly hidden in my handle, so acquaintance X above can read exactly what I think in B&W archived on the 'net for ever but I think he already knows so what's the damage?

You have both stones and a great attitude. My hats off to you. :beer: